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This reminds me of one congregation i was invited to here in miami, were the speaker preach funds for a new building and the mammon that they were setting aside for the poor, was no longer set aside for the poor but for a new building. Interesting that the speaker, was the very same man that instituted this so called church for God will supposedly uh huh...
The man clearly stated in front of that congregation, or people lost or believers. Don't worry the poor will be a ok , the government has institutions to help them get food,cloth,shelter.
Now my mind ponder , what would Jesus said if he would of hear such a thing in His Church.
I have no issues calling out the name of this place, it was called calvary wynwood in miami .Yeah they could rock a concert with lights and smoke to entertain the crowd. But when the congregation agree with this point of view. who are the people in this church and what spirit is in there.
It's not the Holy Spirit that for sure.
Such men are not from God, they are self appointed, The book of Jude & 2 Peter 2 clearly states they are reserved for Darkness , no need to prayer for such men.
Take care and Keep our eyes on the things that please God in Jesus mighty name amen.
Shalom
The man clearly stated in front of that congregation, or people lost or believers. Don't worry the poor will be a ok , the government has institutions to help them get food,cloth,shelter.
Now my mind ponder , what would Jesus said if he would of hear such a thing in His Church.
I have no issues calling out the name of this place, it was called calvary wynwood in miami .Yeah they could rock a concert with lights and smoke to entertain the crowd. But when the congregation agree with this point of view. who are the people in this church and what spirit is in there.
It's not the Holy Spirit that for sure.
Such men are not from God, they are self appointed, The book of Jude & 2 Peter 2 clearly states they are reserved for Darkness , no need to prayer for such men.
Take care and Keep our eyes on the things that please God in Jesus mighty name amen.
Shalom
Gaah! I watched the video. (The gaah is about the Obama remarks).
As for the words apostasia and harpazo, and the examples of exactly where they are used in verses, I found it interesting, but I just don't know...the two words do seem to have a different meaning from each other where they are used and I would think Paul (at least) would be consistent in his use of them as words with different meanings. But, in fact, the other places where the word apostasia is used, it means, very simply, a departing from. Whereas harpazo in each instance is stronger - a seizing. It would actually make more sense to me, given the following verses, that it is a departing of the Holy Spirit.
As to my whole gaaah! thing, the Holy Spirit has seemed to confirm to me many times over many years that Obama is not going anywhere and that something is going to happen to keep him in his place. But to say he is the beast, as the man in the video says, would be overstepping what the Spirit has confirmed to me. I have wondered a lot of things, like whether it will be tsunamis hitting both coasts, since this has also been confirmed to me by the Spirit, but that would be overstepping also on my part. While these tsunamis were confirmed, it was NOT confirmed that it would be what kept him in his place. For all I know, riots will keep the election from happening or someone will be assassinated or an election will happen, but something will prevent the swearing in. For all I know, fifty years of time could be between the elections and the tsunamis. So I am careful, though I wasn't at first, to strictly separate what has been specifically and repeatedly confirmed to me and what is just conjecture on my part. So...that's where the gaaah! springs from. Most days I am just clueless other than the specific confirmations. And I certainly don't expect anyone to take my confirmations if He isn't confirming the same things to them. I mostly just hang around waiting to see if I've heard Him correctly. I'll know soon enough whether I'm insane.
As for the words apostasia and harpazo, and the examples of exactly where they are used in verses, I found it interesting, but I just don't know...the two words do seem to have a different meaning from each other where they are used and I would think Paul (at least) would be consistent in his use of them as words with different meanings. But, in fact, the other places where the word apostasia is used, it means, very simply, a departing from. Whereas harpazo in each instance is stronger - a seizing. It would actually make more sense to me, given the following verses, that it is a departing of the Holy Spirit.
As to my whole gaaah! thing, the Holy Spirit has seemed to confirm to me many times over many years that Obama is not going anywhere and that something is going to happen to keep him in his place. But to say he is the beast, as the man in the video says, would be overstepping what the Spirit has confirmed to me. I have wondered a lot of things, like whether it will be tsunamis hitting both coasts, since this has also been confirmed to me by the Spirit, but that would be overstepping also on my part. While these tsunamis were confirmed, it was NOT confirmed that it would be what kept him in his place. For all I know, riots will keep the election from happening or someone will be assassinated or an election will happen, but something will prevent the swearing in. For all I know, fifty years of time could be between the elections and the tsunamis. So I am careful, though I wasn't at first, to strictly separate what has been specifically and repeatedly confirmed to me and what is just conjecture on my part. So...that's where the gaaah! springs from. Most days I am just clueless other than the specific confirmations. And I certainly don't expect anyone to take my confirmations if He isn't confirming the same things to them. I mostly just hang around waiting to see if I've heard Him correctly. I'll know soon enough whether I'm insane.
Brother Ahwatukee,
I'm going to have to disagree on this one.
Acts 2:15-21, 16 & 20 & 21.
V 16, "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel."
Peter said that the Day of Pentecost was the fulfillment of that scripture.
V 20, ".....before that great and notable day of the Lord come:"
V 21, "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Jerusalem was destroyed 35-37 yrs later.
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And the hour of "trial" in Rev 3:10 is not said to be a 7 year trib period, that is an assumption on your part.
I'm going to have to disagree on this one.
Acts 2:15-21, 16 & 20 & 21.
V 16, "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel."
Peter said that the Day of Pentecost was the fulfillment of that scripture.
V 20, ".....before that great and notable day of the Lord come:"
V 21, "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Jerusalem was destroyed 35-37 yrs later.
==================
And the hour of "trial" in Rev 3:10 is not said to be a 7 year trib period, that is an assumption on your part.
The final day of the Lord, against the world, is at the 2nd resurrection,
When restored to Jerusalem, Israel is destroyed. (7th trumpet, fire from heaven R 20). (This event is about to happen)
(There are only 2 resurrections 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24, Jesus and then those at His coming.)
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The day of the Lord against Jerusalem has no resurrection associated with it.
It is shown in Acts 2:16-21, R 6:12-17 6th seal.
When restored to Jerusalem, Israel is destroyed. (7th trumpet, fire from heaven R 20). (This event is about to happen)
(There are only 2 resurrections 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24, Jesus and then those at His coming.)
--
The day of the Lord against Jerusalem has no resurrection associated with it.
It is shown in Acts 2:16-21, R 6:12-17 6th seal.
So ahwatukee, since popeye started this thread and ask the question for post-triblationist to supply just one verse supporting our view, then I have a question for you both? In the whole book of 1 Thessalonians can you please show me one verse that supports or teaches that the timing of the pre-trib rapture is before the great tribulation? Just one verse?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
So ahwatukee, since popeye started this thread and ask the question for post-triblationist to supply just one verse supporting our view, then I have a question for you both? In the whole book of 1 Thessalonians can you please show me one verse that supports or teaches that the timing of the pre-trib rapture is before the great tribulation? Just one verse?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
There is no specific scripture that identifies the timing of the gathering of the church, but is deduced by cross-referencing the scriptures having to do with this subject. For example, in between where we are right now and the time that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, the wrath of God must take place. Regarding this time of wrath, we have scriptures that state the following for living believers:
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
The coming wrath of God will take place during that last seven years via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will be the fulfillment of "the day of the Lord." The OT prophets as well as the apostles wrote about the day of the Lord:
"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth, declares the Lord. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” (Zeph.1:1-3)
"I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir." (Isa.13:12)
The description of the coming wrath above, is supported by the detailed account of the fatalities resulting from the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. There are only two places within those judgments that give a percentage of the fatalities as a result of God's wrath. The first one is at the 4th seal, where a fourth of the earth's population is killed and the other is at the 6th trumpet, where a third of the earth's population is killed. With just those two combined and based on 7 billion people, the total number of fatalities would be approximately 4.5 billion people and that is not including the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1, 2 and three nor the bowl judgments.
I said all that to give a description of the severity and magnitude of the coming wrath, which brings me back to the scriptures that I provided above, which shows that believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer that coming wrath described or any wrath for that matter. And therefore, the gathering of the church must take place prior to the first seal being opened, which is what begins that time of wrath, with the Lamb as the One who is breaking the seals. That is just one example. Here is another.
Some expositors claim that the gathering of the church takes place at the same time that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. But they fail to recognize the fact that in Rev.19:11-21, which is a detailed account of the Lord's return to end the age, that as Christ is descending from heaven, there is an army following him out of heaven, riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and clean. The clothing that this army is significant in that, the bride/church is shown receiving fine linen, white and clean in Rev.19:6-8, the same clothing that is being worn by those who are following Christ out of heaven on white horses.
As further support of these on white horses as being the church, Rev.17:14 identifies those who will be with Christ as he returns as His "called, chosen and faithful followers." I said all of that to demonstrate that, since the bride is shown receiving her robes of righteousness in heaven, at the wedding of the Lamb and we see that army wearing those same robes of righteousness and riding on white horses, this all demonstrates that the church is already in heaven and will be following Christ out of it when he ends the age.
"Hallelujah!For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Rev.19:6-8)
"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (Rev.19:14)
To answer your question, the timing of the gathering of the church is deduced by comparing all relevant scriptures in order to the big picture of when this event takes place. The problem that we have is that when we provide this information, there are always those who will, instead of taking these proofs into consideration, will instead distort or circumvent the scriptures and that because they are only concerned about protecting what they have learned from false teachers, books, you tube, websites and the like. All they do is repeat what they have been told.
There are many more scriptures to compare regarding the issue of the timing of the gathering of the church, but I will leave you with those in this post. I hope that this is beneficial to you.
O
Sometimes a little cultural context is helpful inunderstanding difficult passages of scripture.
In ancient Jewish cities, whenever a high ranking official (like a King – hint, hint) was expected, the watchmen on the towers would blow the trumpet when they sawhim approaching in the distance. At the sound of the trumpet, the elders wouldgather, go outside the city gates andmeet the official before he reached the city. They would then accompany himinto the city in what amounted to a parade.
Now, just for giggles, let’s apply this information to the scriptures beingused in this thread. You know, the scriptures written by Jews who lived inJewish culture?
In ancient Jewish cities, whenever a high ranking official (like a King – hint, hint) was expected, the watchmen on the towers would blow the trumpet when they sawhim approaching in the distance. At the sound of the trumpet, the elders wouldgather, go outside the city gates andmeet the official before he reached the city. They would then accompany himinto the city in what amounted to a parade.
Now, just for giggles, let’s apply this information to the scriptures beingused in this thread. You know, the scriptures written by Jews who lived inJewish culture?
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P
While the OP waits for Bible verses that support a post trib rapture, I still await a single verse which supports any rapture at all, a word that is not even in the Bible. No "rapture" in the Bible! Or show me where the word appears!
We can call the gathering of 1 thes 4 whatever you are comfortable with.