Baptism symbol only ?

[RedTent]

OK so why should we HAVE to be baptized if justification relies on us accepting Jesus without being baptized?

Scripture often speaks of obeying legalistically, or obeying by the letter of the law, only. It is clear that God does not accept this as true obedience. No where in the bible does it say we are forbidden to use any symbols of the spirit and truth of obedience. There are thousands of scriptures that tie doing with spirit and truth so those who say they are always separate simply cannot be correct. In the Old Testament we are told that love is the base of all law, and that all law comes from the one law to love the Lord. Yet, in the same scripture it tells us not to lie, and part of this base commandment. That is a commandment about something we actually do.

If these scripture truths give us an idea of how the Lord works in our world, it would have to follow that we could be baptized in a legalistic way, not including God and the spirit, and it wouldn't be true baptism, but at the same time if we turn down any physical symbol of baptism it would probably mean we turn down the spiritual baptism God asks of us.

 

[Simona25]

Please, tell us what is it that you believe to be saved? What is the formula?

To be saved from what? From what do you want Christ to save you? From what came Christ to save us?

 

[homwardbound]

Amen... exactly right. Jesus said those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom... and Why do you call me Lord and do not what I say ?

Thank you fro our answer, to know where you are coming from, Love you a God does, ad I pray for us both, trusting God to reveal, what is needed to be one o be revealed. Good to meet you

 

[homwardbound]

really ? I mean, I dont even know what to say here....

Seriously, if this is the answer to my original question, please... PLEASE take a look at your theology and ask yourself why you are believing it.

So do you believe that verse

John 14:6 [Full Chapter]
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

 

[IAm3rd]

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

There is only one Baptism, so which is it, water or the Spirit of God?

So, with all of the clear examples of water baptism in the new testament, you now deny that water baptism is for the Church... since there is "one baptism" ?
Do I really need to list all of said examples in scripture ? Is Peter not talking of water baptism when he compares it to the flood of Noah and say baptism now saves you..? is that not water ?

And no, your references to Jesus being baptized and " He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." is linked to the wrath of God in a lot of commentaries, because in the VERY NEXT VERSE it says " [SUP]12 [/SUP]His winnowing shovel[SUP][h][/SUP] is in His hand, and He will clear His threshing floor and gather His wheat into the barn. But the chaff He will burn up with fire that never goes out.”

 

[IAm3rd]

So do you believe that verse

John 14:6 [Full Chapter]
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

of course I believe it... what kind of question is that ? Thats why Paul says all who have been baptized have been baptized INTO CHRIST

 

[Kerry]

Jerimiah 14
10 Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins.
11 Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good.
12 When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.
13 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.
14 Then the Lord said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
15 Therefore thus saith the Lord concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.
16 And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.


Hmm. God will not accept their sacrifice. Hmm. makes you think. but He will accept the one that He gave, no matter what.

 

[homwardbound]

Scripture often speaks of obeying legalistically, or obeying by the letter of the law, only. It is clear that God does not accept this as true obedience. No where in the bible does it say we are forbidden to use any symbols of the spirit and truth of obedience. There are thousands of scriptures that tie doing with spirit and truth so those who say they are always separate simply cannot be correct. In the Old Testament we are told that love is the base of all law, and that all law comes from the one law to love the Lord. Yet, in the same scripture it tells us not to lie, and part of this base commandment. That is a commandment about something we actually do.

If these scripture truths give us an idea of how the Lord works in our world, it would have to follow that we could be baptized in a legalistic way, not including God and the spirit, and it wouldn't be true baptism, but at the same time if we turn down any physical symbol of baptism it would probably mean we turn down the spiritual baptism God asks of us.

1 John 3:24
[ The Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of Error ] Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1 John 4:6
We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

 

[IAm3rd]

Jerimiah 14
10 Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins.
11 Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good.
12 When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.
13 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.
14 Then the Lord said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
15 Therefore thus saith the Lord concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.
16 And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.


Hmm. God will not accept their sacrifice. Hmm. makes you think. but He will accept the one that He gave, no matter what.

yes, I think we all agree there. Maybe I'm missing your point ?

 

[Simona25]

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

Exactly. One baptism. So why did you split it in two and separated the water from the Holy Spirit?

Man has mixed the two Baptisms together the same a they mix Law literal law and grace together. And new wine, can't remain in old wineskins
Water Baptism does not save, Holy Spirit Baptism does

It is exactly the contrary. Baptism has always been one. It is relatively recent that some americans came up with this idea that water baptism is not a Holy Mystery, that it doesn't give you Christ, and that there exist a separate baptism from the one Christ and the apostles talked about.

 

[sacraig67]

It is baptism in the Spirit that's our saving grace. The blood of Christ is what baptized us. The water is a show of our obedience to him. To show our devotion to God, it doesn't save us.

 

[Simona25]

There are prefigurations of the baptism both in the Old Testament (the flood, the passing of the Red Sea etc.) and in the New Testament (the baptism of Saint John, the water from Bethesda that healed the sick man etc.); these are only shadows, Christ came and fulfilled the law and He established the Baptism with water and Holy Spirit (John 3,5: "unless one is born from water and spirit he will not enter the kingdom of God"). So, it is One Baptism. Not two: one with water and one with Holy Spirit (like the americans say), but only One.

 

[IAm3rd]

It is baptism in the Spirit that's our saving grace. The blood of Christ is what baptized us. The water is a show of our obedience to him. To show our devotion to God, it doesn't save us.

my original question still stands... where does the Bible say that ???
It is one thing to hold to man made doctrine, but quite another to back it with clear scripture.

 

[Simona25]

It is baptism in the Spirit that's our saving grace. The blood of Christ is what baptized us. The water is a show of our obedience to him. To show our devotion to God, it doesn't save us.

Everything that the church does is for our own salvation (which in my church means to unite with God, not to escape hell).

 

[homwardbound]

To be saved from what? From what do you want Christ to save you? From what came Christ to save us?

No one not one could ever save himself, so in due time, Father sent his only one Son that could and did love all perfectly, to kill our flesh attitudes of self-righteousness. Christ came to first fill the Law and Prophets' not destroy them but to fulfill them

Hebrews 9:15-17New King James Version (NKJV)[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
[h=3]The Mediator’s Death Necessary[/h][SUP]16 [/SUP]For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

He took all worldly sin away at the cross
Colossians 1:21-23New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled [SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— [SUP]23 [/SUP]if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

So since by his death we are made as Holy. And death does not save

Romans 5:10
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.


So here is your ? Do you believe God when Christ yelled from the cross it s finished? Did he do all you need for new life in him? Remember not saved by death, yet that was needed first to cleanse you, before Father could give you new life in Spirit and truth, by the resurrected Christ
I believe God all the way to home, praying you do as well

Christ is our pinch hitter as in baseball, and the ball is a grand slam.

 

[homwardbound]

So, with all of the clear examples of water baptism in the new testament, you now deny that water baptism is for the Church... since there is "one baptism" ?
Do I really need to list all of said examples in scripture ? Is Peter not talking of water baptism when he compares it to the flood of Noah and say baptism now saves you..? is that not water ?

And no, your references to Jesus being baptized and " He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." is linked to the wrath of God in a lot of commentaries, because in the VERY NEXT VERSE it says " [SUP]12 [/SUP]His winnowing shovel[SUP][h][/SUP] is in His hand, and He will clear His threshing floor and gather His wheat into the barn. But the chaff He will burn up with fire that never goes out.”

Noah and his family never got dunked

 

[homwardbound]

So, with all of the clear examples of water baptism in the new testament, you now deny that water baptism is for the Church... since there is "one baptism" ?
Do I really need to list all of said examples in scripture ? Is Peter not talking of water baptism when he compares it to the flood of Noah and say baptism now saves you..? is that not water ?

And no, your references to Jesus being baptized and " He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." is linked to the wrath of God in a lot of commentaries, because in the VERY NEXT VERSE it says " [SUP]12 [/SUP]His winnowing shovel[SUP][h][/SUP] is in His hand, and He will clear His threshing floor and gather His wheat into the barn. But the chaff He will burn up with fire that never goes out.”

Praying your eyes and ears get opened to truth, mine as well For I trust God to cause his children to stand as in Romans 14:4. So make no judgment in this matter, For I know for me it is Spirit Baptism that saves
John 3 pretty clear on this, yet only God reveal truth about this not me or anyone else

 

[Simona25]

It is not only the baptism that has been turned into a symbol, but everything. For the sects everything is symbolical. Baptism does not get them Christ neither does the Holy Communion. Christ is not mysteriously present in their churches. Their Christ is a Christ of sermons, a Christ of discourses, a Christ about which they sing, but a Christ that remains distant. A Christ that saves them from hell and that's all He does. He does not unite with them, He does not sanctify them which is why they do not honor the Theotokos and the saints. On another thread they even said that Theotokos has not been sanctified by bearing Christ in herself. They believe that Christ is closed in a tower and that He does not communicate His holiness to us, He does not sanctify us. So, you see? Their God remains distant. What a tragedy! In this logic, I understand why they refuse the baptism.

They have transformed the church (whose purpose is to get us in communion with God) into a religion (who saves people from hell and that's it).

 

[IAm3rd]

Noah and his family never got dunked

tell that to Peter... he's the one who made the correlation, not me.

 

[homwardbound]

Exactly. One baptism. So why did you split it in two and separated the water from the Holy Spirit?



It is exactly the contrary. Baptism has always been one. It is relatively recent that some americans came up with this idea that water baptism is not a Holy Mystery, that it doesn't give you Christ, and that there exist a separate baptism from the one Christ and the apostles talked about.

When did God's Spirit ever come to live n us, did God live in anyone before he cross of Son?

And does oil and water mix or can it?