Are Mormon claims of the miraculous as valid as others?
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Didymous,
It's fine that you answer in Ariel's stead.
Have you considered how it was that Simon in verse 18 saw (observed, could clearly tell) that those people had received the Holy Ghost at the laying on of hands(verse 17) as opposed to the fact that they hadn't received it when they "believed"(verse 12) or when they "received the word of God"(verse 14) or when they "were baptized" (also verse 12)?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
It's fine that you answer in Ariel's stead.
Have you considered how it was that Simon in verse 18 saw (observed, could clearly tell) that those people had received the Holy Ghost at the laying on of hands(verse 17) as opposed to the fact that they hadn't received it when they "believed"(verse 12) or when they "received the word of God"(verse 14) or when they "were baptized" (also verse 12)?
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Well, Simon had already seen those miracles and not associated it with receiving the Holy Ghost. And there is another account where some onlookers were astonished when other individuals received the Holy Ghost...and it explains the part that isn't explained here.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
I would think he saw them also, but he assuredly saw those referenced in verse 13 because it states he continued with them "beholding" (observing) those miracles....without the holy ghost being given during any of those miracles. Something speciific happened at the laying on of the apostles hands that was observable and gave witness that these people now have the Holy Ghost. And that missing piece, too, is clarified in another account.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
I would say, if you have the Holy Spirit, then you agree fully with the scripture. F.e.What says the Holy Spirit about the role of the woman in the church? And what says the pentecostal and charismatic abochurch role of woman in the church. Ore what says the Holy Spirit about false prophets and how false prophets in the charismatic ore pentecostal movements are treatet?
The Holy Spirit never would teach against his own word.
The Holy Spirit never would teach against his own word.
Wolfwint,
Please consider that you could be wrong in that assumption.
Let’s consider Peter:
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
And Paul:
Act 21:4 And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.
Was the Spirit telling Paul NOT to go to Jerusalem? Yes.
Did Paul go anyway? Yes.
If we agree that both Peter and Paul had received the Holy Ghost, then it seems clear that having the Holy Ghost does NOT guarantee either full agreement with scripture, or that a person will always agree with or obey the Holy Ghost. (Which also calls into question the doctrine that claims you can tell if a person has received the Holy Ghost by how they live their life.)
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Please consider that you could be wrong in that assumption.
Let’s consider Peter:
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
And Paul:
Act 21:4 And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.
Was the Spirit telling Paul NOT to go to Jerusalem? Yes.
Did Paul go anyway? Yes.
If we agree that both Peter and Paul had received the Holy Ghost, then it seems clear that having the Holy Ghost does NOT guarantee either full agreement with scripture, or that a person will always agree with or obey the Holy Ghost. (Which also calls into question the doctrine that claims you can tell if a person has received the Holy Ghost by how they live their life.)
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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Yes, all are false claims. God is no longer brining new prophecy to confirm a current event or one to come. The fulfilled sign of Jonasas three days in the belly of the Whale was completed by the Son of man, Jesus.
He informs us its an evil generation, the generation ofnatural unconverted men that seek after lying signs and wonders, with signs speaking of that seen the temporal, and wonders as a source of faith, theunseen eternal.
I would think why go above that which is written as the once source of Christian faith, the prophecy. Why a outward sign if we walk by faith?
We walk by faith the unseen spiritual not after signs andwonder gospel as did the apostate Jew requiring a sign before they would commit to faith.
We mix the faith of Christ that works in us in what we dohear what the Spirit is saying to the churches. According to the mixing offaith we can enter His Sabbath rest when we do not harden our new hearts.
Search to find the meaning of the term mixing faithin what we do hear or see it can be beneficial in understand why we are not to look for a signs and wonders gospel as some sort of out of the body experience, the new age doctrine
Hebrews 4 King James Version (KJV) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being leftus of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. Forunto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preacheddid not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Forwe which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in mywrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished fromthe foundation of the world.For he spake in a certain place of the seventh dayon this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.And in thisplace again, If they shall enter into my rest.Seeing therefore it remaineththat some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached enterednot in because of unbelief:Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David,To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice,harden not your hearts.
Anytime we hear his voice of the scriptures and harden not our hearts we know it the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God working in us to both will and do his unseen pleasure as we work it out, with Him.
The same scenario in the garden when God who is not a manas us having no form as to His authority was deceived by another kind ofauthority as that seen( the temporal) when the father of lies, the god of this world put his lying words in the mouth of a serpent as in instant gratification. No faith needed.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Genesis 3
No such thing as a sign gift. Signs are against those who believe not the word of God as the one and only source of Christian faith.... the rebels, prophecy for those who believe.
He informs us its an evil generation, the generation ofnatural unconverted men that seek after lying signs and wonders, with signs speaking of that seen the temporal, and wonders as a source of faith, theunseen eternal.
I would think why go above that which is written as the once source of Christian faith, the prophecy. Why a outward sign if we walk by faith?
We walk by faith the unseen spiritual not after signs andwonder gospel as did the apostate Jew requiring a sign before they would commit to faith.
We mix the faith of Christ that works in us in what we dohear what the Spirit is saying to the churches. According to the mixing offaith we can enter His Sabbath rest when we do not harden our new hearts.
Search to find the meaning of the term mixing faithin what we do hear or see it can be beneficial in understand why we are not to look for a signs and wonders gospel as some sort of out of the body experience, the new age doctrine
Hebrews 4 King James Version (KJV) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being leftus of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. Forunto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preacheddid not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Forwe which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in mywrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished fromthe foundation of the world.For he spake in a certain place of the seventh dayon this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.And in thisplace again, If they shall enter into my rest.Seeing therefore it remaineththat some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached enterednot in because of unbelief:Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David,To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice,harden not your hearts.
Anytime we hear his voice of the scriptures and harden not our hearts we know it the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God working in us to both will and do his unseen pleasure as we work it out, with Him.
The same scenario in the garden when God who is not a manas us having no form as to His authority was deceived by another kind ofauthority as that seen( the temporal) when the father of lies, the god of this world put his lying words in the mouth of a serpent as in instant gratification. No faith needed.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Genesis 3
No such thing as a sign gift. Signs are against those who believe not the word of God as the one and only source of Christian faith.... the rebels, prophecy for those who believe.
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Kelby, I agree with you, to have the Holy Spirit means not to do ore see all times the right. This is only then when we follow Him.
And when we obey Him.
What I meant to say is that the Holy Spirit is not teaching something against the Scripture. And if you have the Holy Spirit you can know this. Otherwise how we could know what is right ore wrong? F.e. many Christians believe the calvinism teaching and many follow the arminian teaching. They are very opposit to one each other. But non of both are 100% right. So it must be a middleway. The reply of one is asked, as the knowing that one is selectet.
Both are bornagain christians.
But they anyhow can not see the truth fully.
Thanks for correcting.
Greetings
Wolfgang
And when we obey Him.
What I meant to say is that the Holy Spirit is not teaching something against the Scripture. And if you have the Holy Spirit you can know this. Otherwise how we could know what is right ore wrong? F.e. many Christians believe the calvinism teaching and many follow the arminian teaching. They are very opposit to one each other. But non of both are 100% right. So it must be a middleway. The reply of one is asked, as the knowing that one is selectet.
Both are bornagain christians.
But they anyhow can not see the truth fully.
Thanks for correcting.
Greetings
Wolfgang
Garee,
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Please notice he said "prophesy" ...with an "S" and long "I" sound at the end...not "prophecy" with a "C". Seeing how we are to covet the best gifts...and are specifically commanded to covet to prophesy (which is the action, not the words already said)...Do you covet to prophesy as commanded? or do you shun away from it as if to prophesy is evil?
With love in Jesus,
Kelby
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Please notice he said "prophesy" ...with an "S" and long "I" sound at the end...not "prophecy" with a "C". Seeing how we are to covet the best gifts...and are specifically commanded to covet to prophesy (which is the action, not the words already said)...Do you covet to prophesy as commanded? or do you shun away from it as if to prophesy is evil?
With love in Jesus,
Kelby
Thanks
I agree to prophesy is to declare God’s existing will asthe same spirit of faith, according as it is written, as prophecy. And forbid not those who speak anotherlanguage, as prophecy.
We declare his living will planting the seed , he causesgrowth if there is any .We preach Christ the Preacher not our own selves ,the beautifulfeet that bring prophesy He has the beautiful, wonderful words.
I agree to prophesy is to declare God’s existing will asthe same spirit of faith, according as it is written, as prophecy. And forbid not those who speak anotherlanguage, as prophecy.
We declare his living will planting the seed , he causesgrowth if there is any .We preach Christ the Preacher not our own selves ,the beautifulfeet that bring prophesy He has the beautiful, wonderful words.
I have never even heard of people being asked to not speak in tongues. The real question is what is being claimed as "tongues" the same as what was being done in the 1st century.
Truly speaking in tongues is a physical supernatural manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Simply claiming to be speaking in tongues is not.
Truly speaking in tongues is a physical supernatural manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Simply claiming to be speaking in tongues is not.