According to Scripture Where Are the Dead?

[john832]

Hello prove-all


Second, the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable nor does it even read like a parable. It was an actual event that took place revealed by the Lord prior to his appearing in the flesh. The event reveals many things, one being that there is literal punishment after death for those who died without faith and that once there, there is no coming back. When the rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus back upon the earth to warn his brothers, he said that they have Moses and the prophets i.e. they have the word of God to warn them, just as people do today, but ignore. The basic meaning of this event of why the Lord revealed this is, don't be like the rich man or you will end up in the same place and condemned as he is.

First of all, IT IS A PARABLE. To whom was Christ speaking?

Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

So Christ was speaking to the Pharisees. OK, how did He speak to them...

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

Christ only spoke plainly to the disciples.

Lazarus and the Rich Man is a PARABLE.

Secondly, if you want to believe this is plain teaching, let's examine it...

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

So, those in hell can see the those who are saved?

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Why one drop of water on the tongue? Why doesn't he ask for a fire hose to be turned on him?

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Those who are saved can see and hear those in hell?

Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

If this is plain teaching, the the saved can do nothing to help those in hell. So what you are telling me is that there are saved mothers in heaven watching their unsaved children in hell writhing in pain, screaming and shrieking but can do nothing but helplessly watch them suffer for all eternity.

If this is the reward of the saved, please explain to me the difference between those saved and those in hell. Both are eternal torment.

Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Oh and by the way, if this is plain teaching, then we need to live by every word that is in the Law of Moses. Christ says so right here.

 

[john832]

The above are all the false teachings of men! The event of the rich man and Lazarus means exactly what it says. It is not a parable representing any of those things mentioned above. The great gulf or chasm that separated the place of paradise from the place of torment, was not representing the Jordan rift valley, but an actual chasm separating the two places.

All that you have done above, is to repeat false teachings. The real meaning of the rich man and Lazarus can be determined by reading and believing the literal context of what is written.

Please Stop symbolizing, parabolizing and allegorizing the literal word of God.

See my above post please.

 

[john832]

Prove all, you nailed it.

 

[prove-all]

Prove all, you nailed it.

well I copyed most from A friend that I forgot to give credit too


thank you, from your friend Richard

 

[EarsToHear]

The spirit rises and the flesh dies, as all spirits goes back to God who gave it.

Thank you! You’re pulling from the following.


Ecclesiastes 12:6-7
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern (flesh body dies).
7 Then shall the dust (flesh body) return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


Also, read the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Luke 16:19-31.

 

[john832]

Thank you! You’re pulling from the following.


Ecclesiastes 12:6-7
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern (flesh body dies).
7 Then shall the dust (flesh body) return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


Also, read the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Luke 16:19-31.

Just a note as to why Christ spoke in parables...

Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'HEARING YOU WILL HEAR AND SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND, AND SEEING YOU WILL SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE;

Christ spoke in parables to hide the meanings from those who are not called and had this particular miracle occur in their lives...

Luk 24:45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

This takes special intervention and is not a wholesale act. It is only done for those whom the Father calls in this age...

Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

Not all are called in this age. God has a 7000 year plan to save all mankind...

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Now this is not universal salvation, it plainly says God is not WILLING. If one does choose, in full knowledge of the truth, to reject God, then there is an end for them...

Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Mal 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Unfortunately, there are those who will choose to reject God's mercy and salvation but it will be the few, not the many.

There end result is not endless torment in an everburning fire, God simply puts them out of existence so they are not miserable and they do not make those around them miserable.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Word here for perish is...

ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Not life in hell, but death...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

God is merciful to even those who refuse, He does not allow them to suffer for eternity, He simply puts them out of existence.

 

[john832]

Thank you! You’re pulling from the following.


Ecclesiastes 12:6-7
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern (flesh body dies).
7 Then shall the dust (flesh body) return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


Also, read the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Luke 16:19-31.

Now let's examine absent from the body...

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Many people quote this verse out of context to prove immediate judgment and reward or punishment. This is not the meaning Paul intended. This statement is a colloquialism that Paul used. Let's see this...

1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

Where was Paul? In spirit present in heaven? Nope, he was not at Corinth but he was on the earth as a human being in the flesh.

Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

This verse clarifies what he meant by being absent from the body (the church) but present in spirit.

His colloquialism is separated from us by nearly 2000 years. Do we use any colloquialisms today that would be difficult for those 2000 years ago to understand. Think about it.

 

[Ahwatukee]

ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Hello John832,

Neither the words apollumi, apoleia or olethros, imply annihilation or extinction, but of ruination, complete loss of well being. How would you explain the following:

"And the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever, and they shall have no rest day or night."

In order for one to be tormented (tortured), one would have to exist in order to experience said torment. The words "no rest" ouk anapausis is defined as not having any cessation or intermission from said torment. That is just one example that for those who are thrown into the lake of fire will be conscious and aware and not annihilated.

By the way, your teaching is the same that Jehovah's witnesses teach.

 

[john832]

Hello John832,

Neither the words apollumi, apoleia or olethros, imply annihilation or extinction, but of ruination, complete loss of well being. How would you explain the following:

"And the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever, and they shall have no rest day or night."

In order for one to be tormented (tortured), one would have to exist in order to experience said torment. The words "no rest" ouk anapausis is defined as not having any cessation or intermission from said torment. That is just one example that for those who are thrown into the lake of fire will be conscious and aware and not annihilated.

By the way, your teaching is the same that Jehovah's witnesses teach.

No, I am emphatically not teaching what the JW's teach, I do not teach heaven as the reward of the saved nor eternity in hell.

 

[john832]

Hello John832,

Neither the words apollumi, apoleia or olethros, imply annihilation or extinction, but of ruination, complete loss of well being. How would you explain the following:

Regardless of their actual definition? Of course they mean death. The wages of sin is death, not life in some other place...

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The word here is...

מוּת
mûth
mooth
A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.

It means DEATH. Please not it is Hebrew and not Greek and it still agrees with the teachings in the New Testament. Let's go back to the garden...

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Notice, God did not say "be tormented in hell for eternity", He said they would die. Same word as in Ezekiel 18.

"And the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever, and they shall have no rest day or night."

In order for one to be tormented (tortured), one would have to exist in order to experience said torment. The words "no rest" ouk anapausis is defined as not having any cessation or intermission from said torment. That is just one example that for those who are thrown into the lake of fire will be conscious and aware and not annihilated.

By the way, your teaching is the same that Jehovah's witnesses teach.

Setting doctrine from a book that is allegory and metaphor is dangerous. Especially when it seems to indicate something different than many plain scriptures. Anyhoo...

The time frame is only about 3-1/2 years. Notice it applies to those who worship the Beast...

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

How long? Still burning after this?

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Not remembered? Even if they are still burning? Nope.

Here is the time frame of that event...

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Now, are the heavens and earth still burning at this time?

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

At the time God the Father comes to earth?

This phrase "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." was not a literal instruction.

If you want to set doctrine, do not use metaphors or parables, use straight forward teaching. The words of Christ are always a good place to start...

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Dagallen]

God the Father comes to earth ? Where is that in scriptures and in what manner ?

 

[john832]

God the Father comes to earth ? Where is that in scriptures and in what manner ?

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Notice verse 1? God and the Lamb. Where do they come to? Rev 21:1. The Throne of God comes down from heaven to earth.

 

[jb]

In other words, immediately after the flesh body dies, what happens?

You can find an indepth study Here on this subject...

 

[Dagallen]

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Notice verse 1? God and the Lamb. Where do they come to? Rev 21:1. The Throne of God comes down from heaven to earth.

That's a vision, as a vision is Spiritual, so the Spiritual comes down, so can you see the Spiritual ? It's the Spiritual throne of God that comes down, God and in addiction to God the Lamb comes down with Him, again, can you see the Spiritual throne of God with your physical eyes ?

 

[Dagallen]

It shall come shortly, how short ? Quickly ! Just because you can't see the Spiritual throne with your physical eyes, does not mean that it's not already, here, shortly, quickly we shall come and made Our ( plural ) home with you,

 

[john832]

It shall come shortly, how short ? Quickly ! Just because you can't see the Spiritual throne with your physical eyes, does not mean that it's not already, here, shortly, quickly we shall come and made Our ( plural ) home with you,

MBFM

(ten characters)

 

[TMS]

There are verses that both sides use to prove they are right from the Bible, but I don’t like to think that the word contradicts itself.
The answer to a simple question helps me to know what happens when you die.
Is man mortal or immortal?
How did God create him? Does he have a mortal nature or an immortal nature? According to the dictionary, the word “mortal” means “subject to death,” and the word “immortal” means “not subject to death.” Simply stated then, we are asking whether God created man with a nature that could die or with the power of an endless life. ???
Job 4:17, “Shall mortal man be more just than God? Shall a man be more pure than his maker?” There is the word we are looking for! Man is mortal. He is subject to death. God did not make him without the capacity to deteriorate and die. The fact is, only God has that inherent power of eternal existence.
God alone has immortality; He is the author of life. “King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen” 1 Timothy 6:15, 16.

Before you separate the body and the soul and confuse things remember that the human is mortal in every aspect, the Bible does not say that we are immortal in any way.

 

[MadebyHim]

i think the dead are taking a nap, waiting for the shout of our Lord Christ Jesus. Some people think loved ones are in heaven looking down on them. heaven is a wonderful place, no more pain, tears misery. So if our loved ones are looking down seeing the terrible things going on in the world, and watching family and friends suffer, would not be Heaven.

 

[TMS]

Can the soul die?
Well Satan made it his mission to lie about this and his first lie to Eve was exactly that.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
There are many teaching the same today, and no wonder when you think of the teachings of ancestor-worship in the Chinese culture which was rooted in the belief that the soul did not die and Egyptian pyramid hieroglyphics which teaches a naturally immortal soul. The Hindus believe strongly in reincarnation and transmi- gration of the soul and the darkest African voodoo ceremonies are built around the concept of an undying soul. Satan has been working hard from day one and I can understand why so many are deceived but the Bible does not teach that the soul is immortal.

Ezekiel 18:4 “Behold, all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die”.
This firmly establishes that the soul is definitely not immortal by nature, the soul is not naturally immortal.
Jesus, declared that the soul could die, in Matthew 10:28. “And fear not them which kill the body … but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
The clearest and most concise inspired definition of death was written by Solomon, Ecclesiastes 12:7 “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”.

Don't teach the same lie that the serpent tricked Eve with.

 

[TMS]

i think the dead are taking a nap, waiting for the shout of our Lord Christ Jesus. Some people think loved ones are in heaven looking down on them. heaven is a wonderful place, no more pain, tears misery. So if our loved ones are looking down seeing the terrible things going on in the world, and watching family and friends suffer, would not be Heaven.

I agree, and i think our understanding of what God is like is shaped by this subject. I believe in a God that allows the dead to rest in a state of peace (sleep) not aware of the sin happening to the living, and will raise the saved all at the same time to be with Him for ever.