Are you saved if you are not obedient?

[Depleted]

There are many threads about salvation being not of works, and how salvation occurs.

The other threads deal with how salvation occurs and are a merrygoround of one side saying saving faith is never void of works and one is saying you are not saved if you dont have works.
Its a never ending circle, so I wanna make a new thread with the purpose of asking a simple yes or no question.

Is an individual saved who is not obedient to Christ?

For Scripture I would bring up:

Hebrews 5:9
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

From what I've read in the Bible, I see no evidence that the men the Lord chose and who did become mighty men of God were always obedient. From what I've observed of the people who I do believe were/are saved, I have never met anyone who was completely obedient. From personal experience, I think I am saved and not completely obedient. From what I've known of nonbelievers, none of them even tried for obedience.

So, I'm thinking proof of salvation isn't in perfect obedience.

 

[HisPeace]

There are many threads about salvation being not of works, and how salvation occurs.

The other threads deal with how salvation occurs and are a merrygoround of one side saying saving faith is never void of works and one is saying you are not saved if you dont have works.
Its a never ending circle, so I wanna make a new thread with the purpose of asking a simple yes or no question.

Is an individual saved who is not obedient to Christ?

For Scripture I would bring up:

Hebrews 5:9
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

 

[stonesoffire]

There are many threads about salvation being not of works, and how salvation occurs.

The other threads deal with how salvation occurs and are a merrygoround of one side saying saving faith is never void of works and one is saying you are not saved if you dont have works.
Its a never ending circle, so I wanna make a new thread with the purpose of asking a simple yes or no question.

Is an individual saved who is not obedient to Christ?

For Scripture I would bring up:

Hebrews 5:9
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

~Heb 5:1　 For every high priest selected from among men is appointed to officiate on their behalf in matters relating to God, that is, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.　


Heb 5:2　 He can deal gently with people who are ignorant and easily deceived, since he himself is subject to weakness.
　
Heb 5:3　 For that reason he is obligated to offer sacrifices for his own sins as well as for those of the people.
　
Heb 5:4　 No one takes this honor upon himself but he is called to it by God, just as Aaron was.　


Heb 5:5　 In the same way, the Messiah did not take upon himself the glory of being a high priest. No, it was God who said to him, "You are my Son. Today I have become your Father."　


Heb 5:6　 As he also says in another place, "You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek."
　
Heb 5:7　 As a mortal man, he offered up prayers and appeals with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his devotion to God.
　
Heb 5:8　 Son though he was, he learned obedience through his sufferings　


Heb 5:9　 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,　


Heb 5:10


　 having been designated by God to be a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

He is the source of our eternal salvation for all who obey Him.

We heard His voice calling. We answered His call to turn away from sin and turn to Him. So what does obey mean in this instance?

~
obey:
G5219


ὑπακούω






hupakouō






hoop-ak-oo'-o






From G5259 and G191; to hear under (as a subordinate), that is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: - hearken, be obedient to, obey.

Did we repent from sin? Are we born again? Have we received Holy Spirit? Do we read the Word keep the words to our heart?

Did we hearken to His command? If so...He is the captain of our ETERNAL SALVATION. READ VERSE 9 AGAIN.










Total KJV occurrences: 21

We are hidden in the perfect One...safe, secure, kept. Saved.







　

 

[stonesoffire]

Hebrews 10:26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

This has to do with Messianic Jews who turn back to trusting laws, away from the grace of God through Jesus, the Son. If they sin....there is no more sacrifice for their sin.

 

[DJ2]

The question of the need to obey is a moot one if you believe in salvation by grace alone.

alone - to the exclusion of all others or all else.

It is the lack of understanding this definition that causes confusion among many.

If salvation is based on grace alone then yes obedience is not required or even expected.

 

[Adstar]

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. (James 1:22-25).

I asked '"What is your definition"" of the Word Obedient in relation to scriptures ?

More scriptures does not give me the interpretation of said scriptures.. Knowing another person interpretation of what it means lets us know everything they will build on that foundation..

A misguided interpretation will always lead to faulty doctrine..

 

[Adstar]

But that is not the point of obedience. Our salvation is guaranteed by the finished work of Christ

Therefore we must examine ourselves daily, confess and repent daily, then get up and move on. However, since God gave us His holy Spirit to EMPOWER us for obedience, holiness, and righteousness, we really have no excuse.

Once again, we are mixing up justification with sanctification. Not sure why Christians are unable to see the big picture.

Now we are back on the topic and all of this is true.

So your big picture seem to be that the Holy Spirit will empower you to make you sinless in the flesh.. Thus if you sin now you have no excuse..

Therefore if you sin today you have no excuse.. So if you sin today and die and stand before God you will have no excuse for sinning today..

So what happens to such a person who has no excuse on the day of judgement?

 

[joaniemarie]

Ask yourself this question; Were you saved by your obedience? Or were you saved by Christ's obedience?

 

[joaniemarie]

So your big picture seem to be that the Holy Spirit will empower you to make you sinless in the flesh.. Thus if you sin now you have no excuse..

Therefore if you sin today you have no excuse.. So if you sin today and die and stand before God you will have no excuse for sinning today..

So what happens to such a person who has no excuse on the day of judgement?

They are toast.

 

[dcontroversal]

hupakouó: to listen, attend to
Original Word: ὑπακούω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hupakouó
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-ak-oo'-o)
Short Definition: I listen, obey
Definition: I listen, hearken to, obey, answer

This word means to hear or hearken....I.E....It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe...

We hear the gospel of salvation...we HEARKEN unto it and ARE SAVED

That is exactly what is being stated...

When are you guys going to quit putting the cart before the ox....NO MAN can know, discern or spiritually judge the word of God, much less OBEY it unless already spiritually BORN FROM ABOVE ALREADY.........geesh!!!!!

 

[Beez]

Good post.
I think what hurts me and yes I say hurts me is that I see others trying to sanctify themselves.
If I'm perfect, don't sin, do all the right things, dot the I and cross the T.
Then maybe God will love me at best of not punish me at worst.

Walked that way for a long long long time.

If only we could all realise who we are in Jesus, what he has drive for us and how much he loves us.

One thing I have seen in such discussions on the internet

(And I certainly do NOT intend you, Bill G -- something in your post just reminded me)​

is that sometimes, when A sees B trying to do what the Bible says, A will be hard on B, declaring that B is trying to "earn" salvation, is a Pharisee, is a Judaizer, etc.

For many of us who choose to do our best to obey The Law, it is not at all in order to earn anything. That would be ridiculous for believers who obey Torah . . . in my opinion and as I understand the Bible. In my opinion, we all come to G-D on the same plane, and remain on the same plane as believers.

Some may disagree, but presently, I know of no one here who does.
But I'm new here.

And by the way, BillG, I may dot my lowercase Is and cross my Ts, but I refuse to either dot my lowercase Js or cross the uppercase Js. ​

​

 

[MarcR]

One thing I have seen in such discussions on the internet

(And I certainly do NOT intend you, Bill G -- something in your post just reminded me)​

is that sometimes, when A sees B trying to do what the Bible says, A will be hard on B, declaring that B is trying to "earn" salvation, is a Pharisee, is a Judaizer, etc.

For many of us who choose to do our best to obey The Law, it is not at all in order to earn anything. That would be ridiculous for believers who obey Torah . . . in my opinion and as I understand the Bible. In my opinion, we all come to G-D on the same plane, and remain on the same plane as believers.

Some may disagree, but presently, I know of no one here who does.
But I'm new here.

And by the way, BillG, I may dot my lowercase Is and cross my Ts, but I refuse to either dot my lowercase Js or cross the uppercase Js. ​

​

Beez

I think you may be misunderstanding the situation.

There are definitely some who do precisely as you say; but most of those who believe in both Salvation and Sanctification by grace (including myself) do not question what a person does in his/her personal walk with the Lord.

What most of us argue against is someone teaching that law keeping is necessary to someone else's walk with the Lord.


What is at issue is how we understand the purpose of the law.


I think we all agree that obedience to God is important.

I believe that the purpose of the Law was and still is to persuade people that they can't please God in their own efforts.

Some people still believe that the Law is a pathway to a moral life. As a Jewish believer, I am persuaded that it is not.

Php 2:13
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
KJV

Obedience is very important; but, I am persuaded that obedience comes from the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer and NOT from keeping Laws.

I would never tell anyone not to keep the Law if they feel led to do so.

I object to people telling me that my walk with the Lord depends on Law keeping.

 

[Beez]

Beez

I think you may be misunderstanding the situation. . . .

Perhaps I have, but I was not writing re what I've seen here.

I was threatened with being booted off another board just because I eat kosher. Indeed, they called me by the famous epithet, "Judaizer," when I only mentioned using a kosher diet when they asked. Real interesting posts were written, I was threatened with expulsion, so I left.

This happened to me.

 

[Miri]

Let me convey a little real story. It will be an eye opener I think


I young lady who was a prostitute and as a result, lost custody of her
child to the state, had a lot of drug problems, and was deeply troubled,
became a Christian at our church.

She was bubbly larger than life, happy, attended our small group. Was
always ready to pray for others, loved worshipping the Lord. Was fighting to
get back her daughter and prove she could be a good mother.

I was and still am, 100% she was born again but I always felt there was
something not quite right. I just couldn’t put my finger in it. I knew she
had a lot of spiritual growing to do and wondered if it was that.

Then several months later, she broke down and admitting she was still
prostituting herself on occasions. Even she didn’t understand why, maybe
it was out of habit, maybe she was seeking comfort who knows. She didn’t
really know herself.

Did she get shunned - no
Was she born again - absolutely
Was she convicted and ashamed - definately
She hated herself for it.

The church arranged and paid for her to go to a Teen Challange rehab
placement. She was a Christian but still broken inside with deep issues.

A year later she was a different person, genuinely warm, happy, at peace.
She realised who she was in Christ. She also gained custody of her
daughter and is doing brilliantly. She now works for Teen Challange and
is helping others via her own experiences.

I suppose some might think she was never saved in the first place.
She was, but being saved is the beginning of a journey not the end.

Its like when you pass your driving test you don’t instantly become the
worlds best driver. It takes experience and learning.

For us the santification process takes a life time.

Im 49, My Walk with Jesus has changed over the years. I’m not the
same person as I was when I was born again aged 11. Neither am I in
the same spiritual place as I was even 5 years ago.

Thank God for his life long instruction, that the teacher doesn’t give up
on us if we fail one test.

 

[OneFaith]

Our obedience doesn’t save us, but if we do not obey God will not save us.

 

[valiant]

The question of the need to obey is a moot one if you believe in salvation by grace alone.

alone - to the exclusion of all others or all else.

It is the lack of understanding this definition that causes confusion among many.

If salvation is based on grace alone then yes obedience is not required or even expected.

Obedience is not a requirement for salvation, it is the result of salvation.

When a man is born again God begins to work obedience in him. That is what 'saving' from the power of sin is all about (Phil 2.12-13). But he is first saved from the guilt and penalty of sin which requires only God's grace (Romans 3.22 on). God then works on him to become obedient,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Our obedience does not save us, If we are saved WE WILL obey.

People born of God are obedient, People not born of God are not (even if you, or they, think they are)

 

[valiant]

There are many threads about salvation being not of works, and how salvation occurs.

The other threads deal with how salvation occurs and are a merrygoround of one side saying saving faith is never void of works and one is saying you are not saved if you dont have works.
Its a never ending circle, so I wanna make a new thread with the purpose of asking a simple yes or no question.

Is an individual saved who is not obedient to Christ?

For Scripture I would bring up:

Hebrews 5:9
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

The idea behind Heb 5.9 is to initially obey Him by believing. As Jesus said, 'this is the work of God that you believe on Him Whom He has sent'.

 

[Rokurac]

Easy-believism seems to be popular. That was the purpose of this

The vast majority on here agree that salvation is by grace through faith.

It was just a matter of, does genuine faith equal to obedience or not.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

 

[Miri]

Easy-believism seems to be popular. That was the purpose of this

The vast majority on here agree that salvation is by grace through faith.

It was just a matter of, does genuine faith equal to obedience or not.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

True salvation is easy, so easy that even a child can understand.
Its man made religion and false works that make it hard.

I was chatting to someone a short while ago and they were commenting on how
many testimonies they had heard, where people said they believed in Jesus then
they gave up drinking, they gave up smoking, they started going to church.
Their testimonies were all about them.

A true testimony will be about how Jesus revealed Himself to them, a testimony
of revelation and a what Christ has done for them. You know I think he was right.


Matthew 18:2-5 NKJV
[2] Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them,
[3] and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become
as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
[4] Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest
in the kingdom of heaven. [5] Whoever receives one little child like this
in My name receives Me.