Augustine and Original Sin

[gogeta0064]

and i cant help it if i see someone misinterpret the Word, and use it to say it's okay to sin, because you've been predestined to be a Christian before time began, and you can sin all you want, even deny Jesus Christ, and still get into heaven, because once you're saved you're always saved...
THAT is offensive to our God. that is offensive, to say God is the Author of sin... and the "holier-than-thou" attitude is very evident within Calvinism... it creates ego problems, and an antinomian and arrogant behavior beyond everything else.
that is what is unbiblical... just like John Calvin before you, you falsely accuse me of works salvation when I have never said in ANY post that salvation is through works.
The same egotistical and prideful spirit that resided in John Calvin, when he murdered Michael and justified it with his faith, resides within you.

i have nothing further to say to you

 

[Tombo]

and i cant help it if i see someone misinterpret the Word, and use it to say it's okay to sin, because you've been predestined to be a Christian before time began, and you can sin all you want, even deny Jesus Christ, and still get into heaven, because once you're saved you're always saved...
THAT is offensive to our God. that is offensive, to say God is the Author of sin... and the "holier-than-thou" attitude is very evident within Calvinism... it creates ego problems, and an antinomian and arrogant behavior beyond everything else.
that is what is unbiblical... just like John Calvin before you, you falsely accuse me of works salvation when I have never said in ANY post that salvation is through works.
The same egotistical and prideful spirit that resided in John Calvin, when he murdered Michael and justified it with his faith, resides within you.

i have nothing further to say to you

I have never taught that it is ok to sin. And you certainly never heard me say that you can deny Jesus Christ! Show me one place that I have ever said any of that, you won't find it. It is your misunderstanding of the biblical teaching on the subject that makes you come to that conclusion. You don't understand that we are born sinners, slaves to sin, until God frees us in Christ and makes us slaves to God. You don't think you are as bad a the bible says you are. You are not alone, many people would rather make themselves good in their own eyes, than face what God says about us. When we realize that we arfe completely dependent on God to save us, it makes us anything but arrogant! It is the "I can repent out of my own goodness" teaching that puffs people up.
If you really want to discuss the truths of the bible, I would be glad to have a give and take with you, hash it out with mutual respect. I am not this monster that you think I am. If I didn't care about peoples souls, I would not bother speaking here at all.
God bless.

Tom

 

[Skinski7]

I have not falsely accused or slandered anyone. What those men teach is not found in the Bible, but is a figment of thier own imagination. I must warn others to flee from their teaching if I find it unbiblical. I can't help it if you dislike me correcting people according to what I see in God's word.
At least you were honest enough to admit you registered under another name after being banned from this site.
God bless.

Tom

Yes you have Tombo and you have done it continually.

You do it by rewording what I write turning it into a fiction. Here is the one post which I called you on.

I really hate to see you stand before the judge of all the earth and say "look Lord, see how good I was in repenting of my sins? I did it all on my own, I didn't need Jesus to take it away. Sin is only a choice, and I made a choice to repent and save myself, while all of the other people out there rejected repentance and doomed themsleves. Oh, how good I am Lord, give me my payment of eternal life that is due to me. Forget this grace stuff Lord, you owe me salvation since I repented of my sins in my own power. You can thank your Son for dying for me, but I really didn't need it."
That is the gospel of Skinski.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/41133-children-saved-2.html#post694094


I have said over and over that there is no pride when we repent, there is no going before God and saying "look at me and I how good I am."

There is only broken sorror...
Jon 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I have never said that one repents on their own, I have simply said that one has to repent BEFORE GOd will forgive them and that repentance comes before salvation.

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

I have never said God owes us forgiveness or salvation. It is by God's grace and mercy that He offers it to us. I have simply said that it is completely conditional on repentance and faith.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I have never said that we do not need the death of Jesus. He died as a propitiation on our behalf for our past sins. Also without abiding in Jesus Christ we cannot bear the fruit of righteousness for it is in walking in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ that we are set free from sin.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.



You just ignore what I say and twist it into something else. You just did it again...

Who knows, maybe they will one day realize that they are born dead in sin and are completely dependent on God for all of their salvation. If they keep trampling Christ under foot the way that they've been doing, I would not want to be in their shoes on judgment day. Can you imagine coming before the Almighty with the boast, "LOOK AT HOW GOOD WE WERE LORD. LET US INTO OUR ETERNAL REST WITH YOU. WE HAVE REPENTED, YOU MUST LET US IN. WE HAVE USED OUR FREEWILL AND GOODNESS TO OBEY YOU. WE REALLY DIDN'T NEED JESUS, BUT THANKS ANYWAY. JESUS WAS A GOOD EXAMPLE (OF WHO KNOWS WHAT), BUT WE HAD THE POWER TO REPENT AND SAVE OURSELVES, SO HIS SACRIFICE WASN'T REALLY NECESSARY. WE HAD GOODNESS WITHIN US ALL ALONG. THAT GUY PAUL LIED IN YOUR WORD WHEN HE SAID WE WERE SLAVES TO SIN AND COULDN'T DO ANYTHING TO SAVE OURSELVES, AND THAT WE HAD TO REST COMPLETELY IN YOUR SON FOR OUR SALVATION. SURELY YOU MUST SEE HOW YOUR WORD WAS WRONG ON THIS POINT LORD. I GUESS EVEN GOD MAKES MISTAKES. LORD, WE WEREN'T REALLY DEAD IN SIN, WE WERE JUST FOOLED BY FOLLOWING BAD EXAMPLES. WE HATE TO KEEP CORRECTING YOU LORD, SO PLEASE JUST LET US INTO OUR REST AND WE WILL STOP CRITICIZING YOU AND YOUR WORD."

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/41119-augustine-original-sin-8.html#post697459


Not only do you completely ignore what I write, you lie about it.

Again you say that we are boasting in repentance, that we don't need Jesus, that God owes us, that we can save ourselves, that we call Paul a liar, etc.

Why? Why the lies Tombo?

Why not use the scriptures and demonstrate my errors. Rom 3:25 says "past sins" yet you won't address that. 2 Cor 7:10 has repentance unto salvation but you won't address that. You won't show me where in the Bible it says we are born dead in sin. On and on.

You constantly accuse of cut and pasting. I hardly cut and paste anything except the scriptures. I have written extensively on these forums. I try to address any scripture put forth because I seek the harmony of the scripture, I seek the truth, our opinions are not sacred only the truth is. The truth will not bend to our opinions, we must bend to the truth whatever it may be.

Now I read Abiding say this...

ya im ready to petition they be banned and let them have their pursecution complex be filled

Is that where it is at? Trying to shut us down when the specific issues we raise are completely ignored?

Abiding how about you explain why the Bible refers to PAST SINS being forgiven and why it does not say future if the Penal Substitution view of the atonement is correct?

Why not explain how "being positionally righteous while you still sin" harmonsies with 1 Joh 3:7?

Why not explain how being saved and serving two masters works when the Bible specifically states you cannot serve two masters and that you are a slave to whom you obey?

Your theology contradicts the plain teachings of the scriptures and I point these fallacies out. So you want to petition that I be banned so I cannot do this?




Anyone who makes any sort of allowance of a continuation of willful sin and being saved at the same time is in error. It is Satan's first lie of "ye shall not surely die." The blood of Jesus Christ is not a cover for continued willful sin, it cleanses you are all sin. You are not made clean so you can still be filthy. That is trampling the blood and treating it like animal blood.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

The willful sin stops in repentance otherwise you have not been set free and are still in bondage.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Righteousness is not positional, it is what you DO. That is why we will all be judged by our deeds.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,




Do not be deceived!

 

[Tommy4Christ]

To say in any way, shape or form, we are bragging to God about our repentance, and telling Him we deserve it from Him is twisting scriptures, and just plain lies!

In you mind, since you are deluded, you see it this way, because you believe you have no free will or ability to repent unto salvation as the scriptures clearly say.

You are calling the word of God a lie, and cannot see what real brokenness and humility is, that is portrayed very vividly in Jonah Ch3, the Prodigal, the thief on the cross, and many more humble men of God, who knew what real repentance was, as described in Isa55-7, and all through the book of Acts, such as Acts 3-19, and Acts 20-21.

God is the author of salvation, the giver, and influences us, but doesnt make us, or do it for us. We must choose to repent or perish, and its very important we all know what repentance and faith is, study it apart from the reformed teachings, as described by the early church, pre-reformation disciples.

I see repentance as a privilege from God, thus showing His great patients, mercy and long suffering for all mankind, as he waits for all to come to repentance, 2 Peter-3-9!

But to say our repentance saves us is a lie, it only prepares the heart to receive mercy, a pure and cleansed heart, cleared through a crisis of conviction, unto godly sorrow, which is the epitome of humility, and brokenness before God!

The sorrow of the world brings people into the kingdom still defiled, still in bondage and still double minded, this is not the way to eternal life, God has made it clear to all who have ears to hear and a heart to obey!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

and it's not very Christian either to falsely accuse others of lies and false doctrine and falsely accuse others of slander.
you've been doing that constantly with anyone who disagrees with you, and i got to a point to where i got sick and tired of it. you do it to me, skinski7, tommy4christ, and any other person who disagrees with you... you label them as "heretics", "unsaved", "nonbelievers", etc... you attack, insult, degrade, demean, and ad hominem every chance you get when someone has a differing opinion.

consider yourself reported.

Thats funny considering the people you are defending do exactly what you claim Tombo is doing

 

[eternally-gratefull]

and i cant help it if i see someone misinterpret the Word, and use it to say it's okay to sin, because you've been predestined to be a Christian before time began, and you can sin all you want, even deny Jesus Christ, and still get into heaven, because once you're saved you're always saved...
THAT is offensive to our God. that is offensive, to say God is the Author of sin... and the "holier-than-thou" attitude is very evident within Calvinism... it creates ego problems, and an antinomian and arrogant behavior beyond everything else.
that is what is unbiblical... just like John Calvin before you, you falsely accuse me of works salvation when I have never said in ANY post that salvation is through works.
The same egotistical and prideful spirit that resided in John Calvin, when he murdered Michael and justified it with his faith, resides within you.

i have nothing further to say to you

1. Who is here preaching it is ok to sin? Never seen it, and if I did I owuld be all over them.
2. who says you can deny Christ and still get to heaven? John says they were never saved, so if they were never saved, how could they get to heaven?
3. Whats offensive to god is saying the death of his son, which he said is sufficient, and the endgame, and is all we need, it not enough, AND we have to add our own works to the work of Christ to save ourselves.

 

[Tombo]

Yes you have Tombo and you have done it continually.

You do it by rewording what I write turning it into a fiction. Here is the one post which I called you on.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/41133-children-saved-2.html#post694094


I have said over and over that there is no pride when we repent, there is no going before God and saying "look at me and I how good I am."

There is only broken sorror...
Jon 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I have never said that one repents on their own, I have simply said that one has to repent BEFORE GOd will forgive them and that repentance comes before salvation.

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

I have never said God owes us forgiveness or salvation. It is by God's grace and mercy that He offers it to us. I have simply said that it is completely conditional on repentance and faith.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I have never said that we do not need the death of Jesus. He died as a propitiation on our behalf for our past sins. Also without abiding in Jesus Christ we cannot bear the fruit of righteousness for it is in walking in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ that we are set free from sin.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.



You just ignore what I say and twist it into something else. You just did it again...

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/41119-augustine-original-sin-8.html#post697459


Not only do you completely ignore what I write, you lie about it.

Again you say that we are boasting in repentance, that we don't need Jesus, that God owes us, that we can save ourselves, that we call Paul a liar, etc.

Why? Why the lies Tombo?

Why not use the scriptures and demonstrate my errors. Rom 3:25 says "past sins" yet you won't address that. 2 Cor 7:10 has repentance unto salvation but you won't address that. You won't show me where in the Bible it says we are born dead in sin. On and on.

You constantly accuse of cut and pasting. I hardly cut and paste anything except the scriptures. I have written extensively on these forums. I try to address any scripture put forth because I seek the harmony of the scripture, I seek the truth, our opinions are not sacred only the truth is. The truth will not bend to our opinions, we must bend to the truth whatever it may be.

Now I read Abiding say this...



Is that where it is at? Trying to shut us down when the specific issues we raise are completely ignored?

Abiding how about you explain why the Bible refers to PAST SINS being forgiven and why it does not say future if the Penal Substitution view of the atonement is correct?

Why not explain how "being positionally righteous while you still sin" harmonsies with 1 Joh 3:7?

Why not explain how being saved and serving two masters works when the Bible specifically states you cannot serve two masters and that you are a slave to whom you obey?

Your theology contradicts the plain teachings of the scriptures and I point these fallacies out. So you want to petition that I be banned so I cannot do this?




Anyone who makes any sort of allowance of a continuation of willful sin and being saved at the same time is in error. It is Satan's first lie of "ye shall not surely die." The blood of Jesus Christ is not a cover for continued willful sin, it cleanses you are all sin. You are not made clean so you can still be filthy. That is trampling the blood and treating it like animal blood.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

The willful sin stops in repentance otherwise you have not been set free and are still in bondage.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Righteousness is not positional, it is what you DO. That is why we will all be judged by our deeds.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,




Do not be deceived!

I stand behind what I have written about your doctrines. Do I hate you? No. Have I slandered you? No. Have I spoken against your false doctrines for the good of others, so that thye won't be deceived? Yes. And I will continue to do so.
Man is dead in sin and unbelief, He has nothing good in himdelf. We must look to Jesus Christ alone to save us. Our works are as filthy rags and do not add one iota to our salvation, or to losing our salvation. God is sovereign over all. He owes us nothing but judgment, but has stooped down to save us. Don't destroy the work of Christ by adding your works, you will only destroy yourself in the end. That is a warning to all here.
God bless.

Tom

 

[Skinski7]

I stand behind what I have written about your doctrines. Do I hate you? No. Have I slandered you? No. Have I spoken against your false doctrines for the good of others, so that thye won't be deceived? Yes. And I will continue to do so.
Man is dead in sin and unbelief, He has nothing good in himdelf. We must look to Jesus Christ alone to save us. Our works are as filthy rags and do not add one iota to our salvation, or to losing our salvation. God is sovereign over all. He owes us nothing but judgment, but has stooped down to save us. Don't destroy the work of Christ by adding your works, you will only destroy yourself in the end. That is a warning to all here.
God bless.

Tom

Again you just use rhetoric. You don't dare address the specifics because what you believe is clearly contradicted by the clear teachings of scripture. The light of the scriptures clearly expose you.

Have you crucified your flesh with its passions and desires and thus belong to Jesus Christ?

 

[Abiding]

Yes you have Tombo and you have done it continually.

You do it by rewording what I write turning it into a fiction. Here is the one post which I called you on.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/41133-children-saved-2.html#post694094


I have said over and over that there is no pride when we repent, there is no going before God and saying "look at me and I how good I am."

There is only broken sorror...
Jon 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I have never said that one repents on their own, I have simply said that one has to repent BEFORE GOd will forgive them and that repentance comes before salvation.

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

I have never said God owes us forgiveness or salvation. It is by God's grace and mercy that He offers it to us. I have simply said that it is completely conditional on repentance and faith.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I have never said that we do not need the death of Jesus. He died as a propitiation on our behalf for our past sins. Also without abiding in Jesus Christ we cannot bear the fruit of righteousness for it is in walking in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ that we are set free from sin.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.



You just ignore what I say and twist it into something else. You just did it again...

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/41119-augustine-original-sin-8.html#post697459


Not only do you completely ignore what I write, you lie about it.

Again you say that we are boasting in repentance, that we don't need Jesus, that God owes us, that we can save ourselves, that we call Paul a liar, etc.

Why? Why the lies Tombo?

Why not use the scriptures and demonstrate my errors. Rom 3:25 says "past sins" yet you won't address that. 2 Cor 7:10 has repentance unto salvation but you won't address that. You won't show me where in the Bible it says we are born dead in sin. On and on.

You constantly accuse of cut and pasting. I hardly cut and paste anything except the scriptures. I have written extensively on these forums. I try to address any scripture put forth because I seek the harmony of the scripture, I seek the truth, our opinions are not sacred only the truth is. The truth will not bend to our opinions, we must bend to the truth whatever it may be.

Now I read Abiding say this...



Is that where it is at? Trying to shut us down when the specific issues we raise are completely ignored?

Abiding how about you explain why the Bible refers to PAST SINS being forgiven and why it does not say future if the Penal Substitution view of the atonement is correct?

Why not explain how "being positionally righteous while you still sin" harmonsies with 1 Joh 3:7?

Why not explain how being saved and serving two masters works when the Bible specifically states you cannot serve two masters and that you are a slave to whom you obey?

Your theology contradicts the plain teachings of the scriptures and I point these fallacies out. So you want to petition that I be banned so I cannot do this?




Anyone who makes any sort of allowance of a continuation of willful sin and being saved at the same time is in error. It is Satan's first lie of "ye shall not surely die." The blood of Jesus Christ is not a cover for continued willful sin, it cleanses you are all sin. You are not made clean so you can still be filthy. That is trampling the blood and treating it like animal blood.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

The willful sin stops in repentance otherwise you have not been set free and are still in bondage.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Righteousness is not positional, it is what you DO. That is why we will all be judged by our deeds.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,




Do not be deceived!

Yes i do want you outa here. Do u sin?

 

[Abiding]

Again you just use rhetoric. You don't dare address the specifics because what you believe is clearly contradicted by the clear teachings of scripture. The light of the scriptures clearly expose you.

Have you crucified your flesh with its passions and desires and thus belong to Jesus Christ?

Have u? do you sin?

 

[Abiding]

Tommy do u sin?

 

[Tombo]

Again you just use rhetoric. You don't dare address the specifics because what you believe is clearly contradicted by the clear teachings of scripture. The light of the scriptures clearly expose you.

Have you crucified your flesh with its passions and desires and thus belong to Jesus Christ?[/quote]

You crucify the flesh with its passions BECAUSE YOU BELONG TO JESUS CHRIST, not in order to become saved!!!! Why can't you inderstand that??? I have shown you a multitude of verses and you ignore them. You are blinded, that is the only conclusion I can reach about someone who refuses to give God all the glory for their salvation. What you teach is not Christianity. You teach works to save yourself and it will never work.

Tom

 

[frankleespeaking]

really interesting! I've always found some things that didn't make sense in light of original sin, of course regardless of the possibility of living sinless none have accomplished such a feit until Christ.

 

[Skinski7]

Again you just use rhetoric. You don't dare address the specifics because what you believe is clearly contradicted by the clear teachings of scripture. The light of the scriptures clearly expose you.

Have you crucified your flesh with its passions and desires and thus belong to Jesus Christ?[/quote]

You crucify the flesh with its passions BECAUSE YOU BELONG TO JESUS CHRIST, not in order to become saved!!!! Why can't you inderstand that??? I have shown you a multitude of verses and you ignore them. You are blinded, that is the only conclusion I can reach about someone who refuses to give God all the glory for their salvation. What you teach is not Christianity. You teach works to save yourself and it will never work.

Tom

Think carefully about this for a minute.

In your last statement you are using the same logic you have used when you have been critical of my repentance message. You have said to me on several occasions that repentance comes AFTER salvation. Yet the Paul wrote in 2Cor 7:10 that repentance comes BEFORE salvation when he used the words "godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation." That scripture is pretty clear.

I think you have a stronghold in your mind where you deem man unable to turn to God unless they get saved first. Thus is does not matter what the scriptures plainly say, you conclude that they are saying the opposite.Thus your view of the crucifixion of the flesh with its passions and desires has to be a fruit of salvation as opposed to something that is a requirement of salvation.

Clearly laying aside all filthiness and overflowing of wickedness (Jam 1:21) so as to receive with meekness the implanted word which is able to save the soul is depicting that the prior must occur to make way for the latter.

In the same way the old man must be put off for the new man to be born. Those that are Christ's do not sin (1Joh 5:18) because they keep themselves from the passions and desires of their flesh because those desires are crucified. Do you reject this statement?

God is the author of salvation of all those whom obey Him.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Yet you must view this scripture as teaching that obedience is a result of salvation. You have it backwards if that is the case.

If repentance or self denial came after salvation then why did Jesus preach repentance and self denial? Why didn't he teach that one ought to just get saved and then those things would be automatic?

Nevertheless you are still in contradiction because you do not believe that the sin actually stops. You hold to a the gradual sanctification of sinning less and less, thus you obviously don't believe in true obedience at all, rather only some sort of partial obedience. Correct me if I am wrong.

Carefully reread my posts and be very specific as to what you perceive to be an error and then correct the error with the correct use of scripture. Actually quote me and respond directly to a statement I make instead of redefine what I say into a fiction and then speaking rhetoric against the fiction. That is dishonest, pointless and means there is no conversation because it means you are not hearing what I am saying. Rather you are having a circular conversation with yourself.

If you are truly a seeker of the truth or are truly contending for the truth you will do this. Otherwise you are just blowing smoke.

God is not the author of confusion and the light of truth will always expose that which is false.

If you have light then let it shine. I have certainly explained my position with a clear exposition of scripture. Can you do the same? And if you do can it stand the test of the applied context of scripture?

 

[Skinski7]

really interesting! I've always found some things that didn't make sense in light of original sin, of course regardless of the possibility of living sinless none have accomplished such a feit until Christ.

Make sure you watch the video presentation I put together. I went to great lengths to annotate all the references from the early church to clearly depict what was taught so as to contextualise Augustine's philosophy.

Original sin is dangerous because it redefines the whole gospel message and very few people have really looked into its origin.

We are fortunate to live in a time where early church writings are freely available for free online and thus it is quite easy to research these issues.

There is definitely no excuse to be deceived today.

 

[Crossfire]

and i cant help it if i see someone misinterpret the Word, and use it to say it's okay to sin, because you've been predestined to be a Christian before time began, and you can sin all you want, even deny Jesus Christ, and still get into heaven, because once you're saved you're always saved...
THAT is offensive to our God. that is offensive, to say God is the Author of sin... and the "holier-than-thou" attitude is very evident within Calvinism... it creates ego problems, and an antinomian and arrogant behavior beyond everything else.
that is what is unbiblical... just like John Calvin before you, you falsely accuse me of works salvation when I have never said in ANY post that salvation is through works.
The same egotistical and prideful spirit that resided in John Calvin, when he murdered Michael and justified it with his faith, resides within you.

i have nothing further to say to you

What's sad is the very few people seem to be able to debate controversial topics with making or taking things personally. This usually occurs when people who take a lot of personal pride in their beliefs feel offended by something someone else has said, even if the other person did not mean to be offensive.

Personally, I do not take things personally nor do I try to make things personal. I try to use generalities in order to avoid offending someone however, some people may not understand the intended context I'm attempting to use, while others might be easily offended regardless. If I find myself getting a little hot under the collar then I'll avoid the conversation altogether for a day or two until cooler heads prevail. Although, I'll be the first to admit that I didn't always see things this way in the past.

The way I see it, if you can't debate without getting emotional thus taking offense or offending someone else, then that person shouldn't be debating at all.

 

[frankleespeaking]

I stand behind what I have written about your doctrines. Do I hate you? No. Have I slandered you? No. Have I spoken against your false doctrines for the good of others, so that thye won't be deceived? Yes. And I will continue to do so.
Man is dead in sin and unbelief, He has nothing good in himdelf. We must look to Jesus Christ alone to save us. Our works are as filthy rags and do not add one iota to our salvation, or to losing our salvation. God is sovereign over all. He owes us nothing but judgment, but has stooped down to save us. Don't destroy the work of Christ by adding your works, you will only destroy yourself in the end. That is a warning to all here.
God bless.

Tom

why would God owe us judgement if He is behind all our actions?

 

[Skinski7]

Have u? do you sin?

I was double minded for many years until I came to a realisation of what the Gospel message actually was.

I was broken on the rock of Jesus Christ and I thus forsook all my known sin. I now live a crucified life daily not yielding my body to sin. I walk according to the Spirit yielding to its leading.

Jesus Christ saved me from being enslaved to sin and I am now, through His power, to walk in the light.

I still make mistakes and misjudgments and am growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ, learning how to carry myself, make righteous judgment, and how to better approach people to learn and teach. Yet these mistakes and misjudgments are not presumptuous sins and I thus walk by faith in my Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[Red33]

Again you just use rhetoric. You don't dare address the specifics because what you believe is clearly contradicted by the clear teachings of scripture. The light of the scriptures clearly expose you.

Have you crucified your flesh with its passions and desires and thus belong to Jesus Christ?

You don't crucify the desires and passions of the flesh through repentance. To crucify means to die and the only way we can bring death to any of these things is through the cross, not some abstract power of repentance. Not even a donkey would believe such a thing about repentance. Everything that we are and have inherited from Adam has been crucified by the cross of Christ and we reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin. RECKON! RECKON! RECKON! not repentance but RECKON! How easy God has it made for the believer with no works of repentance, just faith in what Christ has done.

Christ did all the work and we RECKON on it. You poor saps that have to keep repenting all the time when you sin when all you would have to do is reckon yourself dead unto the sin that you confess to God and receive grace and go on by faith, justified and complete in Christ. All you boneheads who like to stay away from the finished work of Christ and keep others in bondage to sin through repentance. Perhaps you should be the ones that have the millstone cast about your neck because of the way you keep offending God's little ones that believe through a child like faith.

Why don't you just go away from this site and cover yourself with sackcloth and ashes and see if that can help you, while we just exercise faith in the promises of God and in what has been accomplished by Christ on our behalf and that will never make us desire to continue in sin. We may sin, but that will not be our desire and we know exactly what to do if that happens. RECKON! RECKON! RECKON! (Rom 6:11) and that is how we keep sin from reigning in our mortal bodies. The next time you have a wicked thought toward someone, right then the Holy Spirit convicts your heart, you confess it and reckon yourself to be dead to that sin and it does not reign or have dominion over you because you are not your sin. That is victory and that is what we do with the grace of God, we exercise that grace and truth toward ourselves and we don't condemn ourselves in that thing we allow to happen (Rom 14:22) and when we do it God's way we are happy.

 

[Crossfire]

If you guys can't debate without insulting one another then you have no business debating. Your actions are contrary to your words thus you are making yourselves look foolish.