Are Mormon claims of the miraculous as valid as others?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#41
May 23, 2012
12,349
4,063
113
#41
DJ2 said:
Come on man. Of course there's a horse. That's the whole point of the OP.

Horse = Claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

Cart = Theology of the group making the claims.

I don't know what to make of this.
Click to expand...
so the Acts 2:5-11 account is a claim?

The life of the person saved is the witness claims are not confessions

Confess: admit or state that one has committed something

Claim: assert that something is still says to be proved

the two Biblically are not the same . I do not claim to be saved . But I have confessed that I am a sinner and have asked Jesus to save me and be my Lord.

: "I don't know what to make of this."


How about this : out of the abundance of the Heart the mouth speaks.


rom 10:9-10 = CONFESS



1JOHN 1:6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.
If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.



 
DJ2

DJ2

Senior Member
#42
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#42
CS1 said:
so the Acts 2:5-11 account is a claim?

The life of the person saved is the witness claims are not confessions

Confess: admit or state that one has committed something

Claim: assert that something is still says to be proved

the two Biblically are not the same . I do not claim to be saved . But I have confessed that I am a sinner and have asked Jesus to save me and be my Lord.

: "I don't know what to make of this."


How about this : out of the abundance of the Heart the mouth speaks.


rom 10:9-10 = CONFESS



1JOHN 1:6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.
If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.
Click to expand...
so the Acts 2:5-11 account is a claim? ​
Click to expand...
No. It's part of the word of God. Are you suggesting that your claim of doing the same as in Acts 2:5-11 should be accepted in the same way?

There is no confession without a claim. If the claim is false, the confession is false.

How about this: Too much talk leads to sin. Be sensible and keep your mouth shut. Proverbs 10:19

 
J

jb

Senior Member
#43
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
589
113
#43
DJ2 said:
Since there is no prima facie evidence why assume the claims are even truly supernatural. Is it not possible that the claim are simply bogus?
Click to expand...
Get real!!!!!!!
 
Didymous

Didymous

Senior Member
#44
Feb 22, 2018
5,047
2,099
113
#44
Apparently this thread is turning into a speaking in tongues thread. Do Mormons speak in tongues?
 
BenFTW

BenFTW

Senior Member
#46
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
113
33
#46
DJ2 said:
Yes they do.
Click to expand...
Its almost as if you're coming at this from an atheistic worldview. What I mean by that is that a secular person would look at all healing claims the same, no matter the religion. Where as a Christian knows God heals, and can use discernment as to where such signs and wonders point. So even if a cult or religion experiences supernatural phenomena (counterfeits), we know it is to lead people away from Christ, and to another gospel.

Just because other religions may experience similar supernatural phenomena doesn't illegitimate the Christian experience. How sly is it to make a counterfeit of the real, to get people looking elsewhere for the truth instead of from God? Prophecy, for example, is of God but what do you make of fortune tellers, tarot card readers, palm readers, and so on? A counterfeit doesn't eliminate the real, it only muddies the water.
 
Katy-follower

Katy-follower

Senior Member
#47
Jun 25, 2011
2,719
155
63
#47
For some reason I first thought of all those reportings of Mary statues crying blood. To me, just more lying signs and wonders from satan, as his way to keep people in bondage to a religion that teaches a different gospel. Because.... unfortunately people go by sight and not by faith. The Mary apparitions are another one.

Paul said not to go by appearances, but rather what does the person preach. Whenever the bible repeats something often, it's there for emphasis. God wants us to take note.

Galatians 1:8-9: "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed"



mystery_as_statue_of_virgin_ma.jpg
 
K

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
#48
Oct 8, 2017
1,881
717
113
#48
Wow... in a good way. :)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#50
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#50
The Mormom Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible.....same is true of JWs......
 
K

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
#52
Oct 8, 2017
1,881
717
113
#52
DJ2 said:
Are we to judge the validity of claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit by which group does the claiming? Many dismiss Mormon claims of raising the dead, healing the sick, giving sight to the blind and speaking in tongues as fraudulent, while giving a pass to the claims of more accepted groups. It seems that any group claiming such abilities should be held to the same level of scrutiny.

Simply put, are all claims the same?
Click to expand...
Personally, I like the way Jesus answered a similar situation when it was brought to his attention in the gospels of Mark and Luke.

Luke 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
Luke 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Mark 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.


He didn't question whether it was real or fake...or if the person doing it was real or fake... He just stated some truths about people who learn how to get miracles to happen.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 
K

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
#53
Oct 8, 2017
1,881
717
113
#53
Johnny_B said:
​Yes they should all be held to the same standard, as far as I am concerned they all need to bring the paperword to prove it. I was part of a movement that claim limbs growing and the dead being raised in China. So I asked to see the video or paperwork and was marked as a rebel.
Click to expand...
Why does there seem to be such a widespread demand for proof of some miracle (whether real or false)?

Did Jesus ever try to "prove" his miracles? Not that I see in the bible. If someone saw it, good for them. If they disbelieved it..he didn't bother trying to convince them it was real.

And did Jesus ever feel obligated to produce a miracle(or proof of one) on demand or upon request of someone who disbelieved? Not that I see in the bible.

And, (on the other side of the coin) Jesus didn't go around broadcasting that he'd performed one. For example, in John 6, when they said "What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.” notice that in Jesus’ reply he didn't even mention that he’d JUST fed them in the wilderness at the beginning of the chapter. :)


NOTE: I included the scripture reference in hopes that people will actually go read the chapter. :)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 
Last edited:
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#54
Apr 7, 2014
25,045
13,052
113
58
#54
dcontroversal said:
The Mormom Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible.....same is true of JWs......
Click to expand...
Amen! Jesus is not a spirit brother of Lucifer who had to work His way up to Godhood and He is also not Michael the Archangel. JESUS IS GOD. (John 1:1,14). Both Mormons and JW's have a different Jesus, different spirit, different gospel (2 Corinthians 11:4).
 
DJ2

DJ2

Senior Member
#55
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#55
I am rather surprised by how many are missing the point of the OP. The question is not if the theology of the Mormon church is correct but are their claims of physical supernatural manifestations based on real events or simply fraud. Mormons, like most Pentecostal groups today proclaim that the age of the miraculous is still upon us. If true this would be a prima facie issue.

The point is simple, should the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of either group not be subject to the normal acceptance of reason and logic. Does one group get a pass and the other dismissed as a fraud simply because we do not accept their theology. Since when does prima facie go out the window simply because of our theology.

Being a Christian does not mean we have to check our brains at the door.
 
DJ2

DJ2

Senior Member
#56
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#56
jb said:
Get real!!!!!!!
Click to expand...
Seven exclamation marks. You sure proved your point. Thanks for your insight. There is much for me to ponder.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#57
May 23, 2012
12,349
4,063
113
#57
DJ2 said:
I am rather surprised by how many are missing the point of the OP. The question is not if the theology of the Mormon church is correct but are their claims of physical supernatural manifestations based on real events or simply fraud. Mormons, like most Pentecostal groups today proclaim that the age of the miraculous is still upon us. If true this would be a prima facie issue.

The point is simple, should the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of either group not be subject to the normal acceptance of reason and logic. Does one group get a pass and the other dismissed as a fraud simply because we do not accept their theology. Since when does prima facie go out the window simply because of our theology.

Being a Christian does not mean we have to check our brains at the door.
Click to expand...
are we not to answer Biblically ? And from a Christian world view ? Is human logic and the human Mind able to understand spirual things ? The Bible clearly tell us no. Also the context has to be defined as to who is asking the question i.e. athiest, unsaved etc... ; the question is not simple in answering under what one calls "normal acceptance". The world does not, and will not have understanding of the things of God. Rom 8:5-8


[FONT=&quot]5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.[/FONT]
 
G

garee

Banned
#58
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#58
Are we to judge the validity of claims ofphysical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit by which group does theclaiming? Many dismiss Mormon claims of raising the dead, healing the sick,giving sight to the blind and speaking in tongues as fraudulent, while giving apass to the claims of more accepted groups. It seems that any group claimingsuch abilities should be held to the same level of scrutiny.

Simply put, are all claims the same?
Click to expand...
That entireclaim they are receiving new revelations as signs as some kind of evidence theyhave the Holy Spirit. Signs are for those who rebel against the word of God. (Prophesy) The hearing of prophecy, or called the hearing of faith for those who dobelieve as an anchor to their new souls. No outward sign. Just blessed inwardly.


The onetime use of parables using raising the dead, healing the sick, giving sight tothe blind came to an end. God is no longer using those kinds of metaphors to speak of the power ofthe gospel (unseen)
[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#59
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#59
DJ2 said:
I am rather surprised by how many are missing the point of the OP. The question is not if the theology of the Mormon church is correct but are their claims of physical supernatural manifestations based on real events or simply fraud. Mormons, like most Pentecostal groups today proclaim that the age of the miraculous is still upon us. If true this would be a prima facie issue.

The point is simple, should the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of either group not be subject to the normal acceptance of reason and logic. Does one group get a pass and the other dismissed as a fraud simply because we do not accept their theology. Since when does prima facie go out the window simply because of our theology.

Being a Christian does not mean we have to check our brains at the door.
Click to expand...
If the root is corrupt, so is the source....Jesus, Elijah, the Apostles all healed, raised the dead etc. by the power of God dia the Holy Spirit of God......my point was simple enough....No Jesus or a corrupt Jesus = no power from God.........so, by deductive reasoning, their claim to fame is false!
 
DJ2

DJ2

Senior Member
#60
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#60
Before we judge claims of the physical supernatural being from God or Satan, it must first be assessed to be of supernatural origin. Since acts of the supernatural are self-evident and when no evidence is presented there is little need to label them as Satanic. They are simply frauds.

This song and dance about these events occurring within the Mormon Church being real but of Satan is nothing more than cover for the fraudulent claims of the Pentecostal movement.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.