Are you saved if you are not obedient?

[eternally-gratefull]

Think on this bro:

Calvinists have the limited atonement thing going, and they also believe in once saved always saved or perseverence of the saints.
Then you ask them what about this warning passage and that warning passage about apostasy. They proceed to quote john's epistle out of context (they went out from us but were not of us etc.)and apply it to every apostate without realizing its talking about the gnostics who were antichrists denying Jesus came in the flesh as the context states.

All good so far, but then we get to one of the warning passages in Hebrews 10:29! And there it says they have trodden the son of God and have counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith they was sanctified, an unholy thing . Big problem! If Jesus didnt die for everyone there is nothing to trample and count unholy for the fake convert who was never real to begin with. They went out from us but were not of us dont apply to that verse. FAIL

This is where they're in trouble, they got three options:
1. Deny the P in TULIP which will never happen, too much time has gone by and too much tradition and pride.
2. Deny the L in TULIP which again will never happen
3. Pull up with mental gymnastics, and make fun of me or my argument or pull a rabbit of some kind out the hat. These guys tend to be very intellectual and educated by worldly standards so im excited to see what they'll come up with.

The answer to OP is simple, of course not! Glad the poll is at 100% its a closed case

People who do not believe in eternal security are trusting not in God for salvation, But in self.

It does not matter if your calvanist or not. Eternal life is eternal life. It is based on the work of God. Not in our own works. The question is, who do you trust . You? (If you do you will be spending your life trying to work to keep your salvation) or God, If this is the case, you will spend the rest of your life in the power of God trying to learn his ways, learning to love others, and learning to trust him in ALL areas of our life’s. In doing this, we will do many great works.

 

[Hizikyah]

the day people think doing the will of YHWH is self works or not believeing is the day the mystery of iniquity is surely in force.

 

[Dan58]

Faith is the demonstration of what we believe. This makes belief an actionable word, "Whosoever believeth" is not an insurance policy, but an acceptance of a Truth. Jesus told us to pray, ask, knock, love God, love others, etc. "He that loveth me keepeth my commandments". Belief without obedience is void of substance, real belief inspires and commits us to follow what we profess to be true, otherwise our testimony is in vain. Many came to Christ for healing, and he often said; "Thy faith has made thee whole". If those same sick believers weren't obedient, they'd still be sick. While we aren't saved by our own works, our actions demonstrate what we believe.

 

[BillG]

Well then threatening you was not quite kosher, since kosher metaphorically means what is right or righteous. As to dietary restrictions, Christians are free to follow the dictates of their own conscience, provided they allow other Christians the liberty of eating whatever they wish. In fact, the New Testament clearly teaches this truth, since Christ taught that it is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what comes out of his "heart" (soul).

Your embolded was funny and made the point.
Good post

 

[joaniemarie]

Very much enjoyed this thread. I used to be a 5 point Calvinist but have modified it somewhat over the years as I've matured. Am thankful for the solid foundation of Bible teaching received in our church. It has served our family well over the years as many topics and Bible questions were asked and answered by our pastor and church family that were basically very sound. Many of the answers lead to more questions that led to how I believe today.

It was encouraging to read another person asking about the meaning of TULIP as many don't even ask such questions and are so very lacking in Bible teaching even in the most basic fundamentals of the Christian faith. Why it's important to know we are all sinners with "imputed sin" from Adam that needs to be demolished and us given "imputed righteousness" in Christ to transform us.

Why it's important to know Jesus is God and not just and only a man but the God-man. Why it's important to know If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead thou shalt be saved...
For with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.. Romans 10:9-10

Why it's important to know that we are not saved by our works or kept by our works....For by grace you are saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast., for you are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God has before ordained that ye should walk in them...Eph.2:8-9

We were raised on the KJV Bible and memorized many verses in that version. Learning the foundational truths was vital. Today we use many different translations but the KJV is one of them. Today I don't think I know as much as I thought I knew back then., but today I do know beyond any doubt that God loves me 100% of the time because of Jesus and His imputed righteousness.

All those foundational truths of the faith are built on and help to strengthen and guide us into more truth. And the truth of 1 Cor.13:1-13 has become of more importance than first taught many years ago. Without God's love., we can know and be well versed in all the important doctrines of the faith but if we lack God's kind of unconditional gracious love., it's just a bunch of words on a page. Doctrine without love is like having a lovely and perfect dinner plate without any food on it.

 

[Depleted]

Faith is the demonstration of what we believe. This makes belief an actionable word, "Whosoever believeth" is not an insurance policy, but an acceptance of a Truth. Jesus told us to pray, ask, knock, love God, love others, etc. "He that loveth me keepeth my commandments". Belief without obedience is void of substance, real belief inspires and commits us to follow what we profess to be true, otherwise our testimony is in vain. Many came to Christ for healing, and he often said; "Thy faith has made thee whole". If those same sick believers weren't obedient, they'd still be sick. While we aren't saved by our own works, our actions demonstrate what we believe.

I have faith in the Philadelphia Eagles. Every August, (except 2015 and 2016), since 1980, I had full faith the Eagles would, not only go to the Super Bowl, but win it. Yes, I follow them. Yes, I groan at the bonehead moves, and shout at the glorious plays. Yes. They break my heart often. (Yearly, or loss by loss.) And, despite what happened last night, I STILL think they're going to the Super Bowl and will actually win the doggone thing this time. (They've gone twice. They've lost twice.)

That is faith!

That is optimistic, dogged-deterministic, and sheer-stupidity faith.

The differences between me having faith in the Eagles and me having faith in the Lord are important:
1. God gave me the faith to follow him, so it's not optimistic, dogged-deterministic, nor sheer-stupidity. It's him. Him, him, him, him, him!
2. He has never broken a promise and never made boneheaded plays. He is worthy to have faith in, as well as giving me the faith in him.

I think the issue of "faith" goes wrong because many people have their "faith" in God like I have faith in the Eagles. There is faith. But it's the wrong kind of faith. Always waiting for the shoe to drop, because deep down, it is blind faith. And blind faith is Philadelphia Eagles fan faith. That and five bucks can get you to Jersey and back. (The price to cross the bridge to New Jersey and back in a car. lol)

Real faith -- Godly faith -- is verifiable, although no one is ever going to convince me it is verifiable by our obedience. We're just not that obedient.

 

[followjesus]

There are many threads about salvation being not of works, and how salvation occurs.

The other threads deal with how salvation occurs and are a merrygoround of one side saying saving faith is never void of works and one is saying you are not saved if you dont have works.
Its a never ending circle, so I wanna make a new thread with the purpose of asking a simple yes or no question.

Is an individual saved who is not obedient to Christ?

For Scripture I would bring up:

Hebrews 5:9
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

the issue with this debate is that there are not two sides to it, its not grace alone, "its by Grace, through Faith" and faith without works is dead and useless. its a shame people look at obedience to God as a "work" to begin with when they point to the scripture " you are new creations created in Christ Jesus to do the good works prepared for you" yet the teaching of eternal Judgement is in ot and nt the same exact way all men will be judged according to thier deeds. this is in light of the cross.

romans 2 : But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God."


there really is no debate in reality its more of an invention of the gog to debate what we do against grace, its really both things grace is meant to lead to obedience here and now, but the gog makes the definition of grace, opposite anything were instructed to do. Grace is meant for this reason alone

titus 2: "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."


to me it seems more like the modern gospel of grace distortion, teaches the gracers that works are a bad thing, but according to paul it is meant to bring us to repentance, and obedience in this present world...and is meant to make us a peculiar people who are ZEALOUS of good works.


by Gods Grace, we are offered reconciliation, forgiveness and empowerment to repent and live as if we Love God, because Jesus has shown us His Love first. The bible isnt contradicting itself, paul is not speaking of grace alone, and obedience doesnt apply. hes actually very clear about the disobedient not being included in the Kingdom of God. its too bad there are so many false doctrines. whether one thinks we can earn our way home, or if no matter what we do were alreay home both are incomplete

 

[MarcR]

this place does allow for promotion of cults. look at the sabbath threads where the sunday mark of the beast trash is spouted.

point well taken. Perhaps I should have said it is their stated policy. My point was and you will likely agree: This forum has a much more open attitude.

 

[Magenta]

point well taken. Perhaps I should have said it is their stated policy. My point was and you will likely agree: This forum has a much more open attitude.

Heresy will be tolerated up to a certain point. I have this bookmarked:

Let me say this first. We do not necessarily ban every user immediately for supporting heresy. Some of it comes down to our perception of the user since some persons that proclaim heresy are correctable whereas others are clearly attempting to promote and spread their heresy. In other words, just because someone doesn't get removed immediately for promoting heresy doesn't mean that we won't remove them eventually if they continue in it.

This is not all inclusive just some of the more common:

Rejecting the deity/eternity of Christ

Rejection of the Trinity (we tend to allow wiggle room for Oneness Pentecostals) but we do hold that Modalism/Seballianism is heresy

Rejecting the omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence of God

Rejecting the Pauline Epistles

Universalism (eventually everyone goes to Heaven)

Serpent Seed

Aryan Israelism

Afro Israelism

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Heresy will be tolerated up to a certain point. I have this bookmarked:

Thats sad I have not even heard of some of them.. lol

 

[DJ2]

People who do not believe in eternal security are trusting not in God for salvation, But in self.

It does not matter if your calvanist or not. Eternal life is eternal life. It is based on the work of God. Not in our own works. The question is, who do you trust . You? (If you do you will be spending your life trying to work to keep your salvation) or God, If this is the case, you will spend the rest of your life in the power of God trying to learn his ways, learning to love others, and learning to trust him in ALL areas of our life’s. In doing this, we will do many great works.

People who do not believe in eternal security are trusting not in God for salvation, But in self.

This is a bogus assertion. It shows a rather flippant attitude toward others who simply are pointing out the flow and form of the Bible as one of God rewarding man for his obedience. You need to come off your high horse and realize that no one is claiming the ability to grant themselves the forgiveness of sins any more then you are.

While the trust only groups must pick and twist certain verses to defend their theology the entire flow and form of the Bible is God both demanding and expecting not just lip service but actual deeds from His creation.

The walls of Jericho only fell after the walking was done. God demanded the action before the reward. The walking did not knock down the wall, faith in the walking did not knock down the wall. God knocked down the wall because the Israelites obeyed His command.

 

[UnderGrace]

Yup and that is why Jesus came.... to fulfill by actual deeds, but it would seem you are saying His work was not enough then?

Under this line of reasoning then one must add to His work ...yet........ He says to abide in Him, so then, that is our action of obedience.

From there, all other actions flow, because they flow from Him, whose life is hid within us, if it is not from Him then you are adding to His completed work which cannot be done.

While the trust only groups must pick and twist certain verses to defend their theology the entire flow and form of the Bible is God both demanding and expecting not just lip service but actual deeds from His creation.

This is a bogus assertion. It shows a rather flippant attitude toward others who simply are pointing out the flow and form of the Bible as one of God rewarding man for his obedience. You need to come off your high horse and realize that no one is claiming the ability to grant themselves the forgiveness of sins any more then you are.

While the trust only groups must pick and twist certain verses to defend their theology the entire flow and form of the Bible is God both demanding and expecting not just lip service but actual deeds from His creation.

The walls of Jericho only fell after the walking was done. God demanded the action before the reward. The walking did not knock down the wall, faith in the walking did not knock down the wall. God knocked down the wall because the Israelites obeyed His command.

 

[Dan58]

I have faith in the Philadelphia Eagles.
Real faith -- Godly faith -- is verifiable, although no one is ever going to convince me it is verifiable by our obedience. We're just not that obedient.

I don't think faith is verifiable, the very meaning of Faith is to believe in something despite the absence of tangible proof or the evidence to substantiate it. If God were verifiable, we wouldn't need faith. Our obedience is evidence of our faith (Hebrews 11:1). I think your "faith" in the Eagles is really just "hope".. Regrettably, I'm a Bears fan, so I have no hope.

 

[Nehemiah6]

... others who simply are pointing out the flow and form of the Bible as one of God rewarding man for his obedience.

There is no question that the Bible teaches that obedience is rewarded (as illustrated in Deuteronomy 28), and disobedience is punished (Deuteronomy 27).

But when it comes to the Gospel, eternal life is given as A GIFT to the one who obeys the Gospel. Rewards are earned, but God's gifts cannot be earned or merit. They are purely given by God's grace. I trust we are both on the same page.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is a bogus assertion. It shows a rather flippant attitude toward others who simply are pointing out the flow and form of the Bible as one of God rewarding man for his obedience. You need to come off your high horse and realize that no one is claiming the ability to grant themselves the forgiveness of sins any more then you are.

High Horse?

Reality is not a high horse. it is reality.


God does not reward anyone salvation BECAUSE they live righteous lives. He GIFTS eternal life for those who fall and call out to him. Anyone who teaches salvation is a REWARD is trusting in SELF for salvation not God.

He rewards people who out of the RESULT of thei salvation, have done obedient acts (works)

While the trust only groups must pick and twist certain verses to defend their theology the entire flow and form of the Bible is God both demanding and expecting not just lip service but actual deeds from His creation.

The walls of Jericho only fell after the walking was done. God demanded the action before the reward. The walking did not knock down the wall, faith in the walking did not knock down the wall. God knocked down the wall because the Israelites obeyed His command.

So you’re trying to use a means of punishment as a means of how we are saved? Wow man, Again, Whoever your teacher is, you need to find another one.

Then read John 6, It shows how wrong you are.

 

[BillG]

Thats sad I have not even heard of some of them.. lol

Nor me.
I never realised Pauline wrote any epistles.
Where can I find them

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nor me.
I never realised Pauline wrote any epistles.
Where can I find them

I never even heard of her who is she?

 

[Ralph-]

There are many threads about salvation being not of works, and how salvation occurs.

The other threads deal with how salvation occurs and are a merrygoround of one side saying saving faith is never void of works and one is saying you are not saved if you dont have works.
Its a never ending circle, so I wanna make a new thread with the purpose of asking a simple yes or no question.

Is an individual saved who is not obedient to Christ?

For Scripture I would bring up:

Hebrews 5:9
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

it's funny to hear people say Christians will have works, then see them turn right around and say the one with no works is still saved (you know that hay and wood thing).

 

[notuptome]

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Beyond this what else must we obey?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Snoozy]

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Beyond this what else must we obey?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

there is a lot more to the bible than the verses that say believe. u do know that? there are many many things the NT tells us to do and obey.