Any christian on here ever been actually attacked by a demon????

[Revelator7]

In my dreams I have seen demons. I have experienced the demonic in that realm.
But who's to say that my nightmares weren't actually God exposing the evil in my life and giving me discernmnet and awareness of what's going on in the spirit behind the scenes? I don't know if I'd call my dream experiences an attack, but I do know I have witnessed how demons behave and what they're capable of. In my dreams I usually see demons in the form of animals or critters. Other times they are invisble. The invisble ones like to "stand" in corners of the room I'm in in the dream. They growl, they speak in plain English. Sometime's I can feel a living presence besides acknowledging their presence in the room. When I've seen them in the form of a creature, they often move a lot. I was saw a huge snake confront me to my face. Through the years as a Christian I've been trained in my dreams to war against them in using my faith and the word of God. My faith in Jesus has protected me, and the word of God prevented them from continuing the attack. the Name of Jesus is often what I declare when I'm asleep but conciously awake in my dreams. Other times Scripture like Isaiah 54:17 has come out of my mouth. The trick is to not believing the demon, or the feelings that they try and control your mind and emotions with. Once I saw the color white in a warfare dream. God was telling me that in my daily life I needed to keep my robes of righteousness white, free from stain. To have my scarlet sin to be removed and to have my life be as white as snow regarding my life so that these attacks in real life (outside of the dreamworld) would cease. A lot of my dreams are trainning simulations.

 

[Allin]

Awesome. While I might quibble over a couple very minor points, I won't, because your examples show great understanding and discernment that many others should and need to know. Great job! Op - listen to this guy!

Yes, the local church needs to teach Christians these kinds of things that influence and impact their daily lives. I was on my way to bed and forgot to respond to a few things you posted:

1. First of all, your sheriff-deputy example was a good one. You wrote: "Excelent point, you can not cast a demon out of yourself. That does take the hands and ministry of Christians outside the afflicted. So many of God's gifts are just like that - thru you not to you." Yes, I found that the gifts are 'through you' not 'for you'. A person with say the gift of healing will rarely if ever be able to heal themselves; but they will easily be able to heal others. (For instance, sometimes I may have a question and don't know the answer; but as soon as I start sharing with someone (sometimes, I will even ask them the question), I will receive the answer.) God made it this way to cause the Church to be a Body of interdependent people.

2. You said, "Too often I see Christians who spend their time and energy praying God do this and God do that. And there are times when God does indeed do this and that. But there are times when we need to do this and that. And one of those times is when dealing with the demon afflicted." It's often a lack of confidence, etc. A national crisis in American churches is our tendency to start everything from the middle, rather than the beginning, as we are overly eager to get to the end (we employ our own confidence/ability rather than learning to walk in God's confidence/ability); we have to cut corners and have it now. The lack of 'inter-Christian ministry', where Christians minister to each other first rather than skipping to ministering to the world, is keeping overall ministry in infant stage. Few can confront demons who aren't first 'built up' (trained up) in that area. From the "take the world for Christ now" model, churches take people whom life, the world, the past, and who knows what else have torn down and tell them, "Now, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength! Get out there and do it!" It doesn't work; Christians need to be empowered first (baptized in the Spirit), then taught how to use tools and weapons rather than just being told to use them.

God can wait for ministry to all the needy and lost people outside the church walls: the ministry is first to Christians or the guy and girl sitting to either side of you: "He gave [several different types of ministry] for the equipping of the saints... for the edifying (building up) of the body of Christ... that we should no longer be children... but... may grow up (become knowledgeable) in all things" (Eph. 4). From ministry to 1.) Christians in your church, ministry moves on to 2.) your neighbors (people in your neighborhood, at work, at the grocery store, at the gas station, at the mall, everyday people); and from there, it moves on to 3.) everyone else: "You will receive power [for ministry] after the Holy Spirit has come on you; and you will be witnesses to Me in 1.] Jerusalem, and 2.] in all Judea and Samaria, and 3.] to the end of the earth" (Acts 1:8). So, the word is "Build up, build up My people" just like in the past it was "'Comfort, yes comfort My people,' says your God" (Isa. 40:1).

 

[Allin]

Thank you Know1 for your response. I will address the mentally ill. Mental illness can come about in various ways, car wreck, hit in the head, chemicals and so forth. A person that has brain damage from being hit in the head may not be able to defend his or herself from demonic attacks through prayer. In the very far past we did so really bizarre things to these people looking for a cure. Many rich people put their brain damaged relatives in care facilities. The poor could not afford this and had to take care of their own. The poor did a lot of praying and rebuking of demons trying to control the Behavior of the mentally ill. Today we have medication that more or less renders the mentally ill to exist in a zombie state. Technology has made great advances in the repair of a damaged brain and now we regress to controlling them through medication and a microchip. This is where we as Christians have too make a stand. a robot has no will of its own and neither does a medicated, micro chipped human. We need to pray that this type of voluntary or involuntary invasion of micro chip technology is ended in totality. Demons are not just Spirit, they can be devices made by man. You can't just cast out a micro chip. Research, Mark of the Beast 666 micro chip made by the company verichip. The game has changed. Demons are using devices placed inside of the bodies of people. I know there is hope because the Bible says:

KJV
Psalms 140:8
Grant not, O LORD, the desires of the wicked: further not his wicked device; lest they exalt themselves. Selah.
Isaiah 32:7 | The instruments also of the churl are evil: he deviseth wicked devices to destroy the poor with lying words, even when the needy speaketh right.


Psalms 33:10 | The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect.

DEVICES IN THE BIBLE

A few things:

1. The mentally ill: whether by a physical injury, family history, an unhealthy upbringing, or the demonic, there is a way to 'cure' all mental illnesses. The Bible tells us of some whose mental illnesses were cured when demons were cast out of them. For those whose mental illness is from a physical injury to their brain, however, we shouldn't forget Jesus' 'creative miracles': in the Bible, it shows that Jesus healed people physically on the inside (you have to look closely), but the creative miracles we see on the outside are sufficient to tell us this: if Jesus could cause withered arms to grow back to normal and bent backs to straighten to normal, then He can perform creative miracles on parts of the body that we rarely think of when we hear the word 'miracle, healing'-- parts of the body like the brain (physical injury) and the physical face (some whose faces may have been wounded, contorted, or 'broken' in some way).

2. Devices: while the Bible may not be specifically mentioning 'devices' as in implants in its use of the word ('device/s'), it's true that satan can use physical objects (like chips as well as other things that occultists can plant in or on people which are generally called 'cursed objects' or 'cursed gifts') to gain entrance into a person's body, soul or mind, home, family, or overall life.

 

[Allin]

The Pastor of the Church I use to attend spoke of a mission trip in So Africa. As he was leaving a witch doctors tent.
He felt a sharp pain in his back. Two weeks later, a spiritual friend of his came to his door. Immediately the pastors friend said
You have a spear in your back. That being a spiritual spear. He pulled it out. the pain was gone.
I shared his testimony with a female person that I met online. we only talked once over the phone. She was born and raised in So Africa. She said the Zulu tribes in So Africa have such a spiritual weapon. She called it another name, but said it was a spiritual spear.
She also went on to say. The witch doctors take in lots of money for healing. But they have never healed anybody. The Christians in So Africa do lots of miracle healing.

Two testimonies, complete strangers, living 100 miles from each other. One a victim of a spiritual spear. The other living around or with people that are able to use dark spiritual weapons/attacks. Validating the Pastors testimony.

The word of knowledge and word of wisdom (from 1Cor. 12:7-10) are two gifts that reveal (word of knowledge) and resolve (word of wisdom) basically any problem on planet earth. There was a guy in a church I used to attend who'd had a back ache for many years. During the worship, someone received a word of knowledge which told the guy that the ache did not have a natural origin, as he thought, but was demonic. When they prayed for him for other issues and he received deliverance from several evil spirits, his back ache had totally disappeared.

Your pastor's friend received a word of knowledge in identifying something invisible that was causing your pastor problems. In Africa, there tends to be a superstitious culture that keeps Africans from progress in the now, and in America there is usually an overly cerebral mindset that keeps Americans from being able to see, believe, or understand spiritual things. A church which keeps the good side of both and throws out the bad would be a spectacular church.

 

[RickyZ]

Yes, the local church needs to teach Christians these kinds of things that influence and impact their daily lives. I was on my way to bed and forgot to respond to a few things you posted:

1. First of all, your sheriff-deputy example was a good one. You wrote: "Excelent point, you can not cast a demon out of yourself. That does take the hands and ministry of Christians outside the afflicted. So many of God's gifts are just like that - thru you not to you." Yes, I found that the gifts are 'through you' not 'for you'. A person with say the gift of healing will rarely if ever be able to heal themselves; but they will easily be able to heal others. (For instance, sometimes I may have a question and don't know the answer; but as soon as I start sharing with someone (sometimes, I will even ask them the question), I will receive the answer.) God made it this way to cause the Church to be a Body of interdependent people.

2. You said, "Too often I see Christians who spend their time and energy praying God do this and God do that. And there are times when God does indeed do this and that. But there are times when we need to do this and that. And one of those times is when dealing with the demon afflicted." It's often a lack of confidence, etc. A national crisis in American churches is our tendency to start everything from the middle, rather than the beginning, as we are overly eager to get to the end (we employ our own confidence/ability rather than learning to walk in God's confidence/ability); we have to cut corners and have it now. The lack of 'inter-Christian ministry', where Christians minister to each other first rather than skipping to ministering to the world, is keeping overall ministry in infant stage. Few can confront demons who aren't first 'built up' (trained up) in that area. From the "take the world for Christ now" model, churches take people whom life, the world, the past, and who knows what else have torn down and tell them, "Now, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength! Get out there and do it!" It doesn't work; Christians need to be empowered first (baptized in the Spirit), then taught how to use tools and weapons rather than just being told to use them.

God can wait for ministry to all the needy and lost people outside the church walls: the ministry is first to Christians or the guy and girl sitting to either side of you: "He gave [several different types of ministry] for the equipping of the saints... for the edifying (building up) of the body of Christ... that we should no longer be children... but... may grow up (become knowledgeable) in all things" (Eph. 4). From ministry to 1.) Christians in your church, ministry moves on to 2.) your neighbors (people in your neighborhood, at work, at the grocery store, at the gas station, at the mall, everyday people); and from there, it moves on to 3.) everyone else: "You will receive power [for ministry] after the Holy Spirit has come on you; and you will be witnesses to Me in 1.] Jerusalem, and 2.] in all Judea and Samaria, and 3.] to the end of the earth" (Acts 1:8). So, the word is "Build up, build up My people" just like in the past it was "'Comfort, yes comfort My people,' says your God" (Isa. 40:1).

Lemme ask you this (hey it wouldn't be the Bible discussion forum without a little quibble )... where you say Christians need to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. My understanding is that we are actually baptized in the Spirit when we accept Christ. The subsequent event that most associate with being baptized, is actually a first experience of letting the already-inner Spirit flow outward. Sometimes they happen at the same time, sometimes the outflow gets corked up for a bit. I blame that on teachings that they're not for today, and the doubt instilled by satan and the world. Faith makes it flow, but these days it's hard to have faith, sometimes even among the faithful.

You said it's sometimes a lack of confidence. Exactly, that's exactly what faith is. When people talk about Paul's thorn, and how he healed others but not himself... I wonder if the reason he was never healed was because no one had the bal-- 'scuse me I mean faith/confidence to walk up and touch him and speak a word. Faith = confidence = faith! Those who sow doubt don't know the damage they do. We need to be united and confident in our faith, especially in the days we are entering.

 

[Allin]

Lemme ask you this (hey it wouldn't be the Bible discussion forum without a little quibble )... where you say Christians need to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. My understanding is that we are actually baptized in the Spirit when we accept Christ. The subsequent event that most associate with being baptized, is actually a first experience of letting the already-inner Spirit flow outward. Sometimes they happen at the same time, sometimes the outflow gets corked up for a bit. I blame that on teachings that they're not for today, and the doubt instilled by satan and the world. Faith makes it flow, but these days it's hard to have faith, sometimes even among the faithful.

You said it's sometimes a lack of confidence. Exactly, that's exactly what faith is. When people talk about Paul's thorn, and how he healed others but not himself... I wonder if the reason he was never healed was because no one had the bal-- 'scuse me I mean faith/confidence to walk up and touch him and speak a word. Faith = confidence = faith! Those who sow doubt don't know the damage they do. We need to be united and confident in our faith, especially in the days we are entering.

Yes, if the local church taught these things, there would not be so much confusion, uncertainty, and disunity among Christians. I'm still learning these things moment by moment, but I'll try to answer each point individually with you in blue:

1. "My understanding is that we are actually baptized in the Spirit when we accept Christ." No. There are different types of conversion experiences. The Holy Spirit 'moves into' anyone who 'receives Christ' (i.e. those who receive His testimony as truth (e.g. His testimony in Jn. 3:16) and therefore 'receive' Him). Yet, the Holy Spirit baptism is different as surely as the Holy Spirit is a distinct Person from the Lord. You can see from the distinct water baptism, which rarely occurs simultaneously with conversion, that the baptism of the Spirit is also separate. They are baptisms which 'cover' or 'come down from above'. The Spirit baptism also literally 'comes from above', because:

A.) "Every good and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of heavenly lights" (Jas. 1:17),

B.) "When [Jesus] had been baptized... He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove" (Matt. 3:16-17),

C.) When the Holy Spirit fell on Pentecost with the mighty wind, "there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and sat upon each of them. And they were filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:1-4),

D.) While Peter was preaching the gospel to Cornelius' household, "the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision were astonished... because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles" (Acts 10:44-46),

E.) "He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem but to wait for the Promise (the Holy Spirit) of the Father... 'For truly, John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now... You will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you'" (Acts 1:4, 5, 8).

2. "The subsequent event that most associate with being baptized, is actually a first experience of letting the already-inner Spirit flow outward." No. The initial salvation is when the Word and Spirit 'move in', making you clean (born again): "You are already clean, because of the Word I have spoken to you (because you 'received' the truth, the testimony of Jesus Christ: i.e. the Lord Himself)...' And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit'" (Jn. 15:3, 20:22). After they received the Spirit, they still had to be baptized in the Spirit which had not yet happened. It is possible to 'receive Christ' and not yet be baptized with the Spirit: Paul met Christians ("disciples") in Ephesus who had not even heard of the Holy Spirit nor been water baptized in Christ yet. Paul baptized them into Jesus properly, "and when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied" (Acts 19:1-7). A person can be a Christian but not Spirit-baptized; however, a Spirit-baptized person can have gifts, etc., which are locked up within and need to be called/prayed out (need to be loosed). At this loosing, they will usually speak in tongues if they never have and will begin to experience spiritual abilities they did not experience before. You're right about corked up gifts and the pervasive lack of faith that quenches the Holy Spirit. That will change. Unbelief is just not powerful enough to keep a supernatural God at bay forever.

Also recall that some people in the Bible were saved just listening to the message; no sinner's prayer or repentance. We made the Bible manageable and brought it down to our level (afterall, it is far superior to the way we think), therefore, all the supernatural and practical power in it have completely vanished from it in relating to our lives (and those of us who are honest will attest to this). As for Paul's thorn, I believe it was the religious Jews who followed him around everywhere trying to destroy him and the churches he planted. I can't imagine anything else vexing him so much that he would repeatedly ask a second opinion from the Lord who Paul heard clearly. That kind of thorn (constant resistance) is rarely healed away, because it makes a very strong Christian (one who can smash through resistance that makes others choose bondage over freedom) remember his dependence on the Lord. When you have all these gifts, power, authority, it's probably not possible to remain 100% humble. A persistent thorn reminds you that all your greatness is for the sake of others and that He blesses you mightily so can bless others mightily: ""I will bless you and make your name great, and you will be a blessing" (Gen. 12:2).

 

[RickyZ]

1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[SUP]a[/SUP] you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. 4Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[SUP]b[/SUP] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all. Acts 19

These disciples weren't Christians, the were Johnians. They were believing in a savior yet to come as John had preached. Paul was surprised to find they hadn't received the Holy Spirit upon believing, only to find they hadn't received the true baptism yet. Upon baptism into Christ they were immediately filled.

But, it doesn't matter. Whether filled at confession or filled subsequent to that, believers need to get filled one way or another and evidence the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The cork needs to be pulled. We're getting to the point where our survival - or apostasy - in is going to be in question.

 

[Allin]

1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[SUP]a[/SUP] you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. 4Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[SUP]b[/SUP] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all. Acts 19

These disciples weren't Christians, the were Johnians. They were believing in a savior yet to come as John had preached. Paul was surprised to find they hadn't received the Holy Spirit upon believing, only to find they hadn't received the true baptism yet. Upon baptism into Christ they were immediately filled.

But, it doesn't matter. Whether filled at confession or filled subsequent to that, believers need to get filled one way or another and evidence the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The cork needs to be pulled. We're getting to the point where our survival - or apostasy - in is going to be in question.

Those disciples were Christians. Some people stick to their guns out of pride; I, however, find it necessary to "contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3). The real faith is what brings results; what they have been teaching for many years does not change people from the inside out and therefore is not the real faith. For the sake of contending for the real faith (i.e. what the Bible and Jesus actually teach), I will reiterate what I said above beginning with part of the posted passage:

"[The disciples] were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied" (Acts 19:5-6).

1. Firstly, it's important to establish that the twelve people Paul ran into were in fact Christians. Many translations, including the KJV, calls them "disciples". Remember that John the Baptist died way before Jesus did. Before God, John the Baptist would have been counted as a disciple of Jesus (what we are stuck on calling "Christian" today) as Judas Iscariot was who fell away (Judas Iscariot was both a real Christian and a real apostle; he just happened to fall away, something that is possible for both real Christians and real ministers. They don't teach it today, but it's true). John the Baptist baptized to repentance, but that repentance to Christ not to John's clique. In other words, if you received John's baptism in Jesus' day,that would make you a Christian.

2. Secondly, Paul baptized those twelve disciples in Christ. I believe that today that would be the same as baptizing in water in Jesus' Name. And importantly, it was after Paul baptized them in Christ that he then laid hands on them, and then they were baptized with the Holy Spirit. The Bible seems to go to lengths to explain to us that the baptisms (water, Spirit, fire) are different, but traditions and mindsets have this ability to totally make people blind to clearly revealed truth and evidence.

It is very important to know that the Bible makes a clear distinction for us between baptism into Christ and baptism in the Holy Spirit. The distinction began with John who said he would baptize with water but One came after him who would baptize with the Holy Spirit. If Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, then the baptism into Jesus is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But the story of 'the Samaria revival' really shows us the distinction between being baptized into Christ and being baptized with the Holy Spirit. In Acts 8, Philip went to Samaria, and revival broke out (basically). The people believed ('received Christ') and were baptized (probably in water; baptized into Christ); but it was not till the apostles came that the people baptized into Christ were then baptized with the Holy Spirit. Follow me...

The Bible says that when news of the revival reached Jerusalem, Peter and John were sent down in order to baptize the people in the Spirit, "for as yet He (the Spirit) had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of Jesus" (v. 16). Here again (as at Jesus' own double baptism of water and the Spirit), the Bible clearly distinguishes between these two Members of the Godhead. Even in Simon the magician's reaction to the 'falling' of the Spirit, you can see that the Bible (through Simon) distinguishes the baptisms as separate from each other. Simon was baptized into Christ also, but he wasn't yet baptized by the Holy Spirit. The Bible includes the story of Cornelius the centurion whose entire household was baptized in the Holy Spirit just listening to the message. We see that they had 'received Christ' while listening but without saying any prayers; then the Spirit baptism came; then Peter commanded they be baptized in water. (Read Acts 10.) 'Receiving Jesus', water baptism, and Spirit baptism can happen in any order, but each one is indeed a distinct occasion.

Why do I think it's important to reiterate all this? Because error causes continual argument (and no growth) among Christians since error has this way of causing even people who agree with each other to disagree and quarrel. Error does that: it causes confusion, and "God is not the author of confusion". But when we say what the Bible says and then leave room for explaining and expounding (literally building on) what the Bible says (not expounding our own opinions), then there is room for peace.

 

[RickyZ]

'Receiving Jesus', water baptism, and Spirit baptism can happen in any order, but each one is indeed a distinct occasion.

You've certainly made some good arguments and have put me back to study on the subject. And I think what you say about confession/water/Spirit being 3 separate things that all believers should partake in is true. (Except there is an order, confession has to come first, then water and Spirit baptism can happen in either order). My sticking point is 1 John 4:15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. How does God live in me, and I in Him, outside of the Holy Spirit? That's why I believe that when we confess, we are indwelt. That is a one time, static state of salvation. Then what occurs at Baptism isn't the indwelling, but the pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon and thru you. And that's an action, that repeats on a smaller scale thru the gifts of the Spirit. There's a difference between the static salvic indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the active repeated moving of the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is an action that symbolizes the inner dwelling - Spiritual baptism is an action made possible by the inner dwelling. But the inner dwelling comes first, with acknowledging Jesus is the Son of God. At confession God lives in me and there's only one way that can happen.

Riddle me this... can someone who has not been baptized in the Holy Spirit produce the fruit of the Spirit?

But, not to argue my friend. Either way, the point to take away from this we agree on - that if you are a believer, you need to submit to Spiritual and water baptisms subsequent to your confession. There ARE spiritual benefits (and commands to, let's not forget that). If they happened along with your confession, praise God, if they didn't then they are to be sought out separately. And I think we'd agree that any believer who has not, should. Sooner rather than later.

 

[Allin]

You've certainly made some good arguments and have put me back to study on the subject. And I think what you say about confession/water/Spirit being 3 separate things that all believers should partake in is true. (Except there is an order, confession has to come first, then water and Spirit baptism can happen in either order). My sticking point is 1 John 4:15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. How does God live in me, and I in Him, outside of the Holy Spirit? That's why I believe that when we confess, we are indwelt. That is a one time, static state of salvation. Then what occurs at Baptism isn't the indwelling, but the pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon and thru you. And that's an action, that repeats on a smaller scale thru the gifts of the Spirit. There's a difference between the static salvic indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the active repeated moving of the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is an action that symbolizes the inner dwelling - Spiritual baptism is an action made possible by the inner dwelling. But the inner dwelling comes first, with acknowledging Jesus is the Son of God. At confession God lives in me and there's only one way that can happen.

Riddle me this... can someone who has not been baptized in the Holy Spirit produce the fruit of the Spirit?

But, not to argue my friend. Either way, the point to take away from this we agree on - that if you are a believer, you need to submit to Spiritual and water baptisms subsequent to your confession. There ARE spiritual benefits (and commands to, let's not forget that). If they happened along with your confession, praise God, if they didn't then they are to be sought out separately. And I think we'd agree that any believer who has not, should. Sooner rather than later.

Good stuff. A few statements and answers (what you said in blue):

1. There is an order, confession has to come first, then water and Spirit baptism can happen in either order. Yes. And confession must not necessarily be with the mouth/spoken but can be in the heart (as in the case of Cornelius' household).

2. That's why I believe that when we confess, we are indwelt. Confession is the same as 'receiving Christ' (as people say), and yes, at that moment we are indwelt.

3. There's a difference between the static salvic indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the active repeated moving of the Holy Spirit. Yes, the first is for salvation and the second for power to live the Life for self and for ministry.

4. That's an action, that repeats on a smaller scale thru the gifts of the Spirit. The baptism happens once to start, continual infillings can happen after that, and the gifts function due to the baptism but can be energized by infillings afterward (infillings aren't needed for the gifts to work; the baptism deposits the gifts in you, but infillings can 'supercharge them' if you will). The Spirit baptism is for power (perhaps better translated as 'ability' or 'enabling, enablement').

5. The inner dwelling comes first, with acknowledging Jesus is the Son of God. At confession God lives in me. Yes, and confession is not necessarily by the lips but in the heart. The lips will follow the heart always (except for the mute who can't speak but can still be saved since they must not make a verbal confession of Jesus as Lord; I know the Bible seems to say you must speak, but it can't mean speak because the mute would be exempt from salvation).

6. Can someone who has not been baptized in the Holy Spirit produce the fruit of the Spirit? Great question. If a person is 'saved' but not baptized in the Spirit, they cannot operate in the gifts of the Spirit (which come specifically by the baptism: tongues and prophecy often operated immediately after a baptism in the Bible), but they can produce fruits of the Spirit but like fruit not fed with the best of nutrients. The fruits of the Spirit are from the Spirit, and the Spirit is in the saved; the baptism of the Spirit is for power to live the Life (i.e. to walk in holiness and the fruits and to operate in supernatural gifts for the benefit of others). The baptism is like adding a nutrient-rich diet to the fruits; it gives POWER to the fruits (and to everything about the Christian), but a Christian isn't required to be baptized in the Spirit to produce fruits. However, the Bible requires that all Christians be baptized in water and the Spirit. It's one of those things.

7. If you are a believer, you need to submit to Spiritual and water baptisms subsequent to your confession. There ARE spiritual benefits (and commands to, let's not forget that). Absolutely.

 

[RickyZ]

Hugs, buddy. You're awesome.

 

[Allin]

Hugs, buddy. You're awesome.

Sure. And all that was based on my own understanding mostly (i.e. I don't fully have that together) which is one reason why I didn't give any Bible passages. When I know for sure, then passages will automatically come to me, even about things the Bible doesn't specifically talk about or things I haven't read about in ages-- passages I don't even recall reading. I'm still wondering about what Jesus meant when He talked to Nicodemus in Jn. 3. He uses several different references for being 'born again'. It's only when He opens it to me that I know, like once when I had to write a paper on that Jn. 3 passage and had no clue till I began writing. When I turned it in to the teacher, he was amazed and learned things he hadn't known before (neither had I till I began writing which happens very frequently on this forum by the way; lol). However, I've forgotten what He showed me back then about the same passage (being born again)! So, I've learned for sure that what God said is absolutely true: 'man lives' (or 'Christianity works') not by the manna he collected yesterday (what he learned yesterday) or several minutes ago but by the currently-proceeding Word of God which is revelation in the moment.