Apostle Paul On Tongues In 1 Corinthians

kohelet · Sep 3, 2016

Not all the gifts have ceased .Just the ones that involve new prophecy, the substance of a tongue.

Existing prophecy (the perfect) is still used to prophecy( the gift) by those who bring the gospel, hoping those who hear it, mix it with faith (the unseen) not that seen personal experiences.

The perfect (prophecy) gives us the complete revelation of God with no laws missing by which we could know him more intimately. . It is a faith gift, spiritual, not seen. Tongues, are a warning against those who do not believe the prophecy but look to some work they could do outwardly according to their own flesh to give them the confidence they are children of God . It is something I believe, a believer could get caught up in as being led astray .

Spiritual gifts are gifts not seen and neither are recognized by that which one experiences outwardly.(walking by sight)

That I believe can be viewed in respect to the trial of Christ's faith in Mathew 4 .This is when as the father prepared him for the priestly ministry. Having been baptized by John from the tribe of Levi needed as a an officiator to baptize Jesus from the tribe of Judah so he could be minister. Being obedient, fulfilling the old testament purifying, ceremonial law required when a new priest entered the ministry .The purpose of baptism, for the whole kingdom of priest (the believers).

It like tongues, it is not a personal sign as evidence a person has the Holy Spirit. Again there is no outward sign just an inward change of heart according to a new spirit hopefully and by that spirit we cry out Abba Father in our time of need..

This is when Christ as the son of man which spoke of the temporal flesh experienced seeing all the Kingdom of the world and all their glory without moving one inch in the sand .Something some call out of body experiences but is simply demons bringing in lying signs and wonders.

Christ believed not but said again and again ,as it is written (no outward sign, save the sign of Jonah)

Hi garee,

Good to hear from you!

So the perfect is the Bible, is that what you're saying? Paul said that when the perfect comes we would no longer see as through a glass, darkly, but rather "face to face". Have you seen God face to face? This is what the expression refers to. When the perfect comes "we will know even as we are fully known". We are fully known by God. Do you know this fully?

I was asking Roger how many perfects there are. How many do you think there are? That was really my question.

wattie · Sep 3, 2016

kohelet said:

One perfect thing.. the completed revelation of God in the bible. In 1 Corinthians 13.. with this coming.. there is still future gifts after this point in operation.. hence.. the gifts of faith, hope and love.

Not sure what you mean by how many perfects..

Do you mean.. that there has to be something else other than the complete revelation of God's Word.. another perfect thing again afterward?

Way I see in scripture-- apostles do their thing.. they are accompanied by signs and wonders.. gifts to empower them.. then the churches are set up. The Word of God is completed. Christians can then have a guide.. a 'road code' for themselves. They don't then need signs and wonders.. don't need the supernatural gifts..because they have scripture.

Prophecy, tongues and ministry gifts associated with revelation of God's Word. Then the complete God's Word swallows up the partial revelation in progress. Gifts put away.

Faith, hope and love continue.

But from this view.. I don't see why there would be more than one 'perfect thing' or 'that which is perfect.'

kohelet · Sep 3, 2016

wattie said:

That's right, Mick. There is only one perfect. To understand what it is, we need to ask ourselves whether we see face to face and know even as we're fully known. The perfect will do away with the partial, according to Paul. This would mean that all the gifts are partial and the parousia is the perfect. Calvin believed this and called any view that makes the perfect something that happens Before Jesus comes again (or we die) "stupid".

So yes, I don't see that scripture is "the perfect" because of 1 Cor. 13:12.13.

And faith, hope and love aren't gifts, actually.

garee · Sep 3, 2016

RBA238 said:

its not a matter of if the interpretation of God into ones own language was used as prophecy ,But how long?

Yes many did while God was still bringing new prophecy.( past tense) Just as it ( prophecy) is recorded .He is just not recording any new because he has no need , new prophecy has ceased.
It would seem to be the bottom line. Experience after some work we could do (walking by sight) from what I understand is not the validator of spiritual gifts, prophecy alone is. Scripture proves scripture.

We, I believe are to walk/understand God by faith (his workings in us) not by outward manifestations as a work we can do that some say are needed to prove inwardly we are children of faith. (Having the Holy Spirit)

Like that of tongues, a sign designed to be against those who believe prophecy to the salvation of their souls. Prophecy is for the believer .Outward signs for those who believe not prophecy or what scripture calls directly “no faith”. That is seeing believing God is not based on our own imaginations of our heart as a source of faith, but alone on the word of God.

He calls natural man regardless of what nation, a froward generation, the generation of Adam .un- converted man. And not a believer, called the generation of Christ those who walk by a faith alone, as that generated by the scriptures again, and not generated by our experiences as to what we see. But what he sees spiritually as he illuminates the eyes of our new hearts.

It’s like he told the Israelites when he moved them out of Egypt .When he sees the blood spiritually not as they apply it as something they literally experienced .

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, “children in whom is no faith”.

We are given a new eternal spirit at the moment we can and therefore do believe God who has no form .Our new eternal spirit gives us a desire to cry out Abba father, not to walk by sight after our own experiences .

There are many other signs in both the Old and New Testament that are not gifts to prove we believe God not seen. But rather are for those who rebel and insist on doing something outwardly to prove that not seen inwardly. They follow the believer again, it’s not proof they do believe, even when used in parables (Mar 16:16) that do hide the spiritual meanings. . It does not mean he is obligated to perform that work followed by a sign again and again.

Christians I believe are not led by signs as a desire for us to work and hope we will have evidence that would please God.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mar 16:16
Signs follow them that believe not lead them to believe.

In the Old testament we are given the example of the serpent on a bronze pole .That parable showed us the same things, signs are twofold .(1) Prophecy for the believer by the faith of God (not of our own self ) that comes from hearing God , the hearing of faith turns them to look to believe, witnessed by they did not die from poison . while (2) prophecy that did not move the others showed they died because it did not work in them to turn and look..
The prophecy that did not take effect did not turn them to look at it. After wards the same ones that refused to walk by the faith of God, that could turn a person to hear God .They worshiped the one time temporal image as a remedy of taking in poison to show they had the Holy Spirit. . Just as some of Pentecostal sign churches today. Where even some had added another sign called “falling back” and being slain in the spirit. Which is another sign that shows they believe not the prophecy but are putting their hope in something seen rather than the unseen spiritual gifts.

And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. Num 21:6

Those who did not follow the prophecy (words heard) to look.... did not live. Again it was the prophecy that moved them as it worked in them to both will and do the good pleasure of God. It would seem fool as those who do not acknowledge God in what they believe pertaining to matters of faith they are quick to run in and make signs the evidence they do have, the Holy Spirit. Therefore turning the one time use of a sign into a work they could perform outwardly. Ultimately called idol worship.

He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)

notuptome · Sep 3, 2016

RBA238 said:

In Acts tongues were for a sign to the unsaved Jews that were present when Gentiles got saved. This is made clear when the accounts were told to James and the other Apostles in Jerusalem.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

garee · Sep 3, 2016

kohelet said:

Hi Kohelet....Thanks for the reply,

I can offer my two cents..

I think the whole will of God, the perfect is there. It’s where we find the warning, as a perfect law not to add or subtract from the whole. (Genesis 1, through Revelation 22)

When it comes to "face to face" we know God is supernatural which denotes without a beginning he therefore has no form to behold. But rather “face to face” is represented by “faith to faith”. Which is the faith to believe God,(the gospel) by the same faith of God to believe Him to the salvation of one’s soul

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from "faith to faith": as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Rom 1:16

I think the face of God represents his invisible presence in the same way he uses the bosom of Abraham to generically point to the invisible presence or the cloud of his witness which is greater than the witness of men..

It’s when men try and give God a form as the things of men that things begin to get turned upside down. Even Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of god as the Son of man resisted what some call face to face. In order to keep faith the unseen principle Jesus would say only God was good. He was not saying the eternal Spirit of God that worked in the son of man was not of God but that when we think of God no literal face comes up as walking by sight.

I can give an example to help show where I get the idea from.

Moses already being informed what the face of God could be reckoned as fire to show us that God is the judge. Therefore afraid of the judgment of God by fire. God is not fire.

Exodus 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

If Moses hid his face it could not reckoned as literal face to face.

Later we can see God covering Moses face with a veil likened to one rent from the top to the bottom indicating the beginning of the first century reformation.

And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him. And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him. Exo 34:29

Moses face reflected he was in the invisible presence of God , as the glory of God .The reaction was they themselves were afraid to come near Moses who was not claiming to be God.

Compare that to another passage found in Numbers 12, where because of jealousy which seems to want to stack sides they came against their brother Moses. In that passage rather than using face to face to describe the invisible e presence of God, he uses mouth to mouth.

And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman. And they said, Hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the LORD heard it. (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous. Num 12:1-10

The cloud this time and not fire as the first represented face to face to.... invisible presence of God.

And this time rather than their faces shown they were in the presence of God .God used the second sign Moses was to give to the Pharaoh that showed Aaron and Miriam walked in unbelief ( the sign of dead flesh and blood without new never ending spirit life ) leprous, white as snow. It is a disease of no pain like that of a calloused or hard heart, no sensitively to unseen spiritual matters.

I think the use of the word dark speeches in that verse above is a reflection of 1 Corinthians 13 as we seeing darkly through that we did have in part.

notuptome · Sep 3, 2016

kohelet said:

God only said that three would end. These are sign gifts and signs are for Jews not Gentiles. As the primitive church became established and God word was given and recorded the Gentiles became the inheritors of the blessing and blindness fell upon the Jews. Just as Jesus said when He was at the judgment before the Romans.

1 Cor 13:8 gives only three that will end. Throughout the bible tongues are a sign of judgment.

The word translated perfect in the old King James English often refers to complete rather than the newer definition of without flaw.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome · Sep 3, 2016

reneweddaybyday said:

All you are able to muster is an unsupported argument from emotion not from the scriptures. Reasoning from the scriptures will not over come hyper-spiritualism and new age mysticism because of emotion. Emotion is was cause Adam to turn against God in the garden.

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

Many, many times I have quoted 1 Cor 13:8. There you will find the specific gifts that have ended.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

wattie · Sep 3, 2016

kohelet said:

Well,

thanks for the reply

To start--

The bible reveals fully who we are in Jesus, or without Jesus. So it is a complete reflection.. like a mirror.

With the apostles doing their thing, this was a partial reflection. They knew some knowledge of God, the churches were being established, Christianity thru the New Testament was in it's infancy. This is all associated with the partial.

Ephesians 4 is related to this.. where the gifts are in operation TILL 'we all come to the knowledge of the unity of the faith' and then after this point..

Eph 4:13-14 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,

This scripture fits like a glove with the bible being the unity of the faith.. knowledge of the Son of God.. unto a perfect man (mature, complete, fully furnished).. a measure of the stature of the fulless of Christ...

If I made this part in Ephesians to be the 2nd coming of Christ..

Why then after this point.. would scripture have people--

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, ?

It would be silly to say something like this with the 2nd coming of Christ.. the believer is made 100 percent sinless in heaven.

That would be like me saying to you.. after you are dead.. you won't be swayed by the false teachers in your life.

That's a bit silly! That is completely obvious. Paul doesn't use this kind of writing as far as I am aware.

Anyway.. as you can see I haven't moved on this

Good to hear from ya again anyhoo

reneweddaybyday · Sep 4, 2016

UnderGrace said:

The word "unknown" was added by translators and the word does not appear in the Greek text.

The verse is written in the NIV, ESV NAS as For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays ...

And the verse is written in the NLV as For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying ...

The verse states that when a believer prays in tongues, it is his/her spirit praying.

UnderGrace said:

Paul gives instruction as to the proper use of the manifestation of kinds of tongues, the manifestation of interpretation of tongues, and the manifestation of prophecy within the Church congregation.

Paul instructs that in the Church congregation the manifestation of kinds of tongues is to be spoken silently by the believer when there is no interpreter (1 Cor 14:28) because on its own with no interpretation, tongues is prayer (1 Cor 14:14).

Paul does not say in vs 28 that the believer is not to pray in tongues in the Church congregation. All he says is the believer is to speak in tongues silently to God.

reneweddaybyday · Sep 4, 2016

garee said:

In 1 Cor 14:14, the word "if" is the Greek word ean.

Interestingly enough, that same Greek word (ean) is translated "when" in 1 Cor 14:16 Else when (Greek ean) thou shalt bless with the spirit ...

garee said:

Right. There is no commandment that all prayer must be by way of the manifestation of tongues.

garee said:

Praying in tongues is the believer's spirit praying (1 Cor 14:14). The spirit which was made alive at the time of the new birth. It is also referred to as the inward man (2 Cor 4:16); the inner man (Eph 3:16), the new man (Eph 4:24).

garee said:

1 Cor 12:7 specifically states the manifestation is given to profit (benefit).

1 Cor 14:4 specifically states the believer is built up when he/she speaks in tongues.

So for you to claim speaking in tongues is "unfruitful", you are denying Scripture.

garee said:

That does not negate the next verse which indicates For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified (1 Cor 14:17).

The whole point of 1 Cor 14 is to give instructions as to the proper use of the manifestation of kinds of tongues, the manifestation of interpretation of tongues, and the manifestation of prophecy.

Yes, in the Church congregation, no one understands when a believer pray in tongues, so they cannot say "Amen".

But there is absolutely no commandment which indicates we are not to speak in tongues. In fact, the commandment is do not forbid speaking in tongues:

1 Corinthians 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

And not understanding what is spoken in tongues does not negate the fact that speaking in tongues is blessing with the spirit and it is giving thanks:

1 Corinthians 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

And not only is speaking in tongues giving of thanks, speaking in tongues gives thanks well:

1 Corinthians 14:17] For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

The fact that only the tongues-speaker is edified (built up) does not make void that speaking in tongues is giving thanks well.

The fact that only the tongues-speaker is edified is the reason why Paul addresses this aspect of speaking in tongues in the Church congregation.

Please note, speaking in tongues in the Church congregation with no interpretation is not forbidden. The instruction is that in the Church congregation, if there is no interpretation, the believer is to speak in tongues silently to God:

1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

reneweddaybyday · Sep 4, 2016

UnderGrace said:

That is not what the verse says, UnderGrace, and you know it. You have changed the words of Scripture.

God’s version:

1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;

UnderGrace version:

Someone that is showing off his knowledge of a foreign language that no one else around knows“edifieth himself” alone (1 Corinthians 14:4)]

Shame on you!

BenFTW · Sep 4, 2016

reneweddaybyday said:

So much misunderstanding and misrepresentation, not to mention describing what the Corinthians were doing falsely. Like... just irritating to be honest. VVas about to make a thread on it, but... meh.

reneweddaybyday · Sep 4, 2016

notuptome said:

Personal attack due to your inability to refute the Scripture posted.

notuptome said:

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

So, according to you,

the manifestation of prophecy has ceased;

the manifestation of kinds of tongues has ceased; and

the manifestation of word of knowledge has ceased.

Is that your position? Thanks.

UnderGrace · Sep 4, 2016

Actually now that I think about it I cannot take complete credit for this insightful analysis and correct understanding since it was taught to me by someone who studies Koine Greek.

I am not ashamed of anything the scripture teaches especially when it is correctly understood.

"Shame on me" LOL you make me laugh.

By the way that is exactly what is says and means.

reneweddaybyday said:

UnderGrace · Sep 4, 2016

Well reneweddaybyday you are absolutely correct it was added to emphasize the idea that Paul was talking about a foreign

tongue since it was well known to be a city with many dialects and languages, in the KJV is it italicized, if you could just

understand the the word Greek means language then maybe you truly see what this chapter is about.

It is same in other languages, in Italian the word lingua means tongue the physical tongue and languages.

You read the word tongue and you automatically associate it with some mysterious utterances from the Holy Spirit.
Read chapter 14 and substitute the word language and maybe you will see what Paul was truly dealing with a carnal self-absorbed church that lacked love with people that were showing off.

reneweddaybyday said:

reneweddaybyday · Sep 4, 2016

UnderGrace said:

Just because someone studies Koine Greek does not mean he/interprets scripture correctly.

What if your Koine Greek scholar believed the manifestation of kinds of tongues was still energized by God in our day and time? Would you still study under him/her?

Or would you drop him/her and look for a Koine Greek scholar who has the same disdain for the manifestation you do?

UnderGrace said:

Yes, you are ashamed of what Scripture teaches. Because Scripture does not teach that the manifestation of tongues has ceased (or interpretation of tongues or prophecy, for that matter).

UnderGrace said:

Not surprising. : |

UnderGrace said:

I know what was going on in the church at Corinth and I know how the believers were behaving.

BenFTW · Sep 4, 2016

reneweddaybyday said:

Just because someone studies Koine Greek does not mean he/interprets scripture correctly.

What if your Koine Greek scholar believed the manifestation of kinds of tongues was still energized by God in our day and time? Would you still study under him/her?

Or would you drop him/her and look for a Koine Greek scholar who has the same disdain for the manifestation you do?

Yes, you are ashamed of what Scripture teaches. Because Scripture does not teach that the manifestation of tongues has ceased (or interpretation of tongues or prophecy, for that matter).

Not surprising. : |

I know what was going on in the church at Corinth and I know how the believers were behaving.

Really!? VVhen did you become a vampire? Its been centuries.

UnderGrace · Sep 4, 2016

Wow, I rather reason with someone who studies in the original language and has a solid foundation in the faith than put my

faith in a manifestation that re-emerged in 1901 as supposed biblical language. I suppose you also believe that angel

feathers, gold dust and diamonds will be making their appearance across the nation in due time too!

I could say more about these manifestations but I will leave it there.

reneweddaybyday said:

kohelet · Sep 4, 2016

wattie said:

Well,

thanks for the reply

To start--

The bible reveals fully who we are in Jesus, or without Jesus. So it is a complete reflection.. like a mirror.

With the apostles doing their thing, this was a partial reflection. They knew some knowledge of God, the churches were being established, Christianity thru the New Testament was in it's infancy. This is all associated with the partial.

Ephesians 4 is related to this.. where the gifts are in operation TILL 'we all come to the knowledge of the unity of the faith' and then after this point..

Eph 4:13-14 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,

This scripture fits like a glove with the bible being the unity of the faith.. knowledge of the Son of God.. unto a perfect man (mature, complete, fully furnished).. a measure of the stature of the fulless of Christ...

If I made this part in Ephesians to be the 2nd coming of Christ..

Why then after this point.. would scripture have people--

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, ?

It would be silly to say something like this with the 2nd coming of Christ.. the believer is made 100 percent sinless in heaven.

That would be like me saying to you.. after you are dead.. you won't be swayed by the false teachers in your life.

That's a bit silly! That is completely obvious. Paul doesn't use this kind of writing as far as I am aware.

Anyway.. as you can see I haven't moved on this

Good to hear from ya again anyhoo

G'day Mick,

Thanks for the thought-provoking comments. Ephesians 4 would fit like a glove the view that the bible is the unity of faith if you believe that evangelists, pastors and teachers were also superseded by the writing of the bible. The gifts you say were in operation "TILL 'we all come to the knowledge of the unity of the faith'" include these. You'd have in mind all the gifts Paul mentions, right?

Apostle Paul On Tongues In 1 Corinthians

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