Adam's fall and its consequences

[SovereignGrace]

This makes me rethink the "L" in TULIP. (Which to me and many others is no doubt the biggest stumbling stone)

Because if there is no "L" in TULIP the only logical conclusion is universalism, which goes against many Scriptures.

The atonement is limited, because if its not, then its universal in its application.

 

[Bogadile]

The atonement is limited, because if its not, then its universal in its application.

That is what I came to realize as well. I think I owe you and others an apology. Sorry! I genuinely believed I was right.

 

[trofimus]

The atonement is limited, because if its not, then its universal in its application.

Would it not be better to say that the reception of atonement is limited?

Because the sacrifice of God is, of course, more than is needed for the atonement of all creation, of all multiverses or whatever exists.

So it is not limited in its possibility, its limited in its effective action.

I think that many people reject the "L", because they think it says the death of Christ cannot save more people than the believing ones, technically. Like to say there is not enough of water for all thirsty people.

 

[John146]

"Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?"

Deuteronomy 1
34 And the Lord heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers.
36 Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh; he shall see it, and to him will I give the land that he hath trodden upon, and to his children, because he hath wholly followed the Lord.
37 Also the Lord was angry with me for your sakes, saying, Thou also shalt not go in thither.
38 But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it.
39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

The little ones were allowed to enter the promise land because they had not known good and evil. Taking this as a premise, we might be able to conclude that babies and little ones who do not know good and evil are spared by God and given eternal life.

 

[trofimus]

"Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?"

Deuteronomy 1
34 And the Lord heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers.
36 Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh; he shall see it, and to him will I give the land that he hath trodden upon, and to his children, because he hath wholly followed the Lord.
37 Also the Lord was angry with me for your sakes, saying, Thou also shalt not go in thither.
38 But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it.
39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

The little ones were allowed to enter the promise land because they had not known good and evil. Taking this as a premise, we might be able to conclude that babies and little ones who do not know good and evil are spared by God and given eternal life.

Interesting application.

On the other hand, is this "knowing good and evil" the same thing as "being good or evil"?

Also, should this verse be used as a premise for entering the eternal land?

 

[Issachar92]

"Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?"

Deuteronomy 1
34 And the Lord heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers.
36 Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh; he shall see it, and to him will I give the land that he hath trodden upon, and to his children, because he hath wholly followed the Lord.
37 Also the Lord was angry with me for your sakes, saying, Thou also shalt not go in thither.
38 But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it.
39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

The little ones were allowed to enter the promise land because they had not known good and evil. Taking this as a premise, we might be able to conclude that babies and little ones who do not know good and evil are spared by God and given eternal life.

And here we was thinking everyone is born a wicked devil? Dont make no sense based on this.

 

[notuptome]

The atonement is limited, because if its not, then its universal in its application.

This line of flawed reasoning forces a context onto Gods word and purpose that is not there. The blood of Christ is completely sufficient to forgive the sins of the entire world. Gods grace and mercy are available to all. Men refuse to accept Gods terms for salvation and this is the reason many remain lost in their sins.

Men choose to remain under the condemnation of sin. God is merciful and willing that all should be saved but men turn back and refuse to be saved. Mans self righteousness turns the grace of God to an ineffectual self serving religion.

Lucifer said I will be like the Most High God. Man joined Lucifer in the garden so now man must decide if he will stand in opposition to God or if he will submit to God in the matter of salvation by grace through faith.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[NayborBear]

Are you saying babies are not born tabula rasa? I do not believe they are.


Well, the bible does say to know to do good and not do it, to them it is sin.



David wrote "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."[Psalm 51:5] Then he wrote "Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.Their venom is like the venom of a snake, like that of a cobra that has stopped its ears,that will not heed the tune of the charmer, however skillful the enchanter may be."[Psalm 58:3-5] So, we are born sinners and when we grew enough to put it into action, we sinned. An infant will take things they know are not theirs, and that is stealing. They will tell you a big honking falsity to keep from getting their 'bum bum' heated, and that is lying. When they get mad, they will slap, scratch, scream, bite, because they did not get their way. Babies are not the 'sweet little angels' ppl make them out to be. My wife and I do not have kids, but I've been around enough nieces and nephews to know, see and feel their hatred when things do not go their way.




Well, they do know from their parents what is right and what is wrong. They know that if they get caught, to try to lie or deflect the blame to someone else to keep from getting into trouble.

King David is correct! When reading the "Garden of Eden Incident", although the account has been "radically" redacted, watered down, euphemized, (to make it less conspicuous, for "children") concerning the "eating" of the tree of knowledge, and good and evil", what happened immediately afterwards? One has to take into account, that the "situation", or relationship between Elohim, and His creation, was mucho different, then it IS, these days!

Anyway, Eve? Had a kid! 2 of them, in fact! Some say they were "twins". And, from what there is left to read concerning this, they very well could have been! Irregardless, I'll even go so far to say, they were 2 boys sired by 2 different parents! Even, the term "tree", has been "watered down!" So, let's call the "serpent", satan, who did the "beguiling". And let's call the "tree" beezelbub! Gotta take into account (methinks) where it is written that the "dragon" "swept", a third of the "stars of heaven", over to its side!

All Adam n Eve had to do was listen to God, and "not EAT", or "partake" of that "tree's" fruit!

And, it wasn't like Adam n Eve didn't have the necessary "tools of procreation". Yet? The "serpent's" partial TRUTH, was (and, still is), that "they" (Adam n Eve), could become AS God! And? They did! They "created" children! Of course, in Eve's defense, she innocently aided in this "cover up" of massive puportions, by having Adam partake/eat of "her" fruit!

 

[Issachar92]

The same falsehoods said again and again.

JUST BECAUSE ATONEMENT IS MADE DOES NOT MEAN ONE IS AUTOMATICALLY SAVED. HAS ANYONE HERE EVER READ THE TORAH?

I could just copy-paste the same messages as others do: here we go:

So what happened on the day of Atonement? A sacrifice (ATONEMENT) was made once a year for ALL OF ISRAEL (their sins) (Leviticus 16:34)

Did that mean that all of Israel's sins were atoned for/covered/whatever you wanna say and its a done deal, license to sin? NO! Why? Well lookie here:

Leviticus 23:27-29
Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.


And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the Lord your God.


For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.

Its about time to throw the writings of that anti-semite, heavy drinking (encouraged others to get drunk too, and if ya read his writings, he was probably wasted when writing em) monk Luther to the trash bin of history where they belong. All we can do is hope he repented during his later years, but judging by his writings against the jews, probably not. This guy is the chief heretic, we switched from garbage (catholics with their indulgences) to trash. Not much difference.

This is why some of the bible pundits cant make Hebrews 10:26 make sense and they make nonsensical interpretations (of the private kind) to get around their false doctrines, they dont know the Torah, and because of that they got no clue on how the atonement works. Thats the big problem.

 

[OneFaith]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]We know, especially in our day and time, the effects food has on our bodies. Too much salt causes high blood pressure, vitamin C helps our immune system, calcium makes our bones strong, caffeine makes us hyper, etc. Food causes physical changes in our bodies. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Well Adam’s and Eve’s minds were blocked from knowing good and evil, until they were unblocked by eating the forbidden fruit. Now we are born with an unblocked mind. I think something physical blocked their minds before the fruit, and that we are now born not having that thing. So it’s not like we inherit Adam’s personal sin, but the ability to sin. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Babies obviously do not know specifics like what a stop sign means, what the Ten Commandments say, what mom and dad’s rules are, etc. But I’ve been around enough newborns to recognize some are more patient than others. All babies cry to be fed or changed, but I recognized the good and bad in my children that is the same at age 14 and 27 that it was before they were even born. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]My son would not let me sleep on my side, he would kick the bed and hurt my stomach. As long as I didn’t disturb him, he was laid back- that is true today. He’s very laid back unless you cross his line, then he is very bold until you get back over the line. The problem is it’s his line, not God’s line. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]My daughter would let me sleep on my side, and interacted much with me. She knew the difference between the bed I was laying on, or if my hand was on my stomach. She would react to my hand wherever I put it on my stomach. She is more playful, and likes to talk to me a lot. We often get into really deep-thinking conversations, not just about the Bible, but like “Is a brain transplant possible, and if so, whose soul will be in that body?” [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]My granddaughter is still in the newborn stage. She is thee most patient newborn I’ve ever seen. She gives a little sound when she wants to be fed or changed, and if you pick her up she stops while you make her bottle. Her dad would scream until the moment you placed the bottle in his mouth. I’ll have to let you know how she turns out, but I can already tell her personality. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]We are born with good qualities and bad qualities. Do they determine our fate? No, because we can conform to be like Christ, if we so choose. But we are born with a sense of right and wrong. And although babies can’t practice rules, and in that way are innocent, they can practice spiritual things like love and patience, or the opposite of those things- and in that way, they can have a guilty conscience. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“Even a child makes himself known by his actions, whether his conduct is pure and right.” Proverbs 20:11[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Magenta]

I just got a spiritual smackdown from reading Romans 5:18 "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."

That sounds like universalism, which would contradict other Scriptures. But if it is not universalism, then wouldn't that mean that the trespass did not lead to condemnation for all men? It cannot be that all is condemned but the all in the second part of the sentence does not really mean all men anymore?

This is interesting. Anyone got a good way to harmonize this with rest of the Scriptures in a way that does not just claim the second all is not really all but first is?

Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. The flesh counts for nothing; one must be born again of the Spirit.

 

[phil36]

The same falsehoods said again and again.

JUST BECAUSE ATONEMENT IS MADE DOES NOT MEAN ONE IS AUTOMATICALLY SAVED. HAS ANYONE HERE EVER READ

I would agree with the above part of your statement, then you go off on some tangent about works? But I have to agree with scripture - those who are saved, are effectually saved


Jesus Died once for all.. No need for continuing to slaughter animals daily, no more need for the Day of atonement yearly. Just like the Isrealite's, are all those who go to church christians? Of course not. But they partake weekly in the blessings of God's people gathering ...MMmmm maybe there's a connection to Hebrews 10:28???

You need to take yourself out of the Mosaic covenant thinking and Bring your mind into the New Covenant....

Christ's Sacrifice Once for All

10 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshippers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins......

....He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.........


............14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds”,

17 then he adds,
“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.


Romans 6:10English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)

10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.

 

[John146]

Interesting application.

On the other hand, is this "knowing good and evil" the same thing as "being good or evil"?

Also, should this verse be used as a premise for entering the eternal land?

I'm not sure brother, but it gives us a look into God's heart for the little ones.

 

[NayborBear]

The same falsehoods said again and again.

JUST BECAUSE ATONEMENT IS MADE DOES NOT MEAN ONE IS AUTOMATICALLY SAVED. HAS ANYONE HERE EVER READ THE TORAH?

I could just copy-paste the same messages as others do: here we go:

So what happened on the day of Atonement? A sacrifice (ATONEMENT) was made once a year for ALL OF ISRAEL (their sins) (Leviticus 16:34)

Did that mean that all of Israel's sins were atoned for/covered/whatever you wanna say and its a done deal, license to sin? NO! Why? Well lookie here:

Leviticus 23:27-29
Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.


And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the Lord your God.


For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.

Its about time to throw the writings of that anti-semite, heavy drinking (encouraged others to get drunk too, and if ya read his writings, he was probably wasted when writing em) monk Luther to the trash bin of history where they belong. All we can do is hope he repented during his later years, but judging by his writings against the jews, probably not. This guy is the chief heretic, we switched from garbage (catholics with their indulgences) to trash. Not much difference.

This is why some of the bible pundits cant make Hebrews 10:26 make sense and they make nonsensical interpretations (of the private kind) to get around their false doctrines, they dont know the Torah, and because of that they got no clue on how the atonement works. Thats the big problem.

There are 2 "items", if you will:
1, is Salvation of, and for one's soul! Only "works, or effort/s" required, is for one to believe in God's sending of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and accept!

2, is for "works/efforts" towards (a form of) "Spiritual Completeness", NECESSARY, for being "born from above!"

If this were not so? Why did Jesus speak in parables?

 

[Issachar92]

Proof that Adam's guilt aint transferred to us:

Ezekiel 18:20-21

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Go read Genesis to figure out the real consequences for Adam's sin, here it is:

Genesis 3:16-19

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


Nothing about sin nature or guilt being inherited on there, aint that strange? Maybe Peter was right when he said folks are twisting Paul's letters? Most of the reformation heretics like Luther twisted Paul's letters to no end and made Paul contradict all of the bible. Typical lawyers. Or maybe he was just drunk when writing? By his own admission he liked to drink quite a bit? Go figure.

 

[trofimus]

Most of the reformation heretics like Luther twisted Paul's letters to no end and made Paul contradict all of the bible. Typical lawyers. Or maybe he was just drunk when writing? By his own admission he liked to drink quite a bit? Go figure.[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

You do not have to use Ad Hominem argument. Everyone of us has some ugly sins in our life, including you and me. It is not an argument against what we say.

And even if the guilt of Adam is not transformed to us, our evil inclination is in us from the first days of our life, from the womb, as Bible says.

Its quite obvious that the fall of Adam strenghtened this inclination very much. So it is not so far away to say we are so sinful because of Adam's fall.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Proof that Adam's guilt aint transferred to us:

Ezekiel 18:20-21

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Go read Genesis to figure out the real consequences for Adam's sin, here it is:

Genesis 3:16-19

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


Nothing about sin nature or guilt being inherited on there, aint that strange? Maybe Peter was right when he said folks are twisting Paul's letters? Most of the reformation heretics like Luther twisted Paul's letters to no end and made Paul contradict all of the bible. Typical lawyers. Or maybe he was just drunk when writing? By his own admission he liked to drink quite a bit? Go figure.

Two totally entire different contexts that you are trying to meld here.

Adam acted as our representative and when he sinned, that guilt was passed onto us.

The fathers' in Ezekiel 18 were not acting as their children's representative, and that is why the children would not bear their fathers' guilt.

Its like the parents of an underage son that steals. They don't go to jail for the son stealing. The son stole something, and he pays the penalty.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Psalm does not differ with what I wrote,

Absolutely it is. Those two passages in Psalms speak to how a man is born in sinner, born a sinner.

nobody is forced to lie and steel and do evil,

I never said anyone is forced to sin. That's a straw man you erected to tear down. Ppl sin because they are sinners. No one is forced to sin.

they choose to do so,

BINGO!!!

some at a early age, Adam may have stumbled but he did not fall, we have the choice to obey God or satan, Deut.30:19 its our choice. God bless

But we do not have a choice when we were born sinners. We had no choice who are parents were, where we were born at, when we were born, &c. Plus, Deut. 30:19 was addressed to God's covenant ppl, not the whole world indiscriminately. The Jebusites, Hitites, Hivvites, Egyptians, Philistines, Assyrians, &c were not given this choice.

 

[SovereignGrace]

JUST BECAUSE ATONEMENT IS MADE DOES NOT MEAN ONE IS AUTOMATICALLY SAVED.

So, the atonement of the Christ for sins is not enough to save sinners? Wowzers!!

 

[Issachar92]

So, the atonement of the Christ for sins is not enough to save sinners? Wowzers!!

Just like i quoted from the torah, day of atonement, the atonement was made for all of israel, YET still it was to no avail if:

For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.

But what can ya do when a mind is reading everything with reformed lenses and ignores everything that directly contradicts it.
Time to throw in the towel. (Ahem... "mixed with faith")

There is nothing about nobody acting as anyone's "Representative" in Ezekiel 18.
Romans 5:12 says sin came and through sin death came into the world, go read Genesis 3 (I quoted it earlier), see exactly what happened, no mention of sin nature or impaired ability to obey. Nothing.

The bottom line is this: If man is not free to obey, if man does not have unhindered will, then all judgments or rewards are meaningless. Nobody has really done anything good or evil, they were just doing what they were programmed to do. As your buddy Calvin says:
“God preordained, for his own glory and the display of His attributes of mercy and justice, a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation.”

So as I always call it, still holds true: ITS GRACE LOTTERY; you are born either preordained one way or another, unless you agree with ya boi Calvin. This is in direct contrast to what the earlier church fathers before nicene said:

"We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for." (Justin First Apology chap. 43)

As for Psalm 51:5: If Luther wouldnt of been so anti-semitic he woulda known that Psalm is a book of..... psalms. Poets and songs. Its not a systematic theology book where you pick out a verse and build an entire doctrine on it when ya got clear verses saying that the contrary is true (deuteronomy 1:39 as quoted by John before). So what is psalm 51:5 about? Exactly what it says, its talking about KING DAVID, it aint talking about every human being ever born. Psalm 51 is about David in the state of repentance after the Bathsheba incident. Good grief, ya guys are using the fancy words if anything this is what you call "eisegesis". In some translations like the NIV they even add the word sinful nature where it aint even in the text, to push their church dogmas on people.
And psalms is where yall reformed folks are in biig trouble, its filled with people being called righteous, doing the right thing, its definately a nightmare to yall.
The other "proof text" you used is again in Psalm 58, and again: its a prayer for the punishment of the wicked, its describing the wicked, not the righteous.

Of course, the answer to someone being righteous is always "well God enabled them" but this theory hits a roadblock the second you read Acts 10. Even John Piper couldn't figure that out! How is it possible that Cornelius was considered a just man, God-fearer and his prayer was heard and he got a personal visitation from an angel who told him God has seen his alms and prayers as memorials before Him... ALL THIS BEFORE HE WAS SAVED OR HAD THE HOLY GHOST!
Then Peter gets sent out to the guy and turns out the man didnt even get saved until verse 44 when the HOLY GHOST fell on em!

Here is my take on it: Cornelius was one of them guys described in Romans who didnt violate their conscience, and God saw this and thats why his prayers was accepted. But I thought God dont hear sinners?]