Biblically has God ever used a woman to teach men His truths?

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Ariel82

Guest
Pretty sure he is talking about this:

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet." 1 Tm 2:12

The wording is almost identical.
Yep still thinks it talks about marriage, but can see how it can be debated both ways depending on which version of the Bible you use.

I find it ironic that in this verse it's NOT about marriage and husbands (most ignore verse 14 about childbearing between them., the use of the singular "she" and the plural "them" having babies). Then in the next chapter when they talk about deaconess, it IS about marriage and wives.

Yet folks claim to be reading in context because their English translation agrees with their denominational stance (which is why we have lots of translations, so folks can insert what they believe into God's words beyond any doubt of their flock that it's true, because most won't check other versions or the Greek or question what they already KNOW is their truth.)
 

Demi777

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2014
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The funnest part is that Adam failed first because he didnt protect eve in the first place. SO we arent just blamed for ''our'' mistakes but we are blamed for stuff that wasnt our fault XD

I hear that women were "disqualified" because Eve was tempted & failed first.

Funny..... because Christ freed us from the curse, yet women are still made to pay for it.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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Try focusing on the issues instead of insulting the person.




The Greek words for "a man", "he" and "his" are not found in this passage; they are inserted to make the passage flow in English. The verses about being the husband of one wife make perfect sense in context, in which polygamy was more common than today. Those males who aspire to eldership, if married, may have only one wife.

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Well, the greec word for man in Vers 2 is 200 times uses for man and 1 time for human. If you read the whole part Vers 1-13 you will see that it makes no sense to assume that a woman is meant also to be an Eldest/Leader/Presbyter/.
For to be woman to be a deacon we musst also see that she is not called s deacon, but a gyne, means mostly a married woman. To see here a deaconess is a assumption. also you can argue that a wifeof a deacon should have these attitudes.
What i am missing is a clear scripture ore historical proof that Woman were Eldest ore Deaconess in the early church.
Not one single clear example is to find. If you know soem let me know.
That Junia ore Junias was an eldest ore Apostle is also not clear! To make a biblical statement we should have more as base then assumptions which are rootet in human thoughts.



Commentaries aren't scripture, period. As to what Paul wrote, it makes great sense if he is addressing a proto-gnostic heresy, and little sense otherwise. There simply is no logic to the idea that women should be silent because Adam was formed before Eve. Your concluding sentence is speculative at best.

That is for your statment the same! If you read the text you cant come to a conclusion. as it was taught through the whole church historie and not only from RCC. All founders of the different denominations throug the reformation time had this view. Even they had a great knowledge in the greec language.
The view to let Woman led be as Pastor/Eldest is maby around 150 years old. in the mid of the 1800 years. Along with this came also Darwin with his evolution theoriy and also the historic critical theologie which denys that the Bibleis the word of God!
Should we through everything away what was before? Was everything false what was taught in the past, if it was based on the scripture.
Are we are today more wise to say what is wrong and right?
Of course God is useing woman for to spread the Gospel. We see in all the lady missionarys. Of course God is useing Woman to teach man, in the same way he uses us who are sinners and not living sinfree. This is no question!
I am shure that there are more blessings if we as man ore woman follow what the word of God teaches, then to create our own theories with our mind, because we think thats pleases the world.
Yes the most churches and denomination set in woman pastors. And you are called woman enemy if you dont do.
I would not change my mind because the mass is teaching it. The word of God is for me the base. And I cant find biblical foundet reasons to set Woman as Leaders/Pastors/Eldest into the church.
And as Lynn mentioned: The wife has many abilitys for to support the man ore manipulate the man!



More snarky, judgmental, ad hominem garbage. I suppose if you prefer to be ignored, you can continue this approach.


You are shure?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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Maybe the term 'pastor' (another word for Sheppard) comes from when Jesus told Peter to feed His sheep and lambs?

If so I don't think anyone objects women physically feeding people, though some will spit out any spiritual food and demand a man fed them instead.
Peter was an apostle, one of the chief ones.

So I do not think that todays so called "pastors" are like Peter or even should be.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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Yep still thinks it talks about marriage
So why do you think that women in the church's leadership is such a modern invention and was not present for 2000 years?
 
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Areil82

We are all Gods Children Acts 21:9 speaks of the 4 daughters Philip had and they all prophesied. There have been many of women who have spoken the word. Don't let man tell you any different. As the teachings of man would have you sit with your mouth shut.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
So why do you think that women in the church's leadership is such a modern invention and was not present for 2000 years?
That's the thing that is debated...were the women such as Priscilla and Anna the prophetess, leaders?

It depends on how you define leaders. I believe they were spiritual leaders and that the position of modern day pastors are an invention of men.

What were the office of Bishop and deacon back then?

Were women in the time of the Apostles exluded from the offices?

Depends on how you read the verse about "woman" deacons...are they wives or are they deaconess?

As for why women have been excluded from church leadership traditionally?

I believe that goes back to the Roman Emperor Constantine and when he changed Christianity from a religion of the oppressed to the religion of the oppressors, but that could be a whole another thread.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Peter was an apostle, one of the chief ones.

So I do not think that todays so called "pastors" are like Peter or even should be.
Not saying they should strive to BE apostles....anymore than people should seek to BE JESUS.

I have been told that verse is used to explain why men who lead the Church are called pastors. They seek to be LIKE Peter. Just as we Christians seek to be LIKE Jesus.
 
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And I'll worry about that when when I find out women can't heal people. And I won't worry too long, because God already used me to heal.
No man, and no women can heal anybody... Jesus is THE Healer!



male chauvinists don't like the truth on this subject!
Women who have been deceived by satan twist scripture so they can think they are like men.

God created men and women differently, so they have different roles.



The Greek words for "a man", "he" and "his" are not found in this passage;
You obviously don't know how to study the original greek and have been played by satan into scripture twisting.

Go back and look again darling... it's in there!

Bottom line is Jesus taught the Gospel of the Kingdom (Luke 16:16) and He had opportunity to have at least one women as a Dispicle... and He declined to do so.

There's a reason for that.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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... Women who have been deceived by satan twist scripture so they can think they are like men. ... Bottom line is Jesus taught the Gospel of the Kingdom (Luke 16:16) and He had opportunity to have at least one women as a Dispicle... and He declined to do so. There's a reason for that.
I'll go back to the Greek when I have time, which I don't right now. I will address your later point though. You are implying, without any actual Scripture to back you up, that Jesus didn't choose a female disciple because women twist the word of God. One principle of hermeneutics that you are overlooking is this: don't make doctrine from narrative.

So, what about women who haven't been deceived by satan, and what about men who have?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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That's the thing that is debated...were the women such as Priscilla and Anna the prophetess, leaders?

It depends on how you define leaders. I believe they were spiritual leaders and that the position of modern day pastors are an invention of men.

What were the office of Bishop and deacon back then?

Were women in the time of the Apostles exluded from the offices?

Depends on how you read the verse about "woman" deacons...are they wives or are they deaconess?

As for why women have been excluded from church leadership traditionally?

I believe that goes back to the Roman Emperor Constantine and when he changed Christianity from a religion of the oppressed to the religion of the oppressors, but that could be a whole another thread.
I mean - why the history of the Church never (or I do not know, there are always some extraordinary cases, right, but generally speaking) used women for leadership if it is so clearly in the Bible as some say?

And it really does not matter how I read "women" in some place in the Bible. I am talking about the church practice.

Its quite suspicious that so many Christians today think "yeah, this were female deacons, yeah, Priscilla this or that, its all so clear" but for 2000 years silence in the Church on this topic? And no, I dont take "male chauvinism" as the explanation why even the first churches in the first centuries nor reformation were not for female leaders.

You can use any example before the Emperor Constantine, outside the Bible where the places are disputed.
 
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wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
3,590
879
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Anyhow I made not clear what is from me and what from Dino. Here again:

Originally Posted by Dino246
Try focusing on the issues instead of insulting the person.

The Greek words for "a man", "he" and "his" are not found in this passage; they are inserted to make the passage flow in English. The verses about being the husband of one wife make perfect sense in context, in which polygamy was more common than today. Those males who aspire to eldership, if married, may have only one wife.

[/COLOR][/SIZE]
Wolfwint: Well, the greec word for man in Vers 2 is 200 times uses for man and 1 time for human. If you read the whole part Vers 1-13 you will see that it makes no sense to assume that a woman is meant also to be an Eldest/Leader/Presbyter/.
For to be woman to be a deacon we musst also see that she is not called s deacon, but a gyne, means mostly a married woman. To see here a deaconess is a assumption. also you can argue that a wifeof a deacon should have these attitudes.
What i am missing is a clear scripture ore historical proof that Woman were Eldest ore Deaconess in the early church.
Not one single clear example is to find. If you know soem let me know.
That Junia ore Junias was an eldest ore Apostle is also not clear! To make a biblical statement we should have more as base then assumptions which are rootet in human thoughts.



Commentaries aren't scripture, period. As to what Paul wrote, it makes great sense if he is addressing a proto-gnostic heresy, and little sense otherwise. There simply is no logic to the idea that women should be silent because Adam was formed before Eve. Your concluding sentence is speculative at best.

Wolfwint: That is for your statment the same! If you read the text you cant come to a conclusion. as it was taught through the whole church historie and not only from RCC. All founders of the different denominations throug the reformation time had this view. Even they had a great knowledge in the greec language.
The view to let Woman led be as Pastor/Eldest is maby around 150 years old. in the mid of the 1800 years. Along with this came also Darwin with his evolution theoriy and also the historic critical theologie which denys that the Bibleis the word of God!
Should we through everything away what was before? Was everything false what was taught in the past, if it was based on the scripture.
Are we are today more wise to say what is wrong and right?
Of course God is useing woman for to spread the Gospel. We see in all the lady missionarys. Of course God is useing Woman to teach man, in the same way he uses us who are sinners and not living sinfree. This is no question!
I am shure that there are more blessings if we as man ore woman follow what the word of God teaches, then to create our own theories with our mind, because we think thats pleases the world.
Yes the most churches and denomination set in woman pastors. And you are called woman enemy if you dont do.
I would not change my mind because the mass is teaching it. The word of God is for me the base. And I cant find biblical foundet reasons to set Woman as Leaders/Pastors/Eldest into the church.
And as Lynn mentioned: The wife has many abilitys for to support the man ore manipulate the man!

More snarky, judgmental, ad hominem garbage. I suppose if you prefer to be ignored, you can continue this approach.
Wolfwint: Are you shure?
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
i always thought it strange that of the 12 apostles only 3 or 4 are ever talked about. then you have Mary who the bible talkes alot about, which is strange being as she is just one of many that followed Jesus. why focus so much on her, what made her different, almost as if she was an apostle.

then you have a thousand years later da vinci painting the last supper. 12 apostles in that pic, eleven men and one woman. davinci was one of the most intelligent minds ever, far ahead of his time, yet concerning Jesus and the 12 we are to believe Leo is very stupid thinking one was a woman.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
i always thought it strange that of the 12 apostles only 3 or 4 are ever talked about. then you have Mary who the bible talkes alot about, which is strange being as she is just one of many that followed Jesus. why focus so much on her, what made her different, almost as if she was an apostle.




then you have a thousand years later da vinci painting the last supper. 12 apostles in that pic, eleven men and one woman. davinci was one of the most intelligent minds ever, far ahead of his time, yet concerning Jesus and the 12 we are to believe Leo is very stupid thinking one was a woman.
I think its because Mary liked to photo bomb.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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To me, there's more than meets the eye when looking at women holding offices inside the church.

For one, in the beginning in the NT church, there were no "offices" at all. That's only in the KJV. Just like bishop & bishoprick is only in the KJV. The same thing for the "office" of deacon.

"Offices" in the church are man-made. Since they are, so are those rules keeping women out.

There is an "eldership" in scripture.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
I mean - why the history of the Church never (or I do not know, there are always some extraordinary cases, right, but generally speaking) used women for leadership if it is so clearly in the Bible as some say?

And it really does not matter how I read "women" in some place in the Bible. I am talking about the church practice.

Its quite suspicious that so many Christians today think "yeah, this were female deacons, yeah, Priscilla this or that, its all so clear" but for 2000 years silence in the Church on this topic? And no, I dont take "male chauvinism" as the explanation why even the first churches in the first centuries nor reformation were not for female leaders.

You can use any example before the Emperor Constantine, outside the Bible where the places are disputed.
Why do the oppressed people's history never taught in the schools?

Found this article and I can find more or you can research the references,

The Neglected History of Women in the Early Church | Christian History

A number of women served as leaders of the house churches that sprang up in the cities of the Roman Empire—the list includes Priscilla, Chloe, Lydia, Apphia, Nympha, the mother of John Mark, and possibly the “elect lady” of John’s second epistle.

In the 2nd century, Clement of Alexandria wrote that the apostles were accompanied on their missionary journeys by women who were not marriage partners, but colleagues, “that they might be their fellow-ministers in dealing with housewives. It was through them that the Lord’s teaching penetrated also the women’s quarters without any scandal being aroused. We also know the directions about women deacons which are given by the noble Paul in his letter to Timothy.”

Until the Middle Ages, the identity of Junia as a female apostle was unquestioned. Later translators attempted to change the gender by changing the name to the masculine Junias. But such a name is unknown in antiquity; and there is absolutely no literary, epigraphical or papyrological evidence for it.


Paul also mentions Phoebe in Romans 16, “a deacon of the church at Cenchreae.” He calls her a prostatis or overseer. This term in its masculine form, prostates, was used later by the Apostolic Fathers to designate the one presiding over the Eucharist. And Paul uses the same verb, the passive of ginomai (to be or become), as he uses in Colossians 1:23: “I was made a minister.”

In the passive, the verb sometimes indicated ordination or appointment to an office. Thus one might legitimately translate Paul’s statement about Phoebe: “For she has been appointed, actually by my own action, an officer presiding over many.” The church in Rome is asked to welcome her and assist her in the church’s business.

About 112 A.D., the Roman governor Pliny the Younger detailed his efforts to cope with the nascent church in Bithynia. He had found it necessary to interrogate the leaders, two slave women called ministrae, or deacons. These women apparently followed in the tradition of Phoebe.

As Clement of Alexandria made mention of Paul’s reference to deaconesses in 1 Timothy 3:11, so Origen commented on Phoebe, the deacon that Paul mentions in Romans 16:1–2:

“This text teaches with the authority of the Apostle that even women are instituted deacons in the Church. This is the function which was exercised in the church of Cenchreae by Phoebe, who was the object of high praise and recommendation by Paul… And thus this text teaches at the same time two things: that there are, as we have already said, women deacons in the Church, and that women, who by their good works deserve to be praised by the Apostle, ought to be accepted in the diaconate.”

Dionysius of Alexandria, who died in 264 A.D., described a martyr as “the most holy eldress Mercuria” and another as “a most remarkable virgin eldress Apollonia.”

The walls of the Roman catacombs bear pictures showing women in authoritative stances, with their hands raised in the posture of a bishop.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Romans 16:7 ►
New International Version
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
Why do the oppressed people's history never taught in the schools?

Found this article and I can find more or you can research the references,

The Neglected History of Women in the Early Church | Christian History

A number of women served as leaders of the house churches that sprang up in the cities of the Roman Empire—the list includes Priscilla, Chloe, Lydia, Apphia, Nympha, the mother of John Mark, and possibly the “elect lady” of John’s second epistle.

In the 2nd century, Clement of Alexandria wrote that the apostles were accompanied on their missionary journeys by women who were not marriage partners, but colleagues, “that they might be their fellow-ministers in dealing with housewives. It was through them that the Lord’s teaching penetrated also the women’s quarters without any scandal being aroused. We also know the directions about women deacons which are given by the noble Paul in his letter to Timothy.”

Until the Middle Ages, the identity of Junia as a female apostle was unquestioned. Later translators attempted to change the gender by changing the name to the masculine Junias. But such a name is unknown in antiquity; and there is absolutely no literary, epigraphical or papyrological evidence for it.


Paul also mentions Phoebe in Romans 16, “a deacon of the church at Cenchreae.” He calls her a prostatis or overseer. This term in its masculine form, prostates, was used later by the Apostolic Fathers to designate the one presiding over the Eucharist. And Paul uses the same verb, the passive of ginomai (to be or become), as he uses in Colossians 1:23: “I was made a minister.”

In the passive, the verb sometimes indicated ordination or appointment to an office. Thus one might legitimately translate Paul’s statement about Phoebe: “For she has been appointed, actually by my own action, an officer presiding over many.” The church in Rome is asked to welcome her and assist her in the church’s business.

About 112 A.D., the Roman governor Pliny the Younger detailed his efforts to cope with the nascent church in Bithynia. He had found it necessary to interrogate the leaders, two slave women called ministrae, or deacons. These women apparently followed in the tradition of Phoebe.

As Clement of Alexandria made mention of Paul’s reference to deaconesses in 1 Timothy 3:11, so Origen commented on Phoebe, the deacon that Paul mentions in Romans 16:1–2:

“This text teaches with the authority of the Apostle that even women are instituted deacons in the Church. This is the function which was exercised in the church of Cenchreae by Phoebe, who was the object of high praise and recommendation by Paul… And thus this text teaches at the same time two things: that there are, as we have already said, women deacons in the Church, and that women, who by their good works deserve to be praised by the Apostle, ought to be accepted in the diaconate.”

Dionysius of Alexandria, who died in 264 A.D., described a martyr as “the most holy eldress Mercuria” and another as “a most remarkable virgin eldress Apollonia.”

The walls of the Roman catacombs bear pictures showing women in authoritative stances, with their hands raised in the posture of a bishop.
Thanks. Christianitytoday is for the registered members only, so I cant read the article.

Do you know what would be the best? If you just give me the references to the first Church historians or other works so I can read it myself and decide if it is what the article wants it to be :)

For example Clement of Alexandria you mentioned - what work, which chapter etc.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
She is making a key distinction between "teaching" in the 1Tm and what Priscilla did (she was only explaining).

5:28

And I think its good a girl says that so that she can not be a "male chauvinist" :D

[video=youtube;cKeddYHvk94]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKeddYHvk94[/video]