According to Scripture Where Are the Dead?

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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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#41
i think the dead are taking a nap, waiting for the shout of our Lord Christ Jesus. Some people think loved ones are in heaven looking down on them. heaven is a wonderful place, no more pain, tears misery. So if our loved ones are looking down seeing the terrible things going on in the world, and watching family and friends suffer, would not be Heaven.
Hello MadebyHim,

"These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles.

Kinda hard for the faithful to be a witness if they're sleeping. Regarding this, the reference to "sleep" pertains only to the body, ,as there is ample scripture which demonstrates the conscious, awareness of the spirit/soul after death. The rich man and Lazarus is one, the souls under the altar at the opening of the 5th seal is another, Jesus telling the man crucified next to him that he would be in paradise with him that very day, Moses and Elijah meeting with Jesus when he was transfigured and many more.



 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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#42
I agree, and i think our understanding of what God is like is shaped by this subject. I believe in a God that allows the dead to rest in a state of peace (sleep) not aware of the sin happening to the living, and will raise the saved all at the same time to be with Him for ever.
Hello TMS,

Scripture is clear that when believers in Christ die, their spirit departs from the body and goes immediately to be in the presence of Christ - Phil.1:23, 2 Cor.5:6-8, Rev.6:9-11

According to Luke 16:19-31, when the unrighteous die, the spirit departs and ends up in Hades where they begin their punishment.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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#43
Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

According to the scripture "the dead know not any thing", the dead are dead, as in, know nothing, and do nothing, and feel nothing and remember nothing, you get my point. We have hope in the resurrection.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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#44
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


Take note of "Raised from the dead", Not raised from the living or changed from a living state but life from the dead.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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#45
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.


"them that slept" above is in reference to the body, not the spirit. If you have scripture that refers to the dead sleeping and you have scripture that demonstrates that the spirit/soul is conscious and aware, you don't adopt one side and discredit the other. You have to cross-reference all related scriptures in order to come to a proper conclusioin.

When the Lord descends to gather the church, He will bring with him the spirits/souls of those who have died in him, where at which time they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. The word "anastasis" translated "Resurrection" properly means "to physically stand up again." As for those who are still alive at the time of the resurrection, they are transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies and caught up with those who will have just previously resurrected.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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#46


Hello TMS,

Scripture is clear that when believers in Christ die, their spirit departs from the body and goes immediately to be in the presence of Christ - Phil.1:23, 2 Cor.5:6-8, Rev.6:9-11

According to Luke 16:19-31, when the unrighteous die, the spirit departs and ends up in Hades where they begin their punishment.
Your free to believe that, but i hate the god that you are presenting and would not be a follower of Christ if i believed in eternal punishment. The lies of the devil are thousands of years old and very refined, he has become very cunning and it is in his best interest to confuse us about the dead and spirits of the dead.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. .

Nothing there to say Paul will go straight to heaven. But if death is a sleep than 1000 years or 1 minute will be the same to Paul. The next thing he will know is the resurrection.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul is clear in that these corrupt bodies and the earthly flesh will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
These bodies are not able to be with the Lord, they are corrupt.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Is this literal or symbolic of the judgement? So many things point to symbolic and i don't like to think that millions of souls of the saints are stuck under the alter crying out how long, how long? symbolic of justice being served.

I think of God as being just. And i don't think it would be fair if He set people to hell for ever for crimes they did in one life time. i think God will give everyone a fair trial and it isn't fair for some to be suffering for 6000 years more than others.

If the dead are sleeping or waiting for the judgement and Resurrection, than it makes God fair and ordered and takes away the possibility for Satan to speak to me through the dead or deceive me with spirit of the dead.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

David was died for a long time?



.
 
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Dagallen

Guest
#47
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than a two edged sword, piercing ( diving ) even to dividing asunder of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the ( spiritual ) heart. Note: I believe this passage shows that soul and spirit will be separated, separating the mortal from the immortal, as the soul dies, as the spirits rises, clearly the spirit is immortal, so when the soul dies, where does the spirits go ? Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust ( soul ) return to the earth where it was and the spirit shall return to God who gave it. Note: The above two passages are very clear on soul and spirit, soul dies, spirit rises, spirit goes back to God who gave it and anyone who says otherwise, is denying what these two scriptures clearly state.
 
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newlightseven

Guest
#48
Ecclesiastes describes what life is like under the sun without God. It's not a reference point for those who believe in God. We know because it is all through scriptures that the righteous shall live, and the unrighteous shall come to ruins. We are made righteous through our belief in Christ.

Yes, the body shall go back to the earth.
 
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Dagallen

Guest
#49
Ecclesiastes describes what life is like under the sun without God. It's not a reference point for those who believe in God. We know because it is all through scriptures that the righteous shall live, and the unrighteous shall come to ruins. We are made righteous through our belief in Christ.

Yes, the body shall go back to the earth.
The words of God reveals everything has an opposite, a righteous spirit or an unrighteous spirit, all spirits will rise and face spiritual judgment, the only way all spirits can rise and be judged, all spirits are still living spirits, therefore spirits don't die, for it is the soul that dies, it's not really difficult to understand but for some, it is difficult to except what they don't believe, soul dies, the spirit rises unto spiritual judgment, as the soul has already been judged, it dies but the spiritual judgment is not yet for the spirits that have not risen yet.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
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#50


"them that slept" above is in reference to the body, not the spirit. If you have scripture that refers to the dead sleeping and you have scripture that demonstrates that the spirit/soul is conscious and aware, you don't adopt one side and discredit the other. You have to cross-reference all related scriptures in order to come to a proper conclusioin.

[/B][/I]When the Lord descends to gather the church, He will bring with him the spirits/souls of those who have died in him, where at which time they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. The word "anastasis" translated "Resurrection" properly means "to physically stand up again." As for those who are still alive at the time of the resurrection, they are transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies and caught up with those who will have just previously resurrected.
Just out of curiosity, how do you reconcile these scriptures to your thinking that the spirit is still conscious after death and before the resurrection?

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psa 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?

Psa 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
Psa 49:13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah.
Psa 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the
Psa 49:20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Compare to...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Why not? They cannot, they are dead and unconscious.

Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

The spirit of man returns to God but is it conscious?

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The word for spirit here is the same word for spirit used in Eccl 3:19 and 21...

רוּחַ
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

the breath of life.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The dead are sleeping in the dust of the earth. Some awake to eternal life at the resurrection, some awake to be put to death.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Mat 9:23 And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,

the custom at funerals at this time...

Mat 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
Mat 9:25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.

Luk 8:51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.
Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
Luk 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
Luk 8:55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

breath.

So, were Lazarus, the maid and others mention in the scripture that were physically resurrected, jerked out of fellowship with God in heaven and put back in the diseased body that had just died? That makes no sense at all and is unscriptural.

Jesus says that death is death and that we are made alive again at the resurrection...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

At the last (seventh) trump.

What was the first recorded lie?

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

What had God told them?

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

We are not an immortal soul, we are dust with the breath of life and we can and do die. Without a resurrection to eternal life through Christ, we die for all eternity.

The real question is who do you believe? The serpent who says...

"Ye shall not surely die"

or God Who says...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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#51
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TMS again.
 
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newlightseven

Guest
#52
John I am not sure what verison you are reading from but Ecclesiastes 12:7 says this

New International Version
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

New Living Translation
For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

English Standard Version
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

New American Standard Bible
then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

King James Bible
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
and the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

International Standard Version
then man's dust will go back to the earth, returning to what it was, and the spirit will return to the God who gave it.

NET Bible
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the life's breath returns to God who gave it.

New Heart English Bible
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Then the dust [of mortals] goes back to the ground as it was before, and the breath of life goes back to God who gave it.

JPS Tanakh 1917
And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.

New American Standard 1977
then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Jubilee Bible 2000
and the dust returns to the earth as it was before and the spirit returns unto God who gave it.

King James 2000 Bible
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

American King James Version
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

American Standard Version
and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the dust return into its earth, from whence it was, and the spirit return to God, who gave it.

Darby Bible Translation
and the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit return unto God who gave it.

English Revised Version
and the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit return unto God who gave it.

Webster's Bible Translation
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

World English Bible
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Young's Literal Translation
And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.

and Ecclesiastes 12:7 is about life without God. That soul shall die. Not so with the righteous. We can go to Ezekiel 18:20-21 to explain what happens to the soul who turns from his sins.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

The soul is not the body nor the dust. We are made up of body, soul, and spirit. the body is not the same thing as the soul.
 
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john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
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#53
John I am not sure what verison you are reading from
KJV and Eccl 12:7 says...

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Nothing in this verse says the spirit (we'll examine that word in a minute) is conscious. Put this together with the plethora of scriptures I posted and it is obvious the spirit without the body is unconscious.

The soul is not the body nor the dust. We are made up of body, soul, and spirit. the body is not the same thing as the soul.
Got some scripture for this? In the mean time, while you look, let's see...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man was made of the dust of the ground. God breathed in his nostrils the breath of life and he became a living something. What did he become? The word for soul here is...

H5315

נֶפֶשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Man became a breathing creature. A living creature. The word translated as "soul" in this verse is used for...

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

life in this verse comes from h5315 and refers to creatures living in the waters.

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

The word here for creature is the same one translated as soul in Gen 2:7 and refers to skunks, skinks and moles among other creatures on the earth.

Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

The word for life here is the same word translated soul in Gen 2:7 and refers to everything that creeps on the earth.

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

The word for creature here is the same word translated soul in Gen 2:7. So Adam named all these "souls". The word for soul, nephesh, means a creature that breathes for a living and refers to animals, birds and fish as well as man. There is nothing that indicates an immortal a soul in the Bible. That is the lie that Satan told...

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Man is not a three part being.

Now back to Eccl 12:7. What is the word for spirit here?

H7307

רוּחַ
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

The breath of life, not an immortal soul.
 
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Dagallen

Guest
#54
What is the breath of life ? As the key word is not breath but key word is life, so what is the life of mankind ?
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
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#55
What is the breath of life ? As the key word is not breath but key word is life, so what is the life of mankind ?
I actually do not completely understand this. I do know that the life we receive is not eternal and we can die. It has to do with the fact that the body and the breath, we can call it the spirit in man...

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Whatever it is, it imparts the ability to think and reason. It also imparts physical life to the body...

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The best analogy I have ever seen is that of a computer and operating system. If you take your laptop, tablet or even smart phone and turn it on without an operating system installed, it can do nothing.

The operating system is a series of instructions and data that must have hardware to run on. Without hardware, the operating system can do nothing. When we unite them, we have a device capable of some amazing things.

A man (or woman) is the same. Without the spirit (the operating system) the body (the hardware) does not function. Without a body (the hardware), the spirit (the operating system) does not function. Put them together and you have a being capable of amazing things.

Add to this the Holy Spirit and you have a son of God.
 
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Dagallen

Guest
#56
Where did the spirit of mankind come from ? Answer! The spirit of mankind goes back to God who gave it, so clearly the spirit of mankind came from God Himself, therefore, the spirit of mankind is not of this world but was sent into this world and given an earthly body to dwell in, when that body dies, the spirit of mankind goes back to God who gave, that spirit was given is a part of you, as a part you goes back to God.
 
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newlightseven

Guest
#57
I know it can be confusing but here is an example where it is clear the soul and the body are different

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Yes, your soul is within your body. But it is like your personality what makes you, you.
 
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Dagallen

Guest
#58
I already know that the soul and spirit are not the same thing. As the soul knows the things of man, as the things of God is foolishness unto the soul, as the spirit knows the things of God when the spirit is regenerated, reknewed, enlightened or reborn, if the spirit does not experience regeneration, then the spirit is dead or spiritually sleeping.as the spirit of man is the sphere of God, the inner man. As the spirit of man, is where the laws of God dwells, as we have two component, soul and spirit, that dwellls in one body, as the body is a temporary home for the soul and spirit, as the soul that sins, shall die, as all souls have sinned at some point, so body and soul shall die as one and at the same time, the sphere of God, which is the spirit of man, when it is called up, the soul and body dies as one and in the same moment, as the spirit has risen from the grave, that once was a living grave but became a dead grave.
 
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#59
Your soul is who you are, man became a living soul. We have a spirit and we live in a body. Both Jesus and Paul seem to teach that the person(soul and spirit) is conscious and goes to a destination at death and also that soul and spirit sleep and must be resurrected. Jesus spoke of those who are in the graves hearing His voice and coming forth. He also spoke of two men who died and went to clear destinations, one good and the other bad. So which is it, are the dead sleeping in their graves or are the dead either in Heaven or Hell? Paul wrote about the dead in Christ coming with Jesus at His return, this would imply that the dead in Christ are alive in Heaven with Christ. Then Paul wrote of the dead being raised first(resurrection?). Personally, I believe that those who have died in the Lord are with the Lord. I also believe that they will be called forth from their place in Heaven to go with Christ when He returns to earth to gather the church.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#60
Your soul is who you are, man became a living soul. We have a spirit and we live in a body. Both Jesus and Paul seem to teach that the person(soul and spirit) is conscious and goes to a destination at death and also that soul and spirit sleep and must be resurrected. Jesus spoke of those who are in the graves hearing His voice and coming forth. He also spoke of two men who died and went to clear destinations, one good and the other bad. So which is it, are the dead sleeping in their graves or are the dead either in Heaven or Hell? Paul wrote about the dead in Christ coming with Jesus at His return, this would imply that the dead in Christ are alive in Heaven with Christ. Then Paul wrote of the dead being raised first(resurrection?). Personally, I believe that those who have died in the Lord are with the Lord. I also believe that they will be called forth from their place in Heaven to go with Christ when He returns to earth to gather the church.
The PARABLE of Lazarus and the Rich Man is just that, a parable. Why did Christ speak in parables...

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
...
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

See? It works, the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is proof absolute of this principle.