A very critical difference between the old and new covenants

[Jason0047]

In other words, think of the Old Testament as an apple seed and the New Testament as an apple tree. The OT saint was justified by faith in the Lord and by looking ahead to the Promises that would be fulfilled in the Messiah (i.e. Jesus Christ).

For Jesus said, I came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it. Meaning if I took a hammer and smashed the apple seed it could not be fulfilled into it's true intended purpose, --- so the Old was necessary part in order for the New to take place. For if I planted that apple seed in the ground, that means the apple seed would be fulfilled in becoming an apple tree (As it was meant to be). Jesus obeyed the Law perfectly and fulfilled it on our behalf so He can impute His righteousness to us when we repent of our sins and accept Him as our Savior. Then Christ is able to work His righteousness (According to His Word) thru us from that point (And not our own righteousness).

The animal sacrifices of the Old was a big part of the entire Old Testament. For without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. But the animals sacrifices never took away sin for good, though. No Law could take away sin for good. Only Christ's perfect sacrifice could do that. So we are saved by seeking His mercy and believing in His death, burial, and resurrection by faith; Because God loves us and He desires in wanting to have mercy upon on us so as to save us. God wants to save us! For He is our Savior! God doesn't want us to be our own Saviors. For we are saved by His Grace, and by His mercy, and by the washing of the regeneration of the Holy Ghost and not of works of righteousness of which we have done (Titus 3:5).

 

[Elin]

I ask all of you that believe this to do this one thing. Show me what other rewards there are.

The only reward in my bible is salvation, the gift of eternal life in heaven. That is the only reward that God speaks of, that He exhorts us to obtain.
My bible has no mention of any other reward. If it isn't in the bible it isn't true. The bible is the truth. It is the word of God.

Please explain the meaning of the following, being true to all its words:

"But each should be careful how he builds.
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw (useless),
his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.
It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.
If what he built survives, he will receive his reward.
If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved,
but only as one escaping through the flames." (1Co 3:10-15)

 

[kennethcadwell]

I would encourage you to study the first half of Titus 3:5 for about a week or so in deep prayer with God, my friend.

I have read that, and I do understand that.
This verse in Titus is not saying that works are not needed, it is referring to those who believe their works earned their way into salvation. We do not earn our salvation, for it is given by His mercy.
The issue is that this does not cancel out obedience as needed, and as you can tell from the end of Titus 3:5 its still refers to baptism and the receiving of the Holy Spirit. If you think a person can go to heaven by disobeying the Lord by living in willful sin, and not doing what He said for us to do then you are misreading this verse. The bible clearly shows over and over again that obedience is required as well as obeying the Lord's commandments.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Salvation is not lost when reward is lost for no quality in one's Christian work (1Co 3:14-15).

Once again I will say this again, the scriptures I posted from the bible in post #2 is not about rewards, they are about salvation.

 

[Elin]

I just cannot see that all of these WARNINGS are concerning the gaining or losing of rewards!.

Rewards are not about eternal life,
they are about the quality of the born again's work.
Eternal life is not at stake in the rewards.

Read my post #2, those scriptures have nothing to do about rewards and yet still show no salvation if obedience to the ways of the Lord are not followed.

Salvation is not lost when reward is lost for no quality in one's Christian work (1Co 3:14-15).

 

[secularhermit]

Grace existed from the biginning.

Jesus do not invalidate the OT but, you believe what you believed.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Salvation is not lost when reward is lost for no quality in one's Christian work (1Co 3:14-15).

You keep posting this scripture, and we all know about it.
This is speaking of believers and how obedient they were to the Lord, if you build on your faith as an obedient servant should do you will receive rewards in heaven, but if you are not so well obedient what you have done will be burnt up and will receive no reward. However like I said before, the scriptures I gave in post #2 is not about rewards.
The bible makes it clear that a complete disobedience to Him will lead you to the lake of fire.


[h=1]Luke 12:47-48[/h]47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.


We are His servants here on earth, and been entrusted with the Holy Spirit as our helper, and given the message of salvation to be charged to bring it to others. To bring the message of love, mercy, forgiveness, and to help them in times of need. We are required to obey and follow His ways. If we do not obey His teachings and commands there is punishment for that. Sorry, but I don't see punishment issued in heaven anywhere in the bible, so you can see were the disobedient servant will go and it is not heaven.

 

[AtonedFor]

Originally Posted by Jason0047

I would encourage you to study the first half of Titus 3:5
for about a week or so in deep prayer with God, my friend.

This verse in Titus is not saying that works are not needed,
it is referring to those who believe their works earned their way into salvation.
We do not earn our salvation, for it is given by His mercy.

Indeed, the first half of Titus 3:5 is merely saying that
salvation was NOT INITIALLY earned by living righteously
but it was freely given through God's mercy, etc.

IMO, the false teachers (who are not listening to the Holy Spirit)
need to understand verses 3--7.

 

[The_highwayman]

many people who reject God do those things.

people take talents given them by God and make a prophet, they give to the poor, they feed the poor, they visit people in jail.

those things do not mean anything, except Gods children WILL do those, only not out of need, but out of LOVE

In fact a true child of God can do those things, and it be sin, because the attitude in which they do them.

sin is an attitude, not an act, the act is a result of the attitude. A moral good deed can be sin if the attitude for which it is done is wrong.

The Bible says you are wrong on sin, it has never been defined ever as an act but a CHOICE.
Gen 3, James 1 and 1 John 2 prove that sin is a choice and not an act.

Eve chose to listen to the serpent, let her senses entice her and that brought forth SIN.

SIN only becomes SIN when you allow yourself to be tempted by your own lust and enticed, then when your lust is conceived it brings forth sin.

YOu can chose not to SIN and be enticed by your lust[flesh/senses]

Your statment would indicate Eve has no choice and she did. You seem to invalidate the whole Biblical principal of partaking of the divine nature and transforming your mind.

 

[AtonedFor]

The Bible says you (eternally-grateful) are wrong on sin,
it has never been defined ever as an act but a CHOICE.
Gen 3, James 1 and 1 John 2 prove that sin is a choice and not an act.
Eve chose to listen to the serpent, let her senses entice her and that brought forth SIN.
SIN only becomes SIN when you allow yourself to be tempted by your own lust
and enticed, then when your lust is conceived it brings forth sin.
You can chose not to SIN and be enticed by your lust [flesh/senses]

AMEN, bro!

In my experience, most members of Christian forums
fight against the truth and reality of FREE WILL.

IMO, this is because they prefer to believe that God CHOSE them,
and will keep them ... no matter what they do, how they live, and etc.

The concept of NO free-will removes the believer's accountability and responsibility!

 

[Elin]

After the initial free gift of grace through faith, it's all conditional.
The Key … Are God's grace and Jesus' enormous sacrifice
really appreciated enough for one to be obedient?

Because of man's inherited sinful nature,
and the many dozens of WARNINGS (some actually threaten loss of eternal life),
we understand that …
GRACE is simply that anyone at all has a chance of gaining heaven!
GRACE is the free unwarranted gift of OPPORTUNITY!

But Scripture does not present grace as "opportunity,"
rather it presents grace as effectual, as power at work.
Effectual grace accomplishes its work completely and permanently.

Scripture likewise presents several effects of grace, none of which are conditional or fleeting;
for example,

regenerating grace (Jn 1:13, 3:5; Jas 1:18; 1Pe 1:23),
believing grace (Ac 18:27),
saving grace (Eph 2:8-9),
enabling grace (Php 2:13),
healing grace (Jas 5:15),

all of which are irrevocable.

I just cannot see that all of these WARNINGS are concerning the gaining or losing of rewards!
To me, it's a matter of whether we are willing to ignore the Lord's warnings,
or worse yet, to call Him (and the epistle writers) bluffers, deceivers, or liars!
I am not.

The purpose of the warnings in Scripture is to show the difference between true saving faith and
false faith (not of grace) which does not save, so that the believer knows The Way (early name for Christianity)
of true saving faith.
Those who do not heed the warnings show their faith is false (not of grace) and does not save.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Remember, the new does not abolish punishment for disobedience to the governing authority
or of the law (Ro 1-2, 4).

Yes, I agree, if the governing authority imposes a penalty for a particular sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi, Jason,

I enjoy your good posts, but I think if you will look into it, you will find the "Old" Covenant refers to the temporary Mosaic (Sinaitic) Covenant of the blood of bulls and goats, and does not refer to the Abrahamic covenant.

yes, they are two different agreements, One was given as an unconditional promise, One was given as a conditional agreement.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I ask all of you that believe this to do this one thing. Show me what other rewards there are.

The only reward in my bible is salvation, the gift of eternal life in heaven. That is the only reward that God speaks of, that He exhorts us to obtain. My bible has no mention of any other reward. If it isn't in the bible it isn't true. The bible is the truth. It is the word of God.

Um. Eternal life is a gift, Not a reward.

Many rewards are given, the crown of life, the crown of righteousness, Gold silver precious stones, Even wood hay and straw for the times we mess up.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have read that, and I do understand that.
This verse in Titus is not saying that works are not needed, it is referring to those who believe their works earned their way into salvation. We do not earn our salvation, for it is given by His mercy.
The issue is that this does not cancel out obedience as needed, and as you can tell from the end of Titus 3:5 its still refers to baptism and the receiving of the Holy Spirit. If you think a person can go to heaven by disobeying the Lord by living in willful sin, and not doing what He said for us to do then you are misreading this verse. The bible clearly shows over and over again that obedience is required as well as obeying the Lord's commandments.

you contradict yourself (I know you have me on ignore, but I promised I would still confront you for the purpose of others who may read your posts)

1. You said it says we cannot work to earn salvation.

2. You counter that by saying obedience is REQUIRED (ie, works are required to earn salvation)

3. As for the end...the washing of regeneration and renewal, was preformed by the HS, Not by man in some tank of water or riverbed. (washing ans renewal OF THE HOLY SPIRIT) it is quite clear who is doing the washing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Indeed, the first half of Titus 3:5 is merely saying that
salvation was NOT INITIALLY earned by living righteously
but it was freely given through God's mercy, etc.

IMO, the false teachers (who are not listening to the Holy Spirit)
need to understand verses 3--7.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, [SUP]5 [/SUP]not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]6 [/SUP]whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, [SUP]7 [/SUP]that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1. We were sinners, just like every other human who ever lived.
2. Not by works of righteousness (good deeds and moral good) which we have done, he saved us (permanently and forever) by the washing and renewal of the HS (god performed the work, that is why it is perfect work of God, and perfect salvation)
3. God pours abundantly (well more than enough, not just enough, but to overflowing) the Holy Spirit through jesus, ore than enough to save us forever.
4. That we who are justified by FAITH, should (will) become heirs according to the HOPE (one does not have hope if it is not assured, only fear) of eternal life.

quite simple if people just read it. and take literally what it says, and do not try to twist it all over the place.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Bible says you are wrong on sin, it has never been defined ever as an act but a CHOICE.
Gen 3, James 1 and 1 John 2 prove that sin is a choice and not an act.

Eve chose to listen to the serpent, let her senses entice her and that brought forth SIN.

SIN only becomes SIN when you allow yourself to be tempted by your own lust and enticed, then when your lust is conceived it brings forth sin.

YOu can chose not to SIN and be enticed by your lust[flesh/senses]

Your statment would indicate Eve has no choice and she did. You seem to invalidate the whole Biblical principal of partaking of the divine nature and transforming your mind.

Maybe you misunder stood me, if so ,Forgive me.

again, sin is an attitude. I can give 1000 dollars to church looking for praise and glory and expecting to recieve something in return. That act was a sin, caused by an attitude of self righteousness.

if I do it out of love of the body of Christ, and expect nothing in return (not even praise) then I do it out of love this is an act of righteousness which glorifies God.

that is what I was trying to say.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

AMEN, bro!

In my experience, most members of Christian forums
fight against the truth and reality of FREE WILL.

IMO, this is because they prefer to believe that God CHOSE them,
and will keep them ... no matter what they do, how they live, and etc.

The concept of NO free-will removes the believer's accountability and responsibility!

there are very few calvanists here, do not judge on keywords, Listen to everything someone says,

I myself am no calvanist, and reject their election (lack of free will) doctrines.

 

[Elin]

AMEN, bro!

In my experience, most members of Christian forums
fight against the truth and reality of FREE WILL.

IMO, this is because they prefer to believe that God CHOSE them,
and will keep them ... no matter what they do, how they live, and etc.

The concept of NO free-will removes the believer's accountability and responsibility!

You are not taking into account the effectual grace of God which keeps them in The Way (Jn 10:28;
1Pe 1:5) of obedience.

Effectual grace causes one to willingly choose to obey (Php 2:13).

 

[VioletReigns]

It is God who called me, Jesus Christ who saved me and the Holy Spirit who changes me and makes me more like Christ.

It is the difference between the outward man and the inward man. It is the difference between doing and being. It is the difference between the flesh and the spirit. It is the difference between a child in kindergarten who is obeying the teacher's instructions and the mature adult who, by association with the Teacher, has now taken on the nature of the Teacher and just follows. It is the difference between life and death.

When I stand in glory, you can bet I will not proclaim with the goats, "Lord, Lord, I have obeyed these things in your name as you have instructed." I guarantee you I will stand with the sheep and say, "Lord, did I do anything that was of any worth?" Because I cannot see anything good in me except for Him. I only see worthiness in Jesus Christ.

I know of a certainty that the grace of Jesus Christ keeps me. I am more surprised than anyone that His grace is that amazing and powerful. I am in awe that as weak and stupid and feeble as I am in my flesh, the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ guides me step by step every single day and I hear His voice. And He hears me! If I hid anything in my heart from Him, He wouldn't hear me, right? But He hears all of my prayers and answers me in greater measure than I even imagine! His love is THAT mighty!! How can I deny the grace of Jesus Christ when it is that very grace that is keeping me in fellowship with Him? The Lord proves Himself to us, not the other way around.

It is the difference between my own understanding and surrendering my whole mind to Jesus Christ. And even in surrendering, what choice did I have? When the weight of the glory of God falls on you in the grace of Jesus Christ, you are changed. We couldn’t turn back even if we wanted to as we are His glorious prisoners. Nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. To the world it may be foolishness. But to the children of God, Jesus is life.