All Aboard! Present Your Post-Tribber Ticket to Hell on Earth!

[John146]

It means you're better off dead than to suffer through the greatest tribulation this world has ever seen.

Christians suffered tribulation in the Dark Ages. Most Christians in my lifetime have not [ to the same degree... ]; however, some have...

So...???

What does that have to do with anything?

There is no promise or guarantee that every Christian will suffer the same-exact-amount of persecution / tribulation.

This is not something anyone should base their eschatology on.

 

[GaryA]

Yes, but those post-tribbers believe only those alive at the time of the tribulation will suffer the tribulation.

"Quite frankly, I am thinking that everyone believes that only people who are alive ... will suffer ... tribulation."

JK

 

[GaryA]

It means you're better off dead than to suffer through the greatest tribulation this world has ever seen.

Those who "suffer through the greatest tribulation this world has ever seen" end up dead, don't they?

 

[GaryA]

Christians suffered tribulation in the Dark Ages. Most Christians in my lifetime have not [ to the same degree... ]; however, some have...

So...???

What does that have to do with anything?

There is no promise or guarantee that every Christian will suffer the same-exact-amount of persecution / tribulation.

This is not something anyone should base their eschatology on.

It means you're better off dead than to suffer through the greatest tribulation this world has ever seen.

Those who "suffer through the greatest tribulation this world has ever seen" end up dead, don't they?

I am trying to make a point here -- do you understand what I am attempting to get across?

It is very bad eschatology that bases itself on "political correctness" -- i.e. - everyone must "experience" the same -- that is not the nature of the true reality of the world we live in.

 

[GaryA]

With respect to the time of Jacob's trouble, the believer is told to pray to escape these things, to be worthy of escaping these things.

Luke 21:36 is not talking about Jacob's trouble.

Jacob's trouble is not the Great Tribulation -- it is Armageddon. It is focused on the Jews.

( That is why it is called Jacob's trouble... )

 

[John146]

Armaggeddon is the judgment coming to the nations on how they've dealt with the nation of Israel during the tribulation. See Matthew 25.

Luke 21:36 is not talking about Jacob's trouble.

Jacob's trouble is not the Great Tribulation -- it is Armageddon. It is focused on the Jews.

 

[GaryA]

What difference does it make if the Rapture is Pretrib, Posttrib, or midtrib?

"Well - you know what they say --- timing is everything..."

What we need to realize God is there for us. Look at the Prophets, the Apostles, the great men of God. They were killed because of what they taught and believed. To be absent from the body is to be with God!

And, many more will be killed because of what they teach and believe.

"Not sure why some people believe they are so special - so as to be any different..."

Many in the Bride have been beheaded, burned at the stake, etc. in the past as well as present times also.

"And, Satan is not done yet..."

So why are people so afraid of the Rapture occurring at the end instead of the beginning? Do you not know God is there for us?

Because they do not want to have to deal with having to experience any of it.

 

[GaryA]

Armaggeddon is the judgment coming to the nations on how they've dealt with the nation of Israel during the tribulation. See Matthew 25.

Matthew 25 is not about Armageddon. The sheep-and-goats 'judgment' ( in 'event' terms ) is after Armageddon.

This is Armageddon:


Revelation 19:

[SUP]19[/SUP] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


Revelation 16:

[SUP]13[/SUP] And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. [SUP]14[/SUP] For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

[SUP]16[/SUP] And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


Isaiah 13:

[SUP]15[/SUP] Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. [SUP]16[/SUP] Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

[SUP]18[/SUP] Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.


Zechariah 12:

[SUP]2[/SUP] Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

[SUP]9[/SUP] And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. [SUP]10[/SUP] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. [SUP]11[/SUP] In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.


Zechariah 14:

[SUP]1[/SUP] Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. [SUP]2[/SUP] For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


The Isaiah 13 and Zechariah 14 passages are talking about an attack on Judah / Jerusalem. This is Jacob's trouble. It is the initial 'stage' of the overall event known as 'Armageddon'.

 

[John146]

Yes, that it the 2nd advent of Christ, not the rapture, where afterwards, He will judge nations and declare if they are sheep or goats.

Matthew 25 is not about Armageddon. The sheep-and-goats 'judgment' ( in 'event' terms ) is after Armageddon.

This is Armageddon:


Revelation 19:

[SUP]19[/SUP] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


Revelation 16:

[SUP]13[/SUP] And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. [SUP]14[/SUP] For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

[SUP]16[/SUP] And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


Isaiah 13:

[SUP]15[/SUP] Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. [SUP]16[/SUP] Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

[SUP]18[/SUP] Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.


Zechariah 12:

[SUP]2[/SUP] Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

[SUP]9[/SUP] And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. [SUP]10[/SUP] And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. [SUP]11[/SUP] In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.


Zechariah 14:

[SUP]1[/SUP] Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. [SUP]2[/SUP] For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


The Isaiah 13 and Zechariah 14 passages are talking about an attack on Judah / Jerusalem. This is Jacob's trouble. It is the initial 'stage' of the overall event known as 'Armageddon'.

 

[PlainWord]

Luke 21:36 is not talking about Jacob's trouble.

Jacob's trouble is not the Great Tribulation -- it is Armageddon. It is focused on the Jews.

( That is why it is called Jacob's trouble... )

Gary,

I now believe that Jacob's Trouble and the Great Tribulation are one and the same event. It is a time of trouble for Israel, the likes we have never seen. However, it is also a period of great deception. It is not a deception of the Jews (for the ELECT cannot be deceived) but rather for the Muslims living in and around Israel.

The GT starts when the Abomination of Desolation stands where it shouldn't be (Mark 13:14). When this happens, those specifically in Judea are to flee (no one else is warned to flee). [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

If we cross reference Dan 11:31-35 we see that Israel is under attack from the King of the North. The King of the North will be Islamic (As all countries around Israel are Islamic and all those named in Eze 38 are Islamic). Those who "forsake the holy covenant" are Palestinians/Canaanites. The covenant of course being the one given to Abraham concerning ownership of the Promised Land. The Palestinians forsake Abraham's covenant claiming the Land belongs to them. Therefore, the King of the North is showing regard towards the Palestinians as one might expect an invading Islamic leader to do.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. The King of the North then corrupts (deceives) the Palestinians with flattery, but the Israelis/Jews know their God and they will not be fooled as Jesus confirms in the Olivet. Once Israel has been defeated, the King of the North will gain incredible credibility with the rest of the Muslim world for doing something they failed to do in '67, '73 and '81. It is at this point that the Man of Sin/King of the North claims to be above every God (Dan 11:36-39, Mat 24:23-26 and 2 Thes 2:4).

[SUP]9 [/SUP]The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, [SUP]12 [/SUP]that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The deceived in the above passage are the Muslims. They follow the Lawless One. They have the Strong Delusion and believed the lie. They will be the ones who are condemned and perish and John confirms this in Rev 14: “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, [SUP]10 [/SUP]he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

John goes on to tell us how "the Beast"/Daniel's "King of the North" deceives his followers in Rev 13: [SUP]13 [/SUP]He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast... He deceives by those great signs.

So, the Great Tribulation is full scale war against Israel (Jacob's Trouble) and its a time of great deception by the Lawless One, the Man of Sin, the Islamic King of the North. He gets all Muslims to follow him and those who won't are put to death.

 

[thepsalmist]

This thread isn't about rapture debates, not about repeating those same threads anybody can search out. It's not about soliciting your comments, post-tribbers, or any comments, rather a warning, take it or leave it.

A few days ago I saw where somebody had said it doesn't matter what you believe about the rapture, have heard this many times before. This could very well be true for some. On the other hand, when one has a stand that's not rooted in naive ignorance, that fails to acknowledge certain scripture truths, rejects and tries to teach against these truths to others, here is a real quandary for you post-tribbers:

Luke 21:34-36 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

With respect to the time of Jacob's trouble, the believer is told to pray to escape these things, to be worthy of escaping these things. If the believer in these things and that escape is to pray to be worthy to escape, what can be said of one who doesn't believe there is any escape? As a matter of fact, one who teaches people not to be ready to meet the Lord in the air, at any time, at all, but rather to look for the antichrist to appear, denies there's any escape to pray for? So, if commanded to pray to be worthy, where does one stand, who doesn't even believe in that escape? You certainly can't pray to escape, and unbelief seems a whole lot of rungs below any issue of worthiness.

You like the tribulation period? By all indications, you'll get your wish, may pay a very heavy price for your trifling with truth, denying the blessed hope of the coming of the Lord Jesus for His bride on message boards.

Just a thought, since you can't pray to be worthy to escape the tribulation, by all indications you are, therefore, fresh out of luck. And I don't believe in luck, any more than your post-tribulation false prophecy and exegetical incompetence.

Even Jesus prayed that "this cup" (of tribulation) be removed ... IF it was God's will.

He demonstrated that our AIM should not be martyrdom ... we should not be filled with masochistic or suicidal desires, but treasure God's blessings while praying that His will be done, nonetheless, Accepting martyrdom only if it is God's will for us.

 

[tanakh]

This thread isn't about rapture debates, not about repeating those same threads anybody can search out. It's not about soliciting your comments, post-tribbers, or any comments, rather a warning, take it or leave it.

A few days ago I saw where somebody had said it doesn't matter what you believe about the rapture, have heard this many times before. This could very well be true for some. On the other hand, when one has a stand that's not rooted in naive ignorance, that fails to acknowledge certain scripture truths, rejects and tries to teach against these truths to others, here is a real quandary for you post-tribbers:

Luke 21:34-36 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

With respect to the time of Jacob's trouble, the believer is told to pray to escape these things, to be worthy of escaping these things. If the believer in these things and that escape is to pray to be worthy to escape, what can be said of one who doesn't believe there is any escape? As a matter of fact, one who teaches people not to be ready to meet the Lord in the air, at any time, at all, but rather to look for the antichrist to appear, denies there's any escape to pray for? So, if commanded to pray to be worthy, where does one stand, who doesn't even believe in that escape? You certainly can't pray to escape, and unbelief seems a whole lot of rungs below any issue of worthiness.

You like the tribulation period? By all indications, you'll get your wish, may pay a very heavy price for your trifling with truth, denying the blessed hope of the coming of the Lord Jesus for His bride on message boards.

Just a thought, since you can't pray to be worthy to escape the tribulation, by all indications you are, therefore, fresh out of luck. And I don't believe in luck, any more than your post-tribulation false prophecy and exegetical incompetence.

How worthy do you have to be? How exactly do you know you have reached the right level of worthiness? Are you expecting an Angel to come with the good news that you have made the grade as a special holy Christian that will
dodge all the nasty stuff that the second class Christians will have to put up with?

Post Tribulation was the standard belief up until the 1830's and is still believed by the majority of Christians world wide today.

 

[MsSuzanna]

Had to blow this up to a larger size, to reveal his gospel in all its glory.

View attachment 144203​

Sign me up!!!! LOL


This is some real wolf stuff right here

 

[Ahwatukee]

I'm sorry, but this makes no sense to me. You want to warn about something but you want no reactions? Wouldn't blogging it somewhere and not allowing comments work better than posting on this board? Particularly, this board?

As trying to escape goes, it's talking about not lazying back. If it was a terrible thing to be caught up in it, (which in itself is an oxymoron since "rapture" means "caught up"), then this scripture means the ones stuck during the catching up aren't worthy to escape. Not a problem for me. None of us are worthy. Particularly something big to consider considering hundreds of thousands of the people who read that letter in the early days of the church found themselves in that very spot, and knew they would stand in front of Jesus right after death and be judged according to HIS worthiness.

Like I said, this post makes no sense. You honestly thought no one would respond just because you're warning some folks about something that you never explained what it was to warn about?

I spent a decade or so in churches that preached rapture. Then I went on to find churches that preached God. Even if rapture as described by 19th and 20th century creations was true, it still doesn't matter. We can't do anything about it. God, on the other hand, is well worth devoting our lives to.

"Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing."

Hello Depleted,

Our hoping and longing for the Lord's appearing to gather us is having faith in His promise, of which Paul said, "comfort one another with these words." For those who look for Him when he returns to the earth to end the age, they must look for the entire wrath of God first and there would be no comfort in that nor would it be a blessed hope.

Blessings!

 

[PlainWord]

"Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing."

Hello Depleted,

Our hoping and longing for the Lord's appearing to gather us is having faith in His promise, of which Paul said, "comfort one another with these words." For those who look for Him when he returns to the earth to end the age, they must look for the entire wrath of God first and there would be no comfort in that nor would it be a blessed hope.

Blessings!

Yet that is exactly the order that the Word gives us.

2 Thes 2: Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. [SUP]3[/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

If I shorten the above a little and just give you the highlighted portion, maybe it will be clearer for you?

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, let no one deceive you by any means, for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed...

The Pre-Trib Rapture theory is the "any means" by which pre-tribber has been deceived.

The reason why this verse is given is to specifically warn those who think Christ returns before the Man of Sin is revealed. This verse is given to warn you because Paul doesn't want you to think Jesus has returned when it isn't Jesus.

The Man of Sin is responsible for the Great Tribulation of Israel. God's Wrath comes in response but we aren't to worry, because we are not appointed to God's Wrath as it is aimed at Gog and those armies which come up against Israel.

 

[popeye]

How worthy do you have to be? How exactly do you know you have reached the right level of worthiness? Are you expecting an Angel to come with the good news that you have made the grade as a special holy Christian that will
dodge all the nasty stuff that the second class Christians will have to put up with?

Post Tribulation was the standard belief up until the 1830's and is still believed by the majority of Christians world wide today.

1 thes 4 has the dead in Christ preceding the living in the rapture.

Rev 14 shows a gathering if ripe fruit DURING THE GT.

That makes a post trib rapture impossible

The 1830 deal is a fluke.

Mans intellect is no match for the bible.