are there any universalists here?????

[Grace777x70]

I believe the scriptures are very clear. Everyone is included in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection but people need to receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness that is only in Christ to receive the forgiveness of sins. The sin issue has been dealt with in Christ's finished work on the cross.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Here is Peter preaching this gospel message of Christ's finished work to Gentiles.

Acts 10:43 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
Here is Paul preaching the exact same message to the Jews. The Jews being religious needed to know how this related to the Law of Moses.

Acts 13:38-39 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

[SUP]39 [/SUP] and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.


So, what is our ministry now to the world in light of what God has done in Christ?

2 Corinthians 5:18-20 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

[SUP]19 [/SUP] namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

[SUP]20 [/SUP] Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Believe the message of Christ's work on the cross and reconciled yourself to what God says - He has reconciled you to Himself through Christ.

Believe and receive it so that you may live. Then we move on to believe and know the love that God has for us and we grow in Christ because we have died and our life is hidden with Christ in God. Col. 3:3

 

[Magenta]

Does the Scripture say:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him shall not be tortured and tormented
in a fiery burning hell forever after, but have eternal life?

NO! Rather, Scripture plainly states

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that
whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Perish = word 622 in Strong's Concordance.

Strong's Concordance

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly

Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing
Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing
(the resultant death being viewed as certain).

HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

 

[slave]

What was the consequence decreed to Adam for the possibility of his disobedience?

The phrase “you shall surely die” can be literally translated from the Hebrew biblical text as “dying you shall die.” In the Hebrew phrase we find the imperfect form of the Hebrew verb (you shall die) with the infinitive absolute form of the same verb (dying). This presence of the infinitive absolute intensifies the meaning of the imperfect verb (hence the usual translation of “you shall surely die”). This grammatical construction is quite common in the Old Testament, not just with this verb but others also, and does indicate (or intensify) the certainty of the action.

 

[Willie-T]

If he broke the covenant that would have given him eternal life, him and his posterity would fall into the consequences of breaking that covenant, which was damnation. Christ came to fulfill another covenant that will ensure his people to eternal life, and his terms were to live under the law and die for the sin of the world. Since Christ has obeyed his covenant, the fallen posterity of Adam in his covenant may by grace be partakers with Christ and his blessings by faith in him. All in Adam die, all in Christ will be made alive.

That all sounds great if you are endeavoring to devise a doctrine.

But, if you read only what we are told in the Bible, he is simply told he will surely die. Beyond that, everything we have added to those four words spoken by God, is pure speculation. Ideas and concepts drawn from something other than what was said to Adam.

We are not even told what "die" meant to Adam. He had never seen a human "die". If he ever did see any animals "die", I seriously doubt he saw any non-stop suffering after they stopped breathing.

I know it is tough and frustrating to keep what we want to claim as "facts" limited to only what is written there for us to read. But, that is what we are required to do.

 

[PrynceNY]

that seems to be the plain teaching of the new testament!!!!!!!!!! but i have a few questions for you:: why is hell so overlooked in the torah of moses and old testament?????????? such an important thing should be mentioned on every page!!!!!!!! especially to adam and eve after the fall, first thing that should be mentioned but why is it not?????????? and one last thing what about the majority of the world who has never heard of jesus like all the millions of africans asians and americans who died while paul was preaching in roman empire only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!? i hope someone can answer those it would help persuade me to the so called traditional position....................

Just to add the scriptures also mentions in Isaiah 5:14 - Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. Back during the old testament times there was a place called sheol where the dead would go. As stated in story of the rich man and lazarus, lazurus was in paradise with abraham and the rich man opened his eyes in eternal torment.

 

[BenFTW]

Universalism also negates the very thing that pleases God. Faith. If its impossible to please God without faith, how then does universalism even come up as something (sourced) from God? It would be contradictory by nature. People wish all were saved, but guess what? So does God. People think that the Lord will save all humanity. He has, but only for those that would believe. Jesus died for all the world, and in so doing, salvation is available to all. Yet, universalism tries to say that Jesus will save all when scripture is clear that some trample underfoot the Son of God.

[h=1]Hebrews 10:26-31 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.[/FONT]

 

[Magenta]

Hell is used in place of four different words, maybe five: Hades, Gehenna, Sheol, Tartaros.

THE word "hell" occurs in our common version 54 times,
31 in the Old Testament and 23 in the New. It is a
translation of 4 different words in the original, one (Sheol)
in the Old, and three (Hades, Gehenna, Tartaros) in the New.

The last, Tartaros, occurs but once (2 Pet. 2:4).
It has nothing to do wth humans, but fallen angels.

Gehenna appears 12 times, it is always translated "hell,"
and it is always connected with burning and corruption.

Sheol and Hades, the other two, are synonymous terms, as
will be demonstrated, and altogether occur 76 times. 41
times they are translated hell, 32 times grave, and 3 times pit.

While Sheol, Hades and Tartaros refer to the same place
or state, Gehenna is entirely different in meaning.

 

[Base12]

I want some of what base12 is smokin'

Remember to do what God tells us.

Seek ye first the Kingdom of God within.

Human Anatomy.

Hell is a parable for the Womb.

It's God's version of the Easter Bunny or Santa I suppose because Christians are too squeamish to be told the hard core Truth.

Bunch of snowflakes in here I swear.

Because of this, many turn away from Christianity and go into Esoterism and Gnosticism because the Occultists aren't afraid to talk about these things.

Unfortunately, the Occultists spin the Truth of Hell into Alchemy and Phoenix symbolism...

Do any of you understand what is being shown in that image?

It's literally Old Testament verses put into art.

See the sides of the Pit?

See Lucifer being thrust through with a Sword?

See the Lake of Fire?

It's a picture of the Womb... and it's Biblical.

Look you guys...

People are in need of serious Truth right now. If you can't provide that, then at least don't mock the ones attempting to bring it.

I back up everything I say with verses.

I want to make a thread on this but the snowflakes around here can't seem to handle deep intelligent discussions based on Science and Fact.

But whatever... maybe I will and get banned.

I honestly don't care at this point.

 

[Spokenpassage]

If God is of infinite worth, Magenta, how is the consequence not infinite? We are talking about having committed cosmic treason against God, the Lord, not some human or animal. Our view of his holiness must be higher than our comprehension. Jesus was the only person who could drink the cup of his wrath in full while surviving it.

How do you deal with passages that speak of the fire that won't be quenched and the worm that will never die? Or with Jesus saying that some will be raised to eternal life and others to eternal punishment?

 

[Magenta]

SHEOL is a term for the place of the dead in general, and for this reason "hell" in its original and uncorrupted meaning is a better word for sheol than "grave" is.

"Grave" primarily means the specific place of a particular corpse or corpses. The Hebrew for this is geber, as --

• "My grave (geber) which I digged for me" (Gen. 50:5).
  "The king wept at the grave (geber) of Abner" (2 Sam. 3:32).

On the other hand, sheol in the Hebrew and "hell" in its primary meaning are general terms as (Psa. 6:5) --

• "In the grave (sheol) who shall give Thee thanks?"
  "Hell (sheol) and destruction are never full" (Prov. 27:20).

However, while "grave" used as a general term will well fit all passages where sheol occurs, "hell" in the popular sense would be absurd in some places and would immediately reveal the popular error. For example, where Jacob says (Gen. 37:35) --

• "I will go down into sheol unto my son mourning."

And where Job says (14:13) --

• "O that Thou wouldest hide me in Sheol."

It is not to be supposed that either Jacob or Job anticipated or hoped to go to eternal torment.

In all the 65 places where Sheol is found, there is not one that gives any countenance to the idea of a place of burning torment of the damned. It is always in the sense of the general hidden state of the dead -- all the dead -- good and bad alike.

And not only is Sheol used as the resting place of all the dead indiscriminately, but we have specific mention of righteousness and approved men going there and expecting to go there.

We have seen this of Jacob and Job. Also David (Psa. 88:3), Hezekiah (Isa. 38:10), Christ (Psa. 16:10; Acts 2:31; 3:15), and all the faithful (compare Hos. 13:14 with 1 Cor. 15:54-56).

Sheol is a place of silence --

• "Let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in Sheol" (Psa. 31:17).
  
  "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence" (Psa. 115:17).

There is no remembrance there (Psa. 6:5) --

• "In death there is no remembrance of Thee, in Sheol who shall give Thee thanks?"

Sheol is "in the dust" and there we "rest together" "in darkness" (Job 17:13-16). Beauty is consumed there (Psa. 49:14). There is no work or knowledge there --

• "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol whither thou goest" (Ecc. 9:10).

It is dark there, and is called the "land of forgetfulness," and "destruction" --

• "Wilt Thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise Thee?"
  
  "Shall Thy loving kindness be declared in Sheol? Or Thy faithfulness in destruction?"
  
  "Shall Thy wonders be known in the dark? And Thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?" (Psa. 88:10-12).​

The "mighty" are spoken of as lying there with "their swords under their heads" (Eze. 32:27). This is a clear reference to the ancient custom of burying warriors in their graves with their weapons of war, but quite at variance with the traditional hell of torment.

 

[Locutus]

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

If Paul died when the commandment came and continued on to write about it then it can be inferred that physical death is not the penalty for sin.

Yes?

 

[Magenta]

If God is of infinite worth, Magenta, how is the consequence not infinite? We are talking about having committed cosmic treason against God, the Lord, not some human or animal. Our view of his holiness must be higher than our comprehension. Jesus was the only person who could drink the cup of his wrath in full while surviving it.

How do you deal with passages that speak of the fire that won't be quenched and the worm that will never die? Or with Jesus saying that some will be raised to eternal life and others to eternal punishment?

I wonder at those who refuse to accept death as punishment against the plain teaching of Scripture. The second death lasts forever after. There is no coming back from that. Call it infinite if you like. Eternal life is found only in Christ. The wages of sin is consistently taught throughout the whole of Scripture as being death.

 

[Spokenpassage]

That all sounds great if you are endeavoring to devise a doctrine.

But, if you read only what we are told in the Bible, he is simply told he will surely die. Beyond that, everything we have added to those four words spoken by God, is pure speculation. Ideas and concepts drawn from something other than what was said to Adam.

We are not even told what "die" meant to Adam. He had never seen a human "die". If he ever did see any animals "die", I seriously doubt he saw any non-stop suffering after they stopped breathing.

I know it is tough and frustrating to keep what we want to claim as "facts" limited to only what is written there for us to read. But, that is what we are required to do.

That's why you read Scripture to understand other passages better. I don't read Genesis and stop there, but I compare them with passages that speak clearly on the issue which is majority found in the New Testament. There is a significance in the apostle's usage of Adam to Christ.

Besides, promising life if he obeyed sounds like a law of a covenant. God told Israel, do this and you will be blessed. Same kind of a covenant. Do this and you will be blessed.

 

[Locutus]

I back up everything I say with verses.

Yes, but you try and spin the figurative into literal.

 

[PrynceNY]

How do you deal with passages that speak of the fire that won't be quenched and the worm that will never die? Or with Jesus saying that some will be raised to eternal life and others to eternal punishment?

There are also other passages such as 'They will have no rest day or night" So contrary to what some may try to tell you there is no temporal punishment

 

[Magenta]

What we are told elsewhere concerning the state of the dead fully harmonizes with what we learn about Sheol. Death is always associated with oblivion, corruption, dissolution, returning to the dust, passing away as a shadow, the end of thought, knowledge, activity or memory.

Consider what Job says of the state of the dead and see how IMPOSSIBLE it is to harmonize with it the tradition of reward or punishment at death --

"But man dieth and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost (gava -- expires), and where is he?

As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: so man lieth down and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their SLEEP" (Job 14:10-15).

Where is heavenly bliss or torment? He continues --

• "O that Thou wouldest hide me in Sheol, that Thou wouldest keep me secret, until Thy wrath be passed, that Thou wouldest appoint me a set time and remember me!"

In his affliction, he looked forward to the unconscious, peaceful rest in Sheol until the day of resurrection and judgment. He had no illusions about Sheol or hell being a place of fiery torment. He knew that there the wicked cease from troubling and the weary are at rest, they lie still and are quiet together, for he says (Job 3:11-19) --

• "Why died I not from the womb? why did I not expire (gava) when I came out of the belly? Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
• 
  "For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest, with kings and counselors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves: or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:
• 
  "Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been: as infants which never saw light.
  
• "There the wicked cease from troubling and there the weary be at rest.
• There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
• The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master."

Such is the great silent congregation of the dead, all together in one sleeping host: kings, counselors, princes, still-born infants, the wicked, the weary, the prisoners, the small, the great, the servant and master. And of them all the preacher says (Eccl. 9:5) --

• "The living know that they shall die, but THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING."
  "In death there is no remembrance of Thee (Psa. 6:5).
  "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence" (Psa. 115:17).

 

[Muzungu256]

Please check out post #43 on this page

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/149485-death-not-death-3.html

i believe God loves His children and is our father so all will be reconciled finally and saved so i dont believe in annihilationism, but atleast its better than the eternal conciscous torment theory.
God bless you and keep you sister!!

 

[Spokenpassage]

I wonder at those who refuse to accept death as punishment against the plain teaching of Scripture. The second death lasts forever after. There is no coming back from that. Call it infinite if you like. Eternal life is found only in Christ. The wages of sin is consistently taught throughout the whole of Scripture as being death.

Second death doesn't mean departing from the body, since Scripture is clear that the wicked will be raised from the dead. If eternal life is enjoying the fullness of spiritual life we enjoy in part here, then eternal death must refer to the misery that is experienced in part in this life. Hell is not the place you want to attend, even for a moment. Suicide doesn't escape the problem, it chases for the greater problem.

 

[dcontroversal]

Just saying and I know I am controversial so....

Some views don't seem so bad when it comes to death and no place of eternal suffering....heck.....LIVE free, do what you want, partake of every pleasure under the sun, try it all and maybe even twice if you like it and then die, go to sleep and not know anything after that....

GOD is the GOD of extreme...IMV.....IF he eternally REWARDS the saved, how can he ETERNALLY PUNISH those who die enemies of the cross if their is no place of eternal torment/punishment....but rather endless sleep where one knows nothing....?

JUST a question based upon the obvious conclusion of what some believe

WHY does JESUS command the people to FEAR the one who can kill and cast into hell? Is it not misleading and deceptive to warn of an imaginary place that does not exist?

 

[slave]

The Word also talks about how we must live...Thus, to not need to know this in the universalists movement eliminates a large portion of Scripture God saw fit to include:

* So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. (Galatians)

* For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." (Romans 8:13).