Adam's fall and its consequences

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Jan 21, 2017
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#61
God allowed it yes, but Did God ever intend for man to end up in hell? Only after Satan and his angels rebelled did God create such a place as hell. It seems to me that God never intended for Lucifer, any of the angels, or man to be cursed but gave all a choice to follow Him at His word. Obedience or rebellion is a choice.
Turns out even lucifer had free will, and all them other angels too!
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#62
Turns out even lucifer had free will, and all them other angels too!
But this "free will" does not cancel God's eternal decrees and His total control over His creation.

So "free" does mean neither "unlimited" nor "random".
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#63
But this "free will" does not cancel God's eternal decrees and His total control over His creation.

So "free" does mean neither "unlimited" nor "random".
It means that God has a plan if we obey, and God has a plan if we rebel. So choose.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#65
It means that God has a plan if we obey, and God has a plan if we rebel. So choose.
If God knew before the creation what will happen, He had/has only one plan. Why to have two plans when you know what will happen from the beginning?

In your view, you must make God not knowing everything.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#66
If God knew before the creation what will happen, He had/has only one plan. Why to have two plans when you know what will happen from the beginning?
That brings in the question: Has God chosen to limit His knowledge in man's choices? Knowing that nothing would "catch Him by surprise", but He would have the correct response to our choices. If you choose to do this, then I will choose to do this. In the end, He reigns supreme over all.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#68
That brings in the question: Has God chosen to limit His knowledge in man's choices? Knowing that nothing would "catch Him by surprise", but He would have the correct response to our choices. If you choose to do this, then I will choose to do this. In the end, He reigns supreme over all.
I have no idea why would God choose to limit His knowledge in this? For what purpose?

Bible says that our names are written in the book of life from the beginning of the world, so He obviously did not choose to limit His knowledge of future.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#70
I have no idea why would God choose to limit His knowledge in this? For what purpose?

Bible says that our names are written in the book of life from the beginning of the world, so He obviously did not choose to limit His knowledge of future.
Whose names are written in the book of life? Have all people that have ever lived had their names in the book of life until their names were blotted out for rejecting the word of God?

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

"And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."
Has God not chosen to limit His knowledge?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#71
Whose names are written in the book of life? Have all people that have ever lived had their names in the book of life until their names were blotted out for rejecting the word of God?

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

"And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."
Has God not chosen to limit His knowledge?
Even if you believe that all people's names were initially written in the book of life (I do not and I do not think Rev 3:5 must imply that), it will not help you in this case much.

Because again, God had to know all people who will ever live, before the creation of the world. Did He know that but somehow did not know whether they will stay written there?

I do not think that theology that needs to say that God does not know something, is a good one. Its strange, brings in more problems and does not solve anything...

To the verse about forgetting... yeah, I think its similar to verse like "God regrets" etc. Its not to be taken technically.
 
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Jan 21, 2017
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#72
Whose names are written in the book of life? Have all people that have ever lived had their names in the book of life until their names were blotted out for rejecting the word of God?

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

"And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."
Has God not chosen to limit His knowledge?
I got a good interpretation right here:
What if revelation 3:5 means what it says? Its written to a church, so them folks are christians, and now God is telling them if you dont overcome im gonna wipe your names out of the book of life. The reason them names are in there is because its a church, so these are christians, and they must overcome. Perseverence of the saints or OSAS wont really cut it here. Because by their logic, them folks was never in the book of life to begin with!
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#73
Even if you believe that all people's names were initially written in the book of life (I do not and I do not think Rev 3:5 must imply that), it will not help you in this case much.

Because again, God had to know all people who will ever live, before the creation of the world. Did He know that but somehow did not know whether they will stay written there?

I do not think that theology that needs to say that God does not know something, is a good one. Its strange, brings in more problems and does not solve anything...

To the verse about forgetting... yeah, I think its similar to verse like "God regrets" etc. Its not to be taken technically.
Not to mention that "He remembers our sins no more" applies after the resurrection and judgment of all, when the corruptible puts on the incorruptible, and those in Christ put on immortality. Those who were not found in Christ at that time are destroyed in the lake of fire.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#74
Not to mention that "He remembers our sins no more" applies after the resurrection and judgment of all, when the corruptible puts on the incorruptible, and those in Christ put on immortality. Those who were not found in Christ at that time are destroyed in the lake of fire.
So God, in the future, will not remember our sins and iniquities in eternity future.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#75
I do not think that theology that needs to say that God does not know something, is a good one. Its strange, brings in more problems and does not solve anything...
You're using man's logic. "If God is God then He must know everything that has ever happened before the creation of the world, because if He did not, He would not be God."

Let's go with what the Bible has said. Let's allow the Bible to define God.
 
Jul 23, 2017
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#76
You're using man's logic. "If God is God then He must know everything that has ever happened before the creation of the world, because if He did not, He would not be God."

Let's go with what the Bible has said. Let's allow the Bible to define God.
are u an open theist?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#77
Its the old chestnut:

Free will = I Am. Man can't get his head around the fact that he is not 'I Am' and he does not control God's eternal decree's.

Simple really.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#78
You're using man's logic. "If God is God then He must know everything that has ever happened before the creation of the world, because if He did not, He would not be God."

Let's go with what the Bible has said. Let's allow the Bible to define God.
Well, we both are using man's logic, because we both are men. But I think that logic is given to us by God so if used properly, it will not lead us astray.

I have nothing against Bible verses. If you have some saying that God does not know the future, post them.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#79
So God, in the future, will not remember our sins and iniquities in eternity future.
I think that the verse is saying that our past sins will not have any consequences in our future, that God will not incline or act or base anything on them. I do not think it means that the information will somehow get out of His memory.
In the similar way the verse "He will wipe every tear from their eyes" does not technically mean that we will be crying and He will be wiping our tears, but means something more general.

---

BTW, in a quantum mechanics its proven that past can be changed. So, it is also possible that our past will simply change. I am sure we will be really perplexed by what we will understand and experience in the new, spiritual realm. So who knows.
 
Jan 21, 2017
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#80
Its the old chestnut:

Free will = I Am. Man can't get his head around the fact that he is not 'I Am' and he does not control God's eternal decree's.

Simple really.
No free will = No one is guilty, its all God's fault. Yall cant get your head around the fact that God is not at fault for our sins, and he does not cause us to sin.
He calls us to obey, and tells us His commandments are doable, and close to us.

Simple really.

Just another excuse for not obeying.