Book of Revelation - Early Date or Late Date?
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Hello brother,
Rev.1
[1] The Revelation of (FROM) Jesus Christ, that GOD gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants
things which must shortly come to pass; (Jesus was revealed as the God of Israel by the Apostles)
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
The LORD has showed me thse things:
Here is the easiest clue.
We Know that Jesus was crucified just outside of the city of Jerusalem.
Rev.11
[7] And when they shall have finished their testimony,
the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them,
and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city>> ???
which spiritually (metaphorically) is called Sodom and Egypt,
where also our Lord was crucified >> Jerusalem.
Jesus told about the destruction and it happened about 40 years later.
That is not saying that he raptured anyone...
Gentiles have to get used to the fact that the LORD is always with his people,
even with the Apostles, as they prached...
This SECOND coming must another Gentile Philosopher thing.
Jesus is even NOW with his sheep.
Rev.1
[1] The Revelation of (FROM) Jesus Christ, that GOD gave unto him,
to shew unto his servants
things which must shortly come to pass; (Jesus was revealed as the God of Israel by the Apostles)
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
The LORD has showed me thse things:
Here is the easiest clue.
We Know that Jesus was crucified just outside of the city of Jerusalem.
Rev.11
[7] And when they shall have finished their testimony,
the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them,
and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city>> ???
which spiritually (metaphorically) is called Sodom and Egypt,
where also our Lord was crucified >> Jerusalem.
Jesus told about the destruction and it happened about 40 years later.
That is not saying that he raptured anyone...
Gentiles have to get used to the fact that the LORD is always with his people,
even with the Apostles, as they prached...
This SECOND coming must another Gentile Philosopher thing.
Jesus is even NOW with his sheep.
he does make an error on his website tho,,,he quotes from "mark but gives the reference from matt.",,,,,,he also imo,,bases his research of the fire of Nero(ad64) as the beginning point,,,,,researching the scriptures he provided led me to find his misquote(human error),,,,,,,and that he began at the time the fire started(ad64),,,so it was after this point that the revolt of the Jews began and the order to punish the Christians for the fire was implemented.
the stater coins the Jews printed at the beginning of the revolt set the timing for their refusal to accept the money of the Romans and began to fulfill the prophecies of,,,"this gen. shall not pass" as pertaining to the Jews,,,the Nazarene's as they were referred to then moved north of Jerusalem to the established churches because they understood what was about to take place in Jerusalem.
as if i combined the early date theory with the late date i considered them both,,and realized that peter and the ear being cut off was a key to narrow it(when it was written) down from the other direction,,,,this is how i derived ad67-69,,,but to resolve this fine point Nero and the fire,when the actual persecution of the Christians began. so both the revolt of the Jews and the persecution of the Christians were at the same time-frame. ,,,
First Jewish Revolt coinage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia as we know from scripture the Jews could not take tithes(money)into the temple so they set up moneychangers tables which exchanged the coins(with pagan god images on them) for acceptable money to pay tithes with. Jesus turned these moneychangers tables over and called them thieves because they charged a profit for exchanging the currency(as the Jews who were scattered in other nations traveled to Jerusalem to the feast),and is why they ask Christ "is it lawful(law of Moses) for us to pay tithes unto Cesar?",,,
this seems to go nowhere as to the money and the year of the revolt,,,but Barnabas,hippolitus ect.(these books may have been translated out of accuracy i know) are reciting these very things when they are pointing out the over-throw of Jerusalem because of their disobedience Jerusalem and the temple were removed,,,,and john and the 7 churches were reading the Revelations and watching it unfold,,,,
the stater coins the Jews printed at the beginning of the revolt set the timing for their refusal to accept the money of the Romans and began to fulfill the prophecies of,,,"this gen. shall not pass" as pertaining to the Jews,,,the Nazarene's as they were referred to then moved north of Jerusalem to the established churches because they understood what was about to take place in Jerusalem.
as if i combined the early date theory with the late date i considered them both,,and realized that peter and the ear being cut off was a key to narrow it(when it was written) down from the other direction,,,,this is how i derived ad67-69,,,but to resolve this fine point Nero and the fire,when the actual persecution of the Christians began. so both the revolt of the Jews and the persecution of the Christians were at the same time-frame. ,,,
First Jewish Revolt coinage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia as we know from scripture the Jews could not take tithes(money)into the temple so they set up moneychangers tables which exchanged the coins(with pagan god images on them) for acceptable money to pay tithes with. Jesus turned these moneychangers tables over and called them thieves because they charged a profit for exchanging the currency(as the Jews who were scattered in other nations traveled to Jerusalem to the feast),and is why they ask Christ "is it lawful(law of Moses) for us to pay tithes unto Cesar?",,,
this seems to go nowhere as to the money and the year of the revolt,,,but Barnabas,hippolitus ect.(these books may have been translated out of accuracy i know) are reciting these very things when they are pointing out the over-throw of Jerusalem because of their disobedience Jerusalem and the temple were removed,,,,and john and the 7 churches were reading the Revelations and watching it unfold,,,,
The main reasons I am more convinced of the early date is the fact that only seven churches in Asia were addressed rather than nine. There is only a very small window of time in which this would have been possible. Also the statement made concerning which Ceaser was reigning during the time of John's revelation. There are a number of other internal temporal indicators but I really did not want to get into developing all of those arguments.
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I believe it was whenever John was sent to Patmos. John was exiled to the Isle of Patmos. John was blind and a scribe most likely wrote what John saw in a vision. So even though he was blind, he saw. I found several sites saying that John was exiled around 95 A.D.
(I put this in just for those interested in this type of info)
The information about John’s exile to Patmos comes from Polycarp, an early second-century bishop who knew John personally. Polycarp was martyred about a.d. 155, after a lifetime of Christian service. Irenaeus, who had earlier heard Polycarp’s powerful testimony of John and his writings, preserved the story. (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 5.20.4–7.)
Irenaeus wrote about a.d. 175. Of John’s Revelation he says, “That was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign.” (Against Heresies, 5.30.3.) Domitian, emperor of Rome, was assassinated in a.d. 96, after building an unenviable record of unmerited executions and banishments. Included among his victims were his near relatives, Flavius Clemens, whom he executed, and Flavius’s wife Domitilla, whom he banished to the island of Pandeteria, off the Naples coast. Their crime was religious belief—possibly Christianity. “The charge brought against them both was that of atheism, a charge on which many others who drifted into Jewish ways were condemned.” (Dio Cassius, Roman History, 67.14.1–3, Loeb Classical Library.) This charge of atheism, of course, may simply refer to their turning from the Roman gods, perhaps to the Christian God.
Irenaeus, from Polycarp, dates the book of Revelation shortly before a.d. 96. Domitian’s predecessor deported “some to the most desolate of the islands” (Suetonius, Titus 8), and Domitian apparently followed that example. Patmos certainly qualifies as desolate. The island is butterfly shaped, some ten miles long and stretching to five miles wide on the upper and lower portions. It is barren, rocky, and steep. Wells are scarce, and until sea-conversion technology water was captured in basins through rainfall. The arid climate presently supports a mere 2,500 people, and the local guide book gives the “census” of a little over 11,000 trees. The experience of being on Patmos today is a reminder of the possibility of great spirituality under adverse conditions. If John was not imprisoned, he would have barely existed, working in the chill or hot seasons. There is no evidence that forced labor was required, for living in bleak isolation was considered punishment enough.
After Domitian’s assassination, Nerva became emperor. Nerva’s reign brought an unseen change, for he “restored the exiles.” (Dio Cassius, Roman History, 68.1.2.) After John’s release, according to Irenaeus, he labored in the Ephesian area “up to the times of Trajan.” (Against Heresies, 2.22.5.) Trajan began his rule in a.d. 98.
(I put this in just for those interested in this type of info)
The information about John’s exile to Patmos comes from Polycarp, an early second-century bishop who knew John personally. Polycarp was martyred about a.d. 155, after a lifetime of Christian service. Irenaeus, who had earlier heard Polycarp’s powerful testimony of John and his writings, preserved the story. (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 5.20.4–7.)
Irenaeus wrote about a.d. 175. Of John’s Revelation he says, “That was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign.” (Against Heresies, 5.30.3.) Domitian, emperor of Rome, was assassinated in a.d. 96, after building an unenviable record of unmerited executions and banishments. Included among his victims were his near relatives, Flavius Clemens, whom he executed, and Flavius’s wife Domitilla, whom he banished to the island of Pandeteria, off the Naples coast. Their crime was religious belief—possibly Christianity. “The charge brought against them both was that of atheism, a charge on which many others who drifted into Jewish ways were condemned.” (Dio Cassius, Roman History, 67.14.1–3, Loeb Classical Library.) This charge of atheism, of course, may simply refer to their turning from the Roman gods, perhaps to the Christian God.
Irenaeus, from Polycarp, dates the book of Revelation shortly before a.d. 96. Domitian’s predecessor deported “some to the most desolate of the islands” (Suetonius, Titus 8), and Domitian apparently followed that example. Patmos certainly qualifies as desolate. The island is butterfly shaped, some ten miles long and stretching to five miles wide on the upper and lower portions. It is barren, rocky, and steep. Wells are scarce, and until sea-conversion technology water was captured in basins through rainfall. The arid climate presently supports a mere 2,500 people, and the local guide book gives the “census” of a little over 11,000 trees. The experience of being on Patmos today is a reminder of the possibility of great spirituality under adverse conditions. If John was not imprisoned, he would have barely existed, working in the chill or hot seasons. There is no evidence that forced labor was required, for living in bleak isolation was considered punishment enough.
After Domitian’s assassination, Nerva became emperor. Nerva’s reign brought an unseen change, for he “restored the exiles.” (Dio Cassius, Roman History, 68.1.2.) After John’s release, according to Irenaeus, he labored in the Ephesian area “up to the times of Trajan.” (Against Heresies, 2.22.5.) Trajan began his rule in a.d. 98.
1. Five have fallen. In other words, five kings have come and gone - Julius (59 - 44 BC), Augustus (27 BC - 14 AD), Tiberius (14-37), Caligula (37-41), and Claudius (41-54).
2. One now is - Nero (54-68)
3. The other has not yet come and when he comes, he will remain only a little while - Galba who reigned only seven months from (68-69). It is also noteworthy to remember that this began a time of brief reigns with Otho reigning only 3 months from January 15 to April 16, 69 AD and Vitellius who reigned only 8 months from April 16 to December 22, 69 AD. After this, Vespasian assumes the throne and reigns for 10 years from December of 69 to 79 AD. It was under his reign that Rome began to stabilize politically.
We find in Nero and Galba the terrible persecutors of the Christians at whose hand Peter and Paul were martyred. Nero commanded Vespasian to destroy Jerusalem. Historically, Nero is the one that persecuted Christians beyond all comparison. John's banishment to Patmos was itself a result of the great persecution of Nero. The apostle Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the Nero at Rome in AD 67.
2. One now is - Nero (54-68)
3. The other has not yet come and when he comes, he will remain only a little while - Galba who reigned only seven months from (68-69). It is also noteworthy to remember that this began a time of brief reigns with Otho reigning only 3 months from January 15 to April 16, 69 AD and Vitellius who reigned only 8 months from April 16 to December 22, 69 AD. After this, Vespasian assumes the throne and reigns for 10 years from December of 69 to 79 AD. It was under his reign that Rome began to stabilize politically.
We find in Nero and Galba the terrible persecutors of the Christians at whose hand Peter and Paul were martyred. Nero commanded Vespasian to destroy Jerusalem. Historically, Nero is the one that persecuted Christians beyond all comparison. John's banishment to Patmos was itself a result of the great persecution of Nero. The apostle Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the Nero at Rome in AD 67.
For me it comes done to one thing really. If Revelation was written at a later date why doesn't the New Testament mention one word about Jesus prediction of Jerusalem and the Temple being destroyed as having happened? Why is that totally absent? John was one of the four disciples that Jesus talked to about not one stone being left upon another,and yet John does NOT ever say that that was fulfilled already. John NEVER says it's a REBUILT temple. That is assumed because of the late dating and that is being read into the text,but John never once says that Jesus prophecy of Jerusalem and the temple HAS ALREADY been fulfilled
Yes. You make a very good point.
One of the most compelling proofs of the early date is the fact that the Jewish temple was still standing at the time John wrote Revelation, 11:1-2. In verse one, John is given a measuring rod and told to go and measure the temple and count the worshipers there. You can't measure something that is not there.
"And there was given me a reed, like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."
1. In verse two, John is told not to measure the outer court because it has been given to the Gentiles and they will trample on it for 42 months which is also 1260 days or 3 ½ years. Isn't it amazing that history tells us that this is exactly how long the Romans trampled the holy city of Jerusalem from the spring of 67AD to its destruction in the early fall of 70 AD? This is a very compelling argument.
2. How do we know that this is speaking of Herod's temple and not the Church? This passage calls to mind Jesus words in Luke 21:20-24. Notice that Jesus told the disciples that they would see this event. They had asked Him about their temple in verse 5 and Jesus told them it would be destroyed before their generation passed away, 32. In verse 24 Jesus says, "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles." This is the same thing John was told in Revelation 11:2. So, John is reminding the Church that the time of which Jesus had spoken in Luke 21 would soon be upon them.
One of the most compelling proofs of the early date is the fact that the Jewish temple was still standing at the time John wrote Revelation, 11:1-2. In verse one, John is given a measuring rod and told to go and measure the temple and count the worshipers there. You can't measure something that is not there.
"And there was given me a reed, like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."
1. In verse two, John is told not to measure the outer court because it has been given to the Gentiles and they will trample on it for 42 months which is also 1260 days or 3 ½ years. Isn't it amazing that history tells us that this is exactly how long the Romans trampled the holy city of Jerusalem from the spring of 67AD to its destruction in the early fall of 70 AD? This is a very compelling argument.
2. How do we know that this is speaking of Herod's temple and not the Church? This passage calls to mind Jesus words in Luke 21:20-24. Notice that Jesus told the disciples that they would see this event. They had asked Him about their temple in verse 5 and Jesus told them it would be destroyed before their generation passed away, 32. In verse 24 Jesus says, "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles." This is the same thing John was told in Revelation 11:2. So, John is reminding the Church that the time of which Jesus had spoken in Luke 21 would soon be upon them.
What's so odd when people try to date Revelation as the late date,all four of the Gospels all point to things Jesus predicted about His death and resurrection,and they pointed out they were fulfilled. And they all pointed out Old Testament prophecies that too were fulfilled. Why then wouldn't they mention one thing about the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem if it had ALREADY HAPPENED? Why leave those things being fulfilled out? It makes no sense whatsoever. The only way it makes sense is that it HADN'T happened yet and was again another warning of what was to come shortly.
IMO, the temple and altar mentioned in Revelation are symbols of the true temple in heaven. Those who worship there do so in spirit and truth. The court outside the temple and Jerusalem symbolize those who worship GOD in name only. The former are numbered (measured) unto salvation; the latter to a different fate that is symbolized by being trampled underfoot by the nations.
I would not say absolutely that the temple mentioned is not figurative but, my question would be by what rule of hermeneutics do we assume this to be symbolic? In deciding whether something in scripture is to be understood as actual or figurative we must accept it as actual unless there is something in the text itself that demands otherwise. I can see nothing in this text that would suggest that the temple is anything other than Herod's temple.
I see nothing in the spirit that says it's Herod's temple. Rules of hermeneutics are guidelines (not laws), and can only go so far because all scripture is spiritually discerned.
The book of Revelation is an immensely symbolic book. Jesus said many years before its authorship that the time had already come that GOD's true worshipers would do so in spirit and truth completely independent of a specific physical location; an obsolete concept that was the sine qua non of the nation of Israel. So in that regard I can see a Jewish unbeliever writing an apocalyptic book with references to a physical temple, but not a Jewish believer in Christ.
btw a physical temple seems implausible because it says that the temple is measured whereas Jerusalem and the courtyard are not; the implication being that one is spared, the other not. All was destroyed and trampled under foot by the Romans in 70 AD.
The book of Revelation is an immensely symbolic book. Jesus said many years before its authorship that the time had already come that GOD's true worshipers would do so in spirit and truth completely independent of a specific physical location; an obsolete concept that was the sine qua non of the nation of Israel. So in that regard I can see a Jewish unbeliever writing an apocalyptic book with references to a physical temple, but not a Jewish believer in Christ.
btw a physical temple seems implausible because it says that the temple is measured whereas Jerusalem and the courtyard are not; the implication being that one is spared, the other not. All was destroyed and trampled under foot by the Romans in 70 AD.
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Because the text implies such.
And a measuring rod similar in appearance to a staff was given to me, saying, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship in it. And leave out the courtyard outside of the temple, and do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for forty two months. Revelation 11:1-2
The courtyard and the city are left off from being measured, and are to be trampled. The temple, altar and those who worship therein are measured. The implication is that those things which are measured are not trampled. This makes perfect sense as it is a symbolic way of describing GOD's preservation of those who are his, i.e. those who measure up to his standard.
This is one reason I don't believe it is referring to Jerusalem's destruction in 70 AD. The verse would not make any sense if that were the case.
And a measuring rod similar in appearance to a staff was given to me, saying, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship in it. And leave out the courtyard outside of the temple, and do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for forty two months. Revelation 11:1-2
The courtyard and the city are left off from being measured, and are to be trampled. The temple, altar and those who worship therein are measured. The implication is that those things which are measured are not trampled. This makes perfect sense as it is a symbolic way of describing GOD's preservation of those who are his, i.e. those who measure up to his standard.
This is one reason I don't believe it is referring to Jerusalem's destruction in 70 AD. The verse would not make any sense if that were the case.