are there any universalists here?????
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As to any part of man continuing in consciousness after
death, the Scriptures rule out any such theory.
All the terms that are used in Hebrew to define the element of life or spirit
or breath in man are similarly employed with respect to animals --
Nephesh -- "soul, life, body, or person" ;
Chayiah -- life abstractly considered" ;
Nephesh chayiah -- "living soul or creatures" ;
Ruach -- "breath or spirit" ; and
Neshamah -- "breath."
All these terms are applied to animals just as to man. And of both the preacher says (Eccl. 3:19) --
Death is darkness, silence, forgetfulness, corruption, dissolution, smoke, ashes, dust, oblivion --
Again Paul, when comforting the Thessalonians concerning those who had died, does not say that they are in heaven in bliss and full consciousness as all the clergy tell us, and that the living will go soon to join them there.
He never mentions anything like this, strangely enough, but he says, on the very CONTRARY (1 Thess. 4:13-18), that the dead in Christ are ASLEEP, and that at the coming of Christ they will arise from that condition to join the living in his presence.
And many times we find Jesus, Paul, and others in Scripture, speaking of the dead as being asleep, and not only just asleep, but "asleep in the dust of the earth" (Dan. 12:2). How can this possibly be if they are wide awake in heaven or even wider awake in hell?
death, the Scriptures rule out any such theory.
All the terms that are used in Hebrew to define the element of life or spirit
or breath in man are similarly employed with respect to animals --
Nephesh -- "soul, life, body, or person" ;
Chayiah -- life abstractly considered" ;
Nephesh chayiah -- "living soul or creatures" ;
Ruach -- "breath or spirit" ; and
Neshamah -- "breath."
All these terms are applied to animals just as to man. And of both the preacher says (Eccl. 3:19) --
- "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts . . . as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath (ruach)."
Death is darkness, silence, forgetfulness, corruption, dissolution, smoke, ashes, dust, oblivion --
- "All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again."
- "Man goeth to his long home, the mourners go about the streets . . . then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (ruach -- breath) shall return unto God Who gave it" (Eccl. 12:5-7).
"His breath (same word -- ruach) goeth forth, he returneth to his earth: in that very day his thoughts perish" (Psa. 146:4).
"Thou takest away their breath (ruach) they (the animals -- see context) die, and return to their dust" (Psa. 104:29).
Again Paul, when comforting the Thessalonians concerning those who had died, does not say that they are in heaven in bliss and full consciousness as all the clergy tell us, and that the living will go soon to join them there.
He never mentions anything like this, strangely enough, but he says, on the very CONTRARY (1 Thess. 4:13-18), that the dead in Christ are ASLEEP, and that at the coming of Christ they will arise from that condition to join the living in his presence.
And many times we find Jesus, Paul, and others in Scripture, speaking of the dead as being asleep, and not only just asleep, but "asleep in the dust of the earth" (Dan. 12:2). How can this possibly be if they are wide awake in heaven or even wider awake in hell?
Hi Muzungu,
God has made things clear to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.
Here's a few scriptures I found - I’m sure there are many others that cover this particular topic. Especially probably in the prophets.Psalm 9:7,8;17-20But the Lord abides forever;He has established His throne for judgment,And He will judge the world in righteousness;He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity.The wicked will return to Sheol,Even all the nations who forget God.For the needy will not always be forgotten,Nor the hope of the afflicted perish forever.Arise, O Lord, do not let man prevail;Let the nations be judged before You.Put them in fear, O Lord;Let the nations know that they are but men.Selah.
Psalm 49:14-20As sheep they are appointed for Sheol;Death shall be their shepherd;And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,And their form shall be for Sheol to consumeSo that they have no habitation.But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol,For He will receive me.Selah.Do not be afraid when a man becomes rich,When the glory of his house is increased;For when he dies he will carry nothing away;His glory will not descend after him.Though while he lives he congratulates himself—And though men praise you when you do well for yourself—He shall go to the generation of his fathers;They will never see the light.Man in his pomp, yet without understanding,Is like the beasts that perish.Jude says Enoch prophesied of the coming judgement.
Jude 1:14,15It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
Daniel 9:1-12“I kept lookingUntil thrones were set up,And the Ancient of Days took His seat;His vesture was like white snowAnd the hair of His head like pure wool.His throne was ablaze with flames,Its wheels were a burning fire.“A river of fire was flowingAnd coming out from before Him;Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;The court sat,And the books were opened.Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.
That fact was even shown in the Garden of Eden. Before sin, life seems to keep on going. After sin, there comes an appointed time for every man to physically die, but it is not an immediate occurrence. After sin entered the world, man undergoes physical death. But in one case, there is no reversal of the condition, and in the other case, resurrection has been offered.
None of that indicates exactly what continuing without resurrection really means.
None of that indicates exactly what continuing without resurrection really means.
If they do not value life, why would they want to live? Atheists make fun of eternal life at any rate. Try as you might to intellectually coax anyone into the Kingdom of God, it takes the conviction of the Holy Spirit of God to move anyone to belief. With God all things are possible
S
If they do not value life, why would they want to live? Atheists make fun of eternal life at any rate. Try as you might to intellectually coax anyone into the Kingdom of God, it takes the conviction of the Holy Spirit of God to move anyone to belief. With God all things are possible
Showing my problem, my own consequences, and then bringing me directly into the mercy of God on the cross converted me. I didn't need to hear arguments about evolution or whatnot.
People take one parable and a couple of verses from the highly metaphorical and symbolic book of Rev and present them as if they nullify a multitude of Scriptures that plainly teach that the wages of sin is death right from Genesis onward. Maybe most people really do need to be brought to a place of terror before God before they can love Him and accept His absolute justice, mercy, and grace.
DEATH, NOT TORTURE, IS THE PUNISHMENT OF SIN
Such is death, and the Scriptures declare repeatedly that it is death that is the great penalty for sin. Right from the beginning, death is the sentence, and the wording of that sentence as originally given shows clearly what is meant. God said to Adam as a consequence of his disobedience (Gen. 2:17) -- "Thou shalt surely DIE."
There was no threatened eternal torment, but on the contrary Adam was told (Gen. 3:19) -
THE WICKED DESTROYED, NOT TORTURED
Death, we have seen, is oblivion and destruction, and death is the wages of sin. The term "DESTROY" is often used of the fate of the wicked. After the "few or many stripes" of chastisement, the end of all is destruction.
The popular conception leaves no room for few or many stripes, for it sweepingly gives all the full maximum penalty possible, eternal agony in hell, millions and millions and millions and millions of years for the sins of so brief a lifetime, and this for the overwhelming majority of mankind, for Jesus says (Matt. 7:13) --
In Matt. 25:46, Jesus says the wicked "go into everlasting punishment," and what this everlasting punishment consists of is explained by Paul (2 Thess. 1:7-9) where he says that when Jesus shall be revealed from heaven, the wicked shall be "punished with everlasting destruction." Again (Heb. 10:27) --
It will have been noted from many of the foregoing quotations that the judgment and punishment of the wicked is connected with a special day IN THE FUTURE, when Christ will return from heaven.
This is important, for it clearly demonstrates the error of the conception of immediate reward or punishment at death. In Matt. 16:27, Jesus says --
One of the biggest inconsistencies of the popular belief is that fact that resurrection and judgment at the last day must be either flatly denied, or else it comes after centuries of bliss in heaven or torture in hell.
Where is the necessity or reason for either resurrection or judgment at the return of Christ if the dead go to their reward at death? It would not only be unnecessary -- it would be plain absurdity!
RESURRECTION
Scriptures say there will be a resurrection, and that it is necessary. We find the day of judgment always associated with resurrection of the dead, and we find resurrection from the grave held out as the only hope of life after death.
Paul devoted 1st Cor. 15 to refuting the contention that there will be no resurrection. He says (vs. 16-18) --
DEATH, NOT TORTURE, IS THE PUNISHMENT OF SIN
Such is death, and the Scriptures declare repeatedly that it is death that is the great penalty for sin. Right from the beginning, death is the sentence, and the wording of that sentence as originally given shows clearly what is meant. God said to Adam as a consequence of his disobedience (Gen. 2:17) -- "Thou shalt surely DIE."
There was no threatened eternal torment, but on the contrary Adam was told (Gen. 3:19) -
- "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou RETURN UNTO THE GROUND: for out of it wast thou taken: for DUST THOU ART AND UNTO DUST SHALT THOU RETURN."
- "The wages of sin is death."
"By one man’s offence death reigned" (Rom 5:17)
- "The end of those things (the works of the flesh) is death."
- "Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth DEATH" (James 1:15).
THE WICKED DESTROYED, NOT TORTURED
Death, we have seen, is oblivion and destruction, and death is the wages of sin. The term "DESTROY" is often used of the fate of the wicked. After the "few or many stripes" of chastisement, the end of all is destruction.
The popular conception leaves no room for few or many stripes, for it sweepingly gives all the full maximum penalty possible, eternal agony in hell, millions and millions and millions and millions of years for the sins of so brief a lifetime, and this for the overwhelming majority of mankind, for Jesus says (Matt. 7:13) --
- "Broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat.
"And narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it."
In Matt. 25:46, Jesus says the wicked "go into everlasting punishment," and what this everlasting punishment consists of is explained by Paul (2 Thess. 1:7-9) where he says that when Jesus shall be revealed from heaven, the wicked shall be "punished with everlasting destruction." Again (Heb. 10:27) --
- "Judgment and fiery indignation shall devour the adversary."
- "DESTROY both soul and body in Gehenna."
- "Their end is destruction."
- "These, as natural brute beasts . . . shall utterly perish in their own corruption."
- "The wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."
- "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."
- "The Lord preserveth all them that love Him, but all the wicked will He destroy."
It will have been noted from many of the foregoing quotations that the judgment and punishment of the wicked is connected with a special day IN THE FUTURE, when Christ will return from heaven.
This is important, for it clearly demonstrates the error of the conception of immediate reward or punishment at death. In Matt. 16:27, Jesus says --
- "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father, with his angels, THEN shall he reward every man according to his works."
- "The Father hath given him (Jesus) authority to execute judgment . . . for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of condemnation."
- "He SHALL judge the quick and the dead AT HIS APPEARING and his kingdom."
- "Judge nothing before the time, UNTIL THE LORD COME, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and THEN shall every man have praise of God."
- "Day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."
- "God hath appointed a day in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained."
- "For, behold, the day COMETH, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
- The wicked . . . shall be ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous IN THE DAY that I shall do this, saith the Lord."
One of the biggest inconsistencies of the popular belief is that fact that resurrection and judgment at the last day must be either flatly denied, or else it comes after centuries of bliss in heaven or torture in hell.
Where is the necessity or reason for either resurrection or judgment at the return of Christ if the dead go to their reward at death? It would not only be unnecessary -- it would be plain absurdity!
RESURRECTION
Scriptures say there will be a resurrection, and that it is necessary. We find the day of judgment always associated with resurrection of the dead, and we find resurrection from the grave held out as the only hope of life after death.
Paul devoted 1st Cor. 15 to refuting the contention that there will be no resurrection. He says (vs. 16-18) --
- "If the dead rise not . . . then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."
- "What advantageth it me, if the dead rise not?"
- "I count all things but loss . . . I have suffered the loss of all things . . . if by any means I might attain unto the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD."
- "Raise up at the last day."
- "Shall be recompensed AT THE RESURRECTION OF THE JUST."
TWO PLACES APPEAR TO TEACH TORMENT
There are only two places in all the Bible which could be considered to give it the slightest shadow of support, and both of these upon examination demonstrate the utter baselessness of the belief.
It is almost unbelievable that on the basis of such meager and twisted evidence, orthodox priestcraft should build such a repulsive and repugnant doctrine, in the face of the whole teaching and tenor of Scripture.
One would consider that men would be extremely reluctant to believe such things even on strong evidence, instead of eagerly snatching at isolated straws to support them in the very face of such strong evidence. Unfortunately, the men who translated the Scriptures into our tongue were steeped in this error and have colored their translation with it, as we have seen.
No honest and careful study of all the appearances of the words Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna, and of the teachings of Scripture on the nature of man and the destiny of the wicked, could possibly produce the lurid nightmare that is the orthodox conception of eternal torments amid the fiery demons of hell.
THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
First, we ask, is this parable to be taken literally and all the other plain teaching of Scripture rejected upon the strength of it? We must face this issue squarely and choose. The Scriptures say the dead are asleep in the dust of the earth, they know nothing, they will come forth to resurrection and judgment at the last day. We have seen that this is the consistent teaching of the Bible throughout.
Now we must either flatly reject ALL this testimony, or we must regard this story for what it truly and obviously is, a parable worded according to the false doctrines of the very class Jesus was addressing -- the Pharisees.
As is apparent from the contemporary Jewish historian Josephus, this account of Abraham’s bosom, the great gulf, the tormenting flame, was part of the pharisaical tradition by which they made void the Word of God (Mark 7:13), and Jesus was merely confounding them with their own errors and "answering a fool according to his folly" (Prov. 26:5) and "taking the wise in their own craftiness" (1 Cor. 3:19).
Compare his treatment of a similar Pharisaic parable (Matt. 12:27) and how he picked it up and turned it against his adversaries --
Taken literally, it is not in harmony with the orthodox conception of hell that it is claimed to prove. So-called immortal souls according to popular belief, do not possess fingers and eyes and tongues, neither is there visibility and conversation between heaven and hell. Taken literally, it is an absurdity from any point of view.
REV. 20:10 and 14:9-11
The other place used to support the theory of eternal torment is Rev. 20:10 --
We submit that any attempt to take the admittedly symbolic book of Revelation literally to teach doctrines that are at complete variance with the whole tenor of plain Scripture is extremely unsound and unjustified interpretation.
It would not be suggested that the wine of the wrath of God, and the cup of His indignation, and the beast, and the mark on the forehead, and the great city Babylon, all mentioned in these very same verses, are to be taken literally. All these things must be understood in harmony with the first principles of Scripture.
In Rev. 20:14 we have death and hell cast into this same lake of fire. Can death be literally cast anywhere? Is hell cast into hell? To childishly take isolated parts of this symbolism to bolster unscriptural notions is not the course of honesty or wisdom.
The plain scriptural teaching on the state of the dead and the destiny of the wicked is too clear and repeated to give any excuse for false doctrines to be built on such passages as these.
And it could be mentioned in passing that the expression here translated "for ever and ever’ does not in the Greek carry the same unlimited sense as the English, and must be understood in relation to the matter involved.
On the basis of all the foregoing, we conclude without doubt that HELL, as Scripturally understood, is the grave, the silent, dark, unseen resting-place of ALL the sleeping dead, the land of oblivion and forgetfulness -- and not the eternal, flaming torture-chamber of orthodox superstition. Hell is the GRAVE
There are only two places in all the Bible which could be considered to give it the slightest shadow of support, and both of these upon examination demonstrate the utter baselessness of the belief.
It is almost unbelievable that on the basis of such meager and twisted evidence, orthodox priestcraft should build such a repulsive and repugnant doctrine, in the face of the whole teaching and tenor of Scripture.
One would consider that men would be extremely reluctant to believe such things even on strong evidence, instead of eagerly snatching at isolated straws to support them in the very face of such strong evidence. Unfortunately, the men who translated the Scriptures into our tongue were steeped in this error and have colored their translation with it, as we have seen.
No honest and careful study of all the appearances of the words Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna, and of the teachings of Scripture on the nature of man and the destiny of the wicked, could possibly produce the lurid nightmare that is the orthodox conception of eternal torments amid the fiery demons of hell.
THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
First, we ask, is this parable to be taken literally and all the other plain teaching of Scripture rejected upon the strength of it? We must face this issue squarely and choose. The Scriptures say the dead are asleep in the dust of the earth, they know nothing, they will come forth to resurrection and judgment at the last day. We have seen that this is the consistent teaching of the Bible throughout.
Now we must either flatly reject ALL this testimony, or we must regard this story for what it truly and obviously is, a parable worded according to the false doctrines of the very class Jesus was addressing -- the Pharisees.
As is apparent from the contemporary Jewish historian Josephus, this account of Abraham’s bosom, the great gulf, the tormenting flame, was part of the pharisaical tradition by which they made void the Word of God (Mark 7:13), and Jesus was merely confounding them with their own errors and "answering a fool according to his folly" (Prov. 26:5) and "taking the wise in their own craftiness" (1 Cor. 3:19).
Compare his treatment of a similar Pharisaic parable (Matt. 12:27) and how he picked it up and turned it against his adversaries --
- "If I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges."
Taken literally, it is not in harmony with the orthodox conception of hell that it is claimed to prove. So-called immortal souls according to popular belief, do not possess fingers and eyes and tongues, neither is there visibility and conversation between heaven and hell. Taken literally, it is an absurdity from any point of view.
REV. 20:10 and 14:9-11
The other place used to support the theory of eternal torment is Rev. 20:10 --
- "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
- "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation.
"And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
We submit that any attempt to take the admittedly symbolic book of Revelation literally to teach doctrines that are at complete variance with the whole tenor of plain Scripture is extremely unsound and unjustified interpretation.
It would not be suggested that the wine of the wrath of God, and the cup of His indignation, and the beast, and the mark on the forehead, and the great city Babylon, all mentioned in these very same verses, are to be taken literally. All these things must be understood in harmony with the first principles of Scripture.
In Rev. 20:14 we have death and hell cast into this same lake of fire. Can death be literally cast anywhere? Is hell cast into hell? To childishly take isolated parts of this symbolism to bolster unscriptural notions is not the course of honesty or wisdom.
The plain scriptural teaching on the state of the dead and the destiny of the wicked is too clear and repeated to give any excuse for false doctrines to be built on such passages as these.
And it could be mentioned in passing that the expression here translated "for ever and ever’ does not in the Greek carry the same unlimited sense as the English, and must be understood in relation to the matter involved.
On the basis of all the foregoing, we conclude without doubt that HELL, as Scripturally understood, is the grave, the silent, dark, unseen resting-place of ALL the sleeping dead, the land of oblivion and forgetfulness -- and not the eternal, flaming torture-chamber of orthodox superstition. Hell is the GRAVE