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I must have told you a million times, Jesus comes after the Great Tribulation (of Israel) Mat 24:29-31. Further, Jesus comes to reign 1,000 years not to make a u-turn back to heaven. Jesus gathers His Elect Jews upon His return. These are the Jews who scattered at the Abomination of Desolation. See if you can follow the bouncing ball.
Mat 24 (truncated for effect):
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,.. [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains...[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation... [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened...[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven... [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels, and they will gather together His elect...
We see the Great Tribulation is the attack on Israel. We see those in Judea flee to the nations. We see the Tribulation end. We see Christ return. We see Christ gather, specifically, His Elect. The same ELECT 144K He is seen with on Mount Zion. There is no mention of a resurrection BEFORE THE Great Tribulation of Israel.
Mat 24 (truncated for effect):
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,.. [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains...[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation... [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened...[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven... [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels, and they will gather together His elect...
We see the Great Tribulation is the attack on Israel. We see those in Judea flee to the nations. We see the Tribulation end. We see Christ return. We see Christ gather, specifically, His Elect. The same ELECT 144K He is seen with on Mount Zion. There is no mention of a resurrection BEFORE THE Great Tribulation of Israel.
It is also Biblical. I study this stuff. There is usually a practical scientific answer for most Biblical miracles.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city.
Just how do you suppose God scattered them? He literally moved the ground under their feet. How do you supposed the Mayans were erecting pyramids similar to those in Egypt when they were half a world away? Its because they were literally split off from Egypt. How did people get scattered all over the globe? It happened in the Days of Peleg, 114 years after the Flood. The very name Peleg means to divide by water.
Genesis 10:25
To Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]These were the families of the sons of Noah, according to their generations, in their nations; and from these the nations were divided on the earth after the flood.
From when the Flood ended until about 114 years later, all the peoples were still living in relative close proximity, around 1500 miles in diameter. When the Land divided, people were scattered into each continent. There is nothing atheist or evolutionary about this. It is Biblical and geographical fact. India slammed into Asia making the Himalayas much taller.
There were mountains before the Flood and the Flood was global covering all Land, it just wasn't 29,000 ft deep to cover Everest.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city.
Just how do you suppose God scattered them? He literally moved the ground under their feet. How do you supposed the Mayans were erecting pyramids similar to those in Egypt when they were half a world away? Its because they were literally split off from Egypt. How did people get scattered all over the globe? It happened in the Days of Peleg, 114 years after the Flood. The very name Peleg means to divide by water.
Genesis 10:25
To Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]These were the families of the sons of Noah, according to their generations, in their nations; and from these the nations were divided on the earth after the flood.
From when the Flood ended until about 114 years later, all the peoples were still living in relative close proximity, around 1500 miles in diameter. When the Land divided, people were scattered into each continent. There is nothing atheist or evolutionary about this. It is Biblical and geographical fact. India slammed into Asia making the Himalayas much taller.
There were mountains before the Flood and the Flood was global covering all Land, it just wasn't 29,000 ft deep to cover Everest.
P
No matter how you explain away the account of the flood,you still have Noah and family lifted high into the atmosphere via the ark,which is a type of heaven,and RETURNING POST FLOOD,POST JUDGEMENT.
THEN THE OTHER PARALLEL OF LOT.
BOTH have a departure PRE JUDGEMENT.
YOU GUYS ARE CLUELESS that you NEED a post judgment DEPARTURE.
ARE YOU SERIOUS THAT YOU HAVE ANY TRACTION????
WE HAVE IN BOTH ACCOUNTS A PRE JUDGEMENT DEPARTURE.
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING POSTJUDGEMENT
NOTHING. NO DEPARTURE.
THEN THE OTHER PARALLEL OF LOT.
BOTH have a departure PRE JUDGEMENT.
YOU GUYS ARE CLUELESS that you NEED a post judgment DEPARTURE.
ARE YOU SERIOUS THAT YOU HAVE ANY TRACTION????
WE HAVE IN BOTH ACCOUNTS A PRE JUDGEMENT DEPARTURE.
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING POSTJUDGEMENT
NOTHING. NO DEPARTURE.
Moses covers the first 1600 years of earth history in just 10 chapters in Genesis. Can we agree he was short on detail? This is likely because the pre-Flood period was a prior earth age. The fact that the land mass was once a super continent is almost universally accepted, except by you perhaps.
Evolutionist believe it and most creationists believe it. The continents fit together like puzzle pieces.
So again, you have to put yourself back in time to 100 years after the Flood when there were limited numbers of people all living within perhaps 2,000 miles of each other. You had Nimrod at Babel and God was displeased with the attempt to build a tower that reached the heavens.
Genesis 10:25
To Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]These were the families of the sons of Noah, according to their generations, in their nations; and from these the nations were divided on the earth after the flood.
So when you read these verses what comes to your mind? You think the languages were the only thing God did to confuse them? It says "the earth was divided." It says the "nations were divided on the earth after the flood." What does that mean to you? I believe this was a rapid separation, not over the course of millions of years as these nitwit scientists say.
Of course there is marine fossils on mountain tops. My point is the tops of the mountains pre-flood were lower than some of them are today. As I said, all land was covered as scripture says:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered. [SUP]20 [/SUP]The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered...
15 cubits is only 22 feet. If Everest was at the same height pre-flood as it is today, you would need 29,029 + 22 = 29,051 feet of water over the entire planet. You would be looking at 5.5 miles of water above our current sea level.
The average depth of our oceans today is only 14,000 ft which is 2.65 miles deep and this is only over 70% of the earth's surface. Again, we would have needed 5.5 miles deep of water at sea level over 100% of the planet to cover today's Everest. This means you would need to have roughly 3 times more water than is currently presently in all the oceans to be on earth during Noah's Flood to do the job. So my question to you is where did all the water go? Where did 3X all of earth's oceans disappear to after the flood?
Evolutionist believe it and most creationists believe it. The continents fit together like puzzle pieces. So again, you have to put yourself back in time to 100 years after the Flood when there were limited numbers of people all living within perhaps 2,000 miles of each other. You had Nimrod at Babel and God was displeased with the attempt to build a tower that reached the heavens.
Genesis 10:25
To Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]These were the families of the sons of Noah, according to their generations, in their nations; and from these the nations were divided on the earth after the flood.
So when you read these verses what comes to your mind? You think the languages were the only thing God did to confuse them? It says "the earth was divided." It says the "nations were divided on the earth after the flood." What does that mean to you? I believe this was a rapid separation, not over the course of millions of years as these nitwit scientists say.
Of course there is marine fossils on mountain tops. My point is the tops of the mountains pre-flood were lower than some of them are today. As I said, all land was covered as scripture says:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered. [SUP]20 [/SUP]The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered...
15 cubits is only 22 feet. If Everest was at the same height pre-flood as it is today, you would need 29,029 + 22 = 29,051 feet of water over the entire planet. You would be looking at 5.5 miles of water above our current sea level.
The average depth of our oceans today is only 14,000 ft which is 2.65 miles deep and this is only over 70% of the earth's surface. Again, we would have needed 5.5 miles deep of water at sea level over 100% of the planet to cover today's Everest. This means you would need to have roughly 3 times more water than is currently presently in all the oceans to be on earth during Noah's Flood to do the job. So my question to you is where did all the water go? Where did 3X all of earth's oceans disappear to after the flood?
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You know that I love you brother Popeye, right? You keep me entertained.
As my last post indicated, the flood waters would of had to have been 29,051 ft to cover Everest. I am a nuclear engineer by trade so I am into the various sciences. I also love any show about Mt. Everest and my hat is off to anyone who climbed it, or attempted to climb it. I used to love to watch this show about Everest. Did you know that skilled climbers need to spend a few months acclimating to the altitude before they attempt the summit? They would first spend a few weeks at base camp around 19,000 ft. Many couldn't handle that altitude and would have to go home. Then they would go to advanced base camp (ABC) at 21,000 ft. For the next few weeks they would take trips to Camp 1 then return to ABC. Then they would go to Camp 2 then return to ABC. Finally they would make the trip to the top.
Once they entered the Death Zone, they would go on Oxygen and stay on it until they reached the top then descended back to a safe level. Very few people ever summit without O2s. Without oxygen even the most skilled and fit mountaineers cannot live more than 24 hours above 28,000 ft without O2s. According to you, Noah and his crew bounced around at over 29,000 ft with no oxygen for who knows how many days.
I traded my timeshare once and went to Breckenridge, CO. At just under 10,000 ft. I thought I was going to die after 5 days. I cut my trip short. I played college basketball and consider myself in above average shape and I couldn't hack 10,000 ft. How on earth could Noah and Co. do 29,000 ft with no O2s and no acclimating? Did God given them oxygen tanks?
As my last post indicated, the flood waters would of had to have been 29,051 ft to cover Everest. I am a nuclear engineer by trade so I am into the various sciences. I also love any show about Mt. Everest and my hat is off to anyone who climbed it, or attempted to climb it. I used to love to watch this show about Everest. Did you know that skilled climbers need to spend a few months acclimating to the altitude before they attempt the summit? They would first spend a few weeks at base camp around 19,000 ft. Many couldn't handle that altitude and would have to go home. Then they would go to advanced base camp (ABC) at 21,000 ft. For the next few weeks they would take trips to Camp 1 then return to ABC. Then they would go to Camp 2 then return to ABC. Finally they would make the trip to the top.
Once they entered the Death Zone, they would go on Oxygen and stay on it until they reached the top then descended back to a safe level. Very few people ever summit without O2s. Without oxygen even the most skilled and fit mountaineers cannot live more than 24 hours above 28,000 ft without O2s. According to you, Noah and his crew bounced around at over 29,000 ft with no oxygen for who knows how many days.
I traded my timeshare once and went to Breckenridge, CO. At just under 10,000 ft. I thought I was going to die after 5 days. I cut my trip short. I played college basketball and consider myself in above average shape and I couldn't hack 10,000 ft. How on earth could Noah and Co. do 29,000 ft with no O2s and no acclimating? Did God given them oxygen tanks?
Not sure I am following your argument here.
Yes in the next chapter Jesus gives the wedding analogy with the 10 virgins, 5 foolish who didn't bring enough oil to last for a longer than expected appearance of the groom, and 5 wise who brought enough anticipating that Jesus would come a little later than the foolish virgins thought. Which of us expects an earlier (pre-trib) appearance? You have less oil than me my friend because I anticipate a later return.
When He comes He comes to stay and those He gathers will reign with Him here on earth, not in heaven.
Yes in the next chapter Jesus gives the wedding analogy with the 10 virgins, 5 foolish who didn't bring enough oil to last for a longer than expected appearance of the groom, and 5 wise who brought enough anticipating that Jesus would come a little later than the foolish virgins thought. Which of us expects an earlier (pre-trib) appearance? You have less oil than me my friend because I anticipate a later return.
When He comes He comes to stay and those He gathers will reign with Him here on earth, not in heaven.
We agree the resurrection comes before any Rapture. The dead rise first, agreed?
And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...
So the question becomes, when is the resurrection?
John 6: [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” [SUP]44 [/SUP]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. [SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Mat 13: [SUP]39 [/SUP]The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age...
Seems pretty clear to me that the Resurrection is at the LAST DAY which is AKA the end of the Age. For your view to work, the Last Day must be before the Abomination of Desolation is seen. We know there are days after the A of D is seen as we still have the entire Tribulation to see. Explain to me how the last day can be before the A of D and Tribulation when there is more sinful days to come?
Game, Set, Match. In fact you were beaten so badly that you might not be asked to come back to compete next year.
And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...
So the question becomes, when is the resurrection?
John 6: [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” [SUP]44 [/SUP]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. [SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Mat 13: [SUP]39 [/SUP]The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age...
Seems pretty clear to me that the Resurrection is at the LAST DAY which is AKA the end of the Age. For your view to work, the Last Day must be before the Abomination of Desolation is seen. We know there are days after the A of D is seen as we still have the entire Tribulation to see. Explain to me how the last day can be before the A of D and Tribulation when there is more sinful days to come?
Game, Set, Match. In fact you were beaten so badly that you might not be asked to come back to compete next year
.
P
We agree the resurrection comes before any Rapture. The dead rise first, agreed?
And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...
So the question becomes, when is the resurrection?
John 6: [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” [SUP]44 [/SUP]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. [SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Mat 13: [SUP]39 [/SUP]The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age...
Seems pretty clear to me that the Resurrection is at the LAST DAY which is AKA the end of the Age. For your view to work, the Last Day must be before the Abomination of Desolation is seen. We know there are days after the A of D is seen as we still have the entire Tribulation to see. Explain to me how the last day can be before the A of D and Tribulation when there is more sinful days to come?
Game, Set, Match. In fact you were beaten so badly that you might not be asked to come back to compete next year.
And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...
So the question becomes, when is the resurrection?
John 6: [SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” [SUP]44 [/SUP]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. [SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Mat 13: [SUP]39 [/SUP]The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age...
Seems pretty clear to me that the Resurrection is at the LAST DAY which is AKA the end of the Age. For your view to work, the Last Day must be before the Abomination of Desolation is seen. We know there are days after the A of D is seen as we still have the entire Tribulation to see. Explain to me how the last day can be before the A of D and Tribulation when there is more sinful days to come?
Game, Set, Match. In fact you were beaten so badly that you might not be asked to come back to compete next year
.
That ELIMINATES ALL POSSIBILITY of a resurrection of 1 thes 4 AFTER THE GT.
Are you being obtuse,or do you really not comprehend the dead in Christ have to rise before the living?
The groom isn't going to the bride's house. The groom is setting up His house here on earth.
Lot, Noah all stayed on earth.
The 10 virgins work against you. Under your scenario, you are the one without enough oil. You think the groom comes earlier, pre-trib, when He really comes later. My lamp has extra oil because I expect the groom to be delayed. Sorry, you lose.
Lot, Noah all stayed on earth.
The 10 virgins work against you. Under your scenario, you are the one without enough oil. You think the groom comes earlier, pre-trib, when He really comes later. My lamp has extra oil because I expect the groom to be delayed. Sorry, you lose.
I understand that the dead rise first and have repeated it over and over. The resurrection is on the LAST DAY. Last, means last!!! There is no one rising when Christ comes. Christ gathers His ELECT. They are gathered to Him in Jerusalem. The return of Christ (one and only) which is AKA, the Second Coming comes after the Tribulation. The Great Tribulation again is the Islamic Northern Army attack on Israel led by the Man of Sin, Son of Perdition, King of the North.
If you study Mat 13 you will see full agreement. You have a gathering (not a rapture) of the wheat and tares. There is no resurrection mentioned in Mat 13 or Mat 24, correct? THIS SHOULD BE A BIG CLUE TO YOU.
Let's study Rev 14 together, shall we?
The chapter begins with the Lamb standing on Mt. Zion with the 144K. This is the 2nd coming. This cannot be your pre-trib rapture because according to you, Christ doesn't touch down for the rapture. According to my view this is the second coming, the angels were sent out to gather the ELECT from the 4 winds. Since this is the Second Coming, the Tribulation (Attack of Israel) is over!! Israel has been defeated and is populated with mostly Muslim (tares). Christ is now in Jerusalem with His 144K and they make quick work of the invaders.
Thus we are here in time and these verses go together:
Mat 24: [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rev 14: Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.
Christ has returned, the 144K have been gathered to Him. The Millennium Reign begins. Keep in mind, Christ must reign until He defeats all enemies.
1 Cor 15: [SUP]25 [/SUP]For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
During His 1,000 year reign, Christ wages war with all those who oppose Him. He defeats them, He is here for the destruction of Babylon/Islam. He warns the people not to support or worship Islam and to not take the mark of the northern army.
Rev 14:[SUP] 6 [/SUP]Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— [SUP]7 [/SUP]saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
See that? Christ is here and the gospel is being preached. This is part of His reigning. As He defeats, He preaches and teaches just as before winning souls.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”
Babylon ISLAM has fallen!! See that Brother? This agrees with the first verse of Rev 18. Christ announces the fall of Babylon. Babylon falls in one day. God's people are first warned to get out of the way then we see this.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
Now that the religion, Islam, has been utterly destroyed, we see it announced.
After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen...
There is only one "angel" who can illuminate the earth with His glory and that is Christ. He reigns for 1,000 years. We know little about this period other than what is in Eze 40-48 and a little at the end of Isaiah. We know that at the end of His reign, Satan is let loose, the nations are deceived again and God burns them on the spot. Then we have the rest of Rev 14. We have the harvest. First the good, then the bad as Rev 14 gives the order.
Now pay close attention. In Rev 14, the good is harvested first, right? But in Mat 13, the tares are first gathered. So, the order is reversed for after the millennium. Therefore the resurrection is just before the harvest of the good Rev 14:14-16. God comes down just as Paul teaches in 1 Thes 4 bringing all the souls in heaven to receive their resurrected bodies.
Death is the last thing Christ defeats. The resurrection comes after all who will die have died.
If you study Mat 13 you will see full agreement. You have a gathering (not a rapture) of the wheat and tares. There is no resurrection mentioned in Mat 13 or Mat 24, correct? THIS SHOULD BE A BIG CLUE TO YOU.
Let's study Rev 14 together, shall we?
The chapter begins with the Lamb standing on Mt. Zion with the 144K. This is the 2nd coming. This cannot be your pre-trib rapture because according to you, Christ doesn't touch down for the rapture. According to my view this is the second coming, the angels were sent out to gather the ELECT from the 4 winds. Since this is the Second Coming, the Tribulation (Attack of Israel) is over!! Israel has been defeated and is populated with mostly Muslim (tares). Christ is now in Jerusalem with His 144K and they make quick work of the invaders.
Thus we are here in time and these verses go together:
Mat 24: [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rev 14: Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.
Christ has returned, the 144K have been gathered to Him. The Millennium Reign begins. Keep in mind, Christ must reign until He defeats all enemies.
1 Cor 15: [SUP]25 [/SUP]For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
During His 1,000 year reign, Christ wages war with all those who oppose Him. He defeats them, He is here for the destruction of Babylon/Islam. He warns the people not to support or worship Islam and to not take the mark of the northern army.
Rev 14:[SUP] 6 [/SUP]Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— [SUP]7 [/SUP]saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
See that? Christ is here and the gospel is being preached. This is part of His reigning. As He defeats, He preaches and teaches just as before winning souls.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”
Babylon ISLAM has fallen!! See that Brother? This agrees with the first verse of Rev 18. Christ announces the fall of Babylon. Babylon falls in one day. God's people are first warned to get out of the way then we see this.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
Now that the religion, Islam, has been utterly destroyed, we see it announced.
After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen...
There is only one "angel" who can illuminate the earth with His glory and that is Christ. He reigns for 1,000 years. We know little about this period other than what is in Eze 40-48 and a little at the end of Isaiah. We know that at the end of His reign, Satan is let loose, the nations are deceived again and God burns them on the spot. Then we have the rest of Rev 14. We have the harvest. First the good, then the bad as Rev 14 gives the order.
Now pay close attention. In Rev 14, the good is harvested first, right? But in Mat 13, the tares are first gathered. So, the order is reversed for after the millennium. Therefore the resurrection is just before the harvest of the good Rev 14:14-16. God comes down just as Paul teaches in 1 Thes 4 bringing all the souls in heaven to receive their resurrected bodies.
Death is the last thing Christ defeats. The resurrection comes after all who will die have died.
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P
Never said rev 14 is the rapture.
And no ,rev 14 IS NOT the second coming.
How can you be so far off?
IT SAYS,they are before the throne in heaven. ( the 144k).
It is DURING THE GT.
Hands down,disproving your position.
Your last 4 or 5 posts are almost incoherent.
You are outta gas friend.
You are resorting to re interpreting clear facts IN REVELATION.
THAT IS FORBIDDEN.
And no ,rev 14 IS NOT the second coming.
How can you be so far off?
IT SAYS,they are before the throne in heaven. ( the 144k).
It is DURING THE GT.
Hands down,disproving your position.
Your last 4 or 5 posts are almost incoherent.
You are outta gas friend.
You are resorting to re interpreting clear facts IN REVELATION.
THAT IS FORBIDDEN.
LOL. The 144K are not in heaven my dear friend. Please read it again. The first verse tells you exactly where they are and who they are with.
Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.
I don't want to come across as condescending but if you were in grade school and your teacher was giving you a reading comprehension quiz on the above. How would you do? Here's a quiz and I'll give you the correct answer.
1) Where are the 144K in the above? On Mount Zion (which is in Jerusalem in case you didn't know)
2) Who are the 144K with in the above? Jesus, the Lamb of God
Your answer was in HEAVEN before the throne. XXXX WRONG.
You state they are in heaven during the Great Tribulation. Again, XXXX WRONG. Since Jesus is back on earth STANDING on Mount Zion, the Tribulation has to be over. Sorry Popeye, but you lose. Johnny do we have any nice parting gifts for dear Popeye?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps.
John hears God's voice from heaven. God has the voice of many waters which sounds like loud thunder, in case you weren't aware. AND John hears the sound of harpists playing their harps. Are you still with me or do we need another snap quiz? One more passage then we'll do a quiz.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders;
1) Who sang as if it was a new song?
If you answered the 144K you would be XXX WRONG.
That's right, the harpists are singing in heaven before the throne. The harpists don't need to learn the song, they already know it otherwise they wouldn't be able to sing it. Notice the semi colon separating the first part of the verse from the related second part of the verse?
and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.
The 144K LEARN THAT SONG from the harpists who were playing it in heaven. No one else can learn that heavenly song except for the 144K. Sorry Popeye, I was just having fun with you. It can be a difficult passage if you don't notice the semicolon in verse 3 and realize that the "they" singing in heaven are the harpists.
Again, since Jesus is on Mount Zion with the redeemed 144K the Tribulation is over. Again, the Tribulation is the attack on Israel.
Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.
I don't want to come across as condescending but if you were in grade school and your teacher was giving you a reading comprehension quiz on the above. How would you do? Here's a quiz and I'll give you the correct answer.
1) Where are the 144K in the above? On Mount Zion (which is in Jerusalem in case you didn't know)
2) Who are the 144K with in the above? Jesus, the Lamb of God
Your answer was in HEAVEN before the throne. XXXX WRONG.
You state they are in heaven during the Great Tribulation. Again, XXXX WRONG. Since Jesus is back on earth STANDING on Mount Zion, the Tribulation has to be over. Sorry Popeye, but you lose. Johnny do we have any nice parting gifts for dear Popeye?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps.
John hears God's voice from heaven. God has the voice of many waters which sounds like loud thunder, in case you weren't aware. AND John hears the sound of harpists playing their harps. Are you still with me or do we need another snap quiz
? One more passage then we'll do a quiz.[SUP]3 [/SUP]They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders;
1) Who sang as if it was a new song?
If you answered the 144K you would be XXX WRONG.
That's right, the harpists are singing in heaven before the throne. The harpists don't need to learn the song, they already know it otherwise they wouldn't be able to sing it. Notice the semi colon separating the first part of the verse from the related second part of the verse?
and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.
The 144K LEARN THAT SONG from the harpists who were playing it in heaven. No one else can learn that heavenly song except for the 144K. Sorry Popeye, I was just having fun with you. It can be a difficult passage if you don't notice the semicolon in verse 3 and realize that the "they" singing in heaven are the harpists.
Again, since Jesus is on Mount Zion with the redeemed 144K the Tribulation is over. Again, the Tribulation is the attack on Israel.
P
This is a miracle of a reach on your part.
They WERE REDEEMED ? ...WERE? That would place them in heaven.
Before the throne? That would place them in heaven.
Firstfruits? that would place them in heaven. (Harvest)
Jesus has already returned?... Then what is he doing on a cloud,(that would be not on earth),only a few sentences later?
Your erroneous interpretation would have the harvest of jews in rev 14,15,actually precede,or eliminate,the FIRSTFRUITS (the 144 k)
Stop trying to fit your mess into it. It is so absurd it is almost comical.
Oh,now for the final nail (cue trumpeters playing taps)
Heb 1218 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Oh,OK,so we are not speaking of an earthly location.
OK,what are we talking about?
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
See that? THE ZION OF HEAVEN.
You forgot,this is the new covenant.
The chapter even frames this dimension from the start. JESUS SEATED IN HEAVEN.
Now you combine all this,and it makes sense and perfect harmony,that the 144k are indeed in heaven.
Indisputably in heaven in rev 14.
You have no case. It even says Jesus is harvesting from the atmosphere only a few sentences from where you place him erroneously on earth.
They WERE REDEEMED ? ...WERE? That would place them in heaven.
Before the throne? That would place them in heaven.
Firstfruits? that would place them in heaven. (Harvest)
Jesus has already returned?... Then what is he doing on a cloud,(that would be not on earth),only a few sentences later?
Your erroneous interpretation would have the harvest of jews in rev 14,15,actually precede,or eliminate,the FIRSTFRUITS (the 144 k)
Stop trying to fit your mess into it. It is so absurd it is almost comical.
Oh,now for the final nail (cue trumpeters playing taps)
Heb 1218 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Oh,OK,so we are not speaking of an earthly location.
OK,what are we talking about?
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
See that? THE ZION OF HEAVEN.
You forgot,this is the new covenant.
The chapter even frames this dimension from the start. JESUS SEATED IN HEAVEN.
Now you combine all this,and it makes sense and perfect harmony,that the 144k are indeed in heaven.
Indisputably in heaven in rev 14.
You have no case. It even says Jesus is harvesting from the atmosphere only a few sentences from where you place him erroneously on earth.
P
Where is Jerusalem ? (sion)
Revelation 21King James Version (KJV)
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven,
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Oh,and BTW,WHERE IS THIS SION DURING THE GT? (BOTH THE TRIB AND WRATH,for you cliche centered folks,LOL)
IN HEAVEN.IT IS IN HEAVEN
Revelation 21King James Version (KJV)
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven,
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Oh,and BTW,WHERE IS THIS SION DURING THE GT? (BOTH THE TRIB AND WRATH,for you cliche centered folks,LOL)
IN HEAVEN.IT IS IN HEAVEN
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