Are Mormon claims of the miraculous as valid as others?

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Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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#61
Jul 18, 2017
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#61
DJ2 said:
I am rather surprised by how many are missing the point of the OP. The question is not if the theology of the Mormon church is correct but are their claims of physical supernatural manifestations based on real events or simply fraud.
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Their theology has a bearing on their claims. If they are involved in False Christianity then by definition all their claims are false.

But Pentecostals are generally born again believers, and their claims may be based on self-deception rather than Satanic miracles. Personally I believe that the time for signs, wonders, and miracles was the apostolic period, and there is absolutely no biblical basis for the "slain in the Spirit" phenomenon.
 
M

mcubed

Senior Member
#62
Dec 20, 2013
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#62
DJ2 said:
Are we to judge the validity of claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit by which group does the claiming? Many dismiss Mormon claims of raising the dead, healing the sick, giving sight to the blind and speaking in tongues as fraudulent, while giving a pass to the claims of more accepted groups. It seems that any group claiming such abilities should be held to the same level of scrutiny.

Simply put, are all claims the same?
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The witch of Endor raised Samuel from the dead for King Saul... Is it the same?

Why is the counterfeit so appealing? Every LIE HAS A RING OF TRUTH!!!! But still counterfeit, a lie!!!!
 
DJ2

DJ2

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Apr 15, 2017
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Nehemiah6 said:
Their theology has a bearing on their claims. If they are involved in False Christianity then by definition all their claims are false.

But Pentecostals are generally born again believers, and their claims may be based on self-deception rather than Satanic miracles. Personally I believe that the time for signs, wonders, and miracles was the apostolic period, and there is absolutely no biblical basis for the "slain in the Spirit" phenomenon.
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I believe that the claims of both groups are fraudulent. Both groups present no evidence for such claims and instead offer hearsay to what should be self-evident, a damning combination. This is the point of the OP, that both groups use fraudulent claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit to support their theology.

One gets a pass, "Well, who knows maybe it is happening".

The other gets, "This is proof that Satan is working miracles in their midst".
 
CS1

CS1

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#64
May 23, 2012
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#64
DJ2 said:
Before we judge claims of the physical supernatural being from God or Satan, it must first be assessed to be of supernatural origin. Since acts of the supernatural are self-evident and when no evidence is presented there is little need to label them as Satanic. They are simply frauds.

This song and dance about these events occurring within the Mormon Church being real but of Satan is nothing more than cover for the fraudulent claims of the Pentecostal movement.
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that is not true and you are making a claim from the position of bais. Are you pentecostel? , do you even know when the so-called movement began I bet you don't . But I could be wrong :)
 
Didymous

Didymous

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Feb 22, 2018
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#65
CS1 said:
that is not true and you are making a claim from the position of bais. Are you pentecostel? , do you even know when the so-called movement began I bet you don't . But I could be wrong :)
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Perhaps you're referring to the Bethel Bible School started by Charles F. Parham in Topeka, Kansas in 1900? Or maybe on the first day of 1901 when Agnes Ozman spoke in tongues there? Or maybe you mean the Azuza street revival?
 
DJ2

DJ2

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CS1 said:
that is not true and you are making a claim from the position of bais. Are you pentecostel? , do you even know when the so-called movement began I bet you don't . But I could be wrong :)
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We all have a personal bias, this is nothing new. But a bias does not make a answer wrong. Are you Pentecostal? Do you have a bias? I most certainly do know when the new-age Pentecostal movement started. Do you?

If you believe the claims of the Mormon and Pentecostal movements are a fraud explain why. Explain why we should accept the claims of physical supernatural events as real from one group and not the other. If both groups claim but neither can produce evidence of their claims what difference does their theology make. They are both frauds.

BTW, I am from Baton Rouge, the home of Jimmy Swaggart Ministries and am very well versed on both the claims and teachings of Pentecostalism.
 
CS1

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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#67
Didymous said:
Perhaps you're referring to the Bethel Bible School started by Charles F. Parham in Topeka, Kansas in 1900? Or maybe on the first day of 1901 when Agnes Ozman spoke in tongues there? Or maybe you mean the Azuza street revival?
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NOPE

I am speaking of Acts chapter 2 were in the very word of God states the Holy Spirit empowered the church. Luke recorded this about 80 AD. there has been well documented eyewitnesses from the 80 AD to present day.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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#68
DJ2 said:
I believe that the claims of both groups are fraudulent.
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I trust you have personally witnessed many Pentecostal meetings and you are in a position to give specifics. I believe there is more self-deception than fraud per se (other than people like Benny Hinn), but it would be better if you provided a half-dozen examples of deliberate fraud in Pentecostal meetings.
 
CS1

CS1

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#69
May 23, 2012
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#69
DJ2 said:
We all have a personal bias, this is nothing new. But a bias does not make a answer wrong. Are you Pentecostal? Do you have a bias? I most certainly do know when the new-age Pentecostal movement started. Do you?

If you believe the claims of the Mormon and Pentecostal movements are a fraud explain why. Explain why we should accept the claims of physical supernatural events as real from one group and not the other. If both groups claim but neither can produce evidence of their claims what difference does their theology make. They are both frauds.

BTW, I am from Baton Rouge, the home of Jimmy Swaggart Ministries and am very well versed on both the claims and teachings of Pentecostalism.
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yes it does make it wrong, in context to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. this is were you and I differ, I do not even give time or labor to the "claims" of the mormon church. They deny the Deity of Christ, and that HE is God. So I teach as the Word of God says in:

Rom 16:17 "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."


They are false and have a spirit of anti-christ

1john 4:1-3


"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."



and we are to LET them be. So if they deny Christ tell me why would I even concider thier so-caled claim of tongues ? Oxymornon. You say mormon and pentecostal movements are a fraud". There is your bias.

You tie in pentacostels to mormons and pentacostels do not deny the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes they have issues with the gifts of the Holy Spirit and doctrine I do not agree with but so does every chritian church. You error in this continuelly. You assume they are all frauds and you can't possiblly know that( pentacostels). But Pride will not allow you to say other wises. By the way, if been from baton Rouge the home of Jimmy Swaggart; makes you very well versed on the teaching of pentacostelism then you should know the contrast between them and mormons, clearly you don't.

JSM no more speaks for all pentacostels as the mormons do the Deity of Christ collectively because they teach against this.

Acts chapters 1 and 2 speaks for it. The Gospel of Mark and John 14, 16 chapters speak. The chapter of 1cor 12, 13, and 14 speak for it.

You are not well versed in the gifts of the Holy Spirit you have not even used one verse to make your point.
you Conjure up mormons claims and failed preachers morally . Any biblical refutes to support your claim of the gifts of the Holy Spirt? or just that you have not seen it and only abuses of the gifts that I and many others said do happen.
 
Didymous

Didymous

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Feb 22, 2018
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#70
I disagree with you about that, mainly because misunderstanding of the account in Acts seems to have caused more division in Christendom than anything else.
 
CS1

CS1

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Didymous said:
I disagree with you about that, mainly because misunderstanding of the account in Acts seems to have caused more division in Christendom than anything else.
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that is your opinon could you please provide contextually the biblical misunderstanding . and support it by the word of God your opinon? I stand by Acts 1 and 2 and other aeras in Acts and 1cor 12, 13, and 14 . The only division is the lack of ability tom support the opinon so of course it has to be division. Kind of like telling the truth to a liberial it's seen as racist lol
 
Didymous

Didymous

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Feb 22, 2018
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#72
As an example, I've been told that-since I dont speak in tongues, I don't have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Could you show me the scriptures that actually teach that?
I've also been told that I haven't been filled with the Holy Spirit if I don't speak in tongues. Can you show me the scriptures that actually teach that? You show me yours and I'll show you mine.
 
Didymous

Didymous

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Feb 22, 2018
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#73
Didymous said:
As an example, I've been told that-since I dont speak in tongues, I don't have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Could you show me the scriptures that actually teach that?
I've also been told that I haven't been filled with the Holy Spirit if I don't speak in tongues. Can you show me the scriptures that actually teach that? You show me yours and I'll show you mine.
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I forgot this one. There's a 'second blessing,' and if you don't have this, you don't have much. I've heard a few
Pentecostal pastors say this. Can you.show me any new testament scripture that actually teach this? I say NT because so many times the OT is referenced for supporting evidence.
 
CS1

CS1

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#74
May 23, 2012
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#74
Didymous said:
As an example, I've been told that-since I dont speak in tongues, I don't have the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Could you show me the scriptures that actually teach that?
I've also been told that I haven't been filled with the Holy Spirit if I don't speak in tongues. Can you show me the scriptures that actually teach that? You show me yours and I'll show you mine.
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so you want me to answer you question before you answer your opinon biblically >?

Ok I will try :) Also those who told that should have been able to suport thier understanding with the word of God too should they have not?

first can you tell what is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

 
CS1

CS1

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#75
May 23, 2012
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#75
Didymous said:
I forgot this one. There's a 'second blessing,' and if you don't have this, you don't have much. I've heard a few
Pentecostal pastors say this. Can you.show me any new testament scripture that actually teach this? I say NT because so many times the OT is referenced for supporting evidence.
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I will answer this one there is no second blessing :) I address this some time ago in a post about 6 months ago
 
CS1

CS1

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#76
May 23, 2012
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#76
Didymous said:
I forgot this one. There's a 'second blessing,' and if you don't have this, you don't have much. I've heard a few
Pentecostal pastors say this. Can you.show me any new testament scripture that actually teach this? I say NT because so many times the OT is referenced for supporting evidence.
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I try to answer many of these thing in this thread i strted :

[h=2]"Acts /1cor 12, 13, 14 baptsim in the HG and gifts of the Spirit"[/h]
 
Gabriel2020

Gabriel2020

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May 6, 2017
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#77
For those that don't have the gift of speaking in tongues by the holy spirit, which is one of the gifts of the holy spirit to speak in tongues on a daily basis by the power of God. The baptism of the holy spirit is a one time thing, backed up by speaking in tongues at that very moment which is the evidence that you have received the holy spirit. But if you have not ask for that gift, then you will not speak the tongue on a daily basis as some do.
 
CS1

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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#78
Gabriel2020 said:
For those that don't have the gift of speaking in tongues by the holy spirit, which is one of the gifts of the holy spirit to speak in tongues on a daily basis by the power of God. The baptism of the holy spirit is a one time thing, backed up by speaking in tongues at that very moment which is the evidence that you have received the holy spirit. But if you have not ask for that gift, then you will not speak the tongue on a daily basis as some do.
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I would like to see that point Biblically you have made. 1. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is for power to be a witness Acts 1:8

the Gift of Tongues found in 1cor 12, 13, and 14 is for the body of Christ and self-edifcation . Bot a work of the Holy Spirit by the Holy Spirit to accomplish two things

For a witness to the believer and Edifcation to the collective body of Christ when they come together.
 
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Gabriel2020

Gabriel2020

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That is after baptism of the holy ghost. If you tossed a rock in the water, then what evidence is there to prove you tossed it in. Everything Jesus did, or said was backed up by some evidence.
 
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