Book of Revelation - Early Date or Late Date?

[oldhermit]

Not sure that's definitive. The word seems to indicate that he came to be on Patmos.

I am not sure that it is definitive either. It was simply an observation.

 

[BananaPie]

If he is on Patmos at the time of the writing this would be hard to explain linguistically.

Indeed. I see your point. It would be funny for me to say, "I was in the US... ...in the Spirit on the Lord's Day" when I'm currently in the US.

Now think about how we linguistically tell a dream to someone the following morning. When we tell a dream, we usually speak in the past without changing our current space in time.

In John's case, he wasn't dreaming, but he was actually having a holy visitation from the Lord Jesus and consequently from God's Angels.

Would you agree that God is not hindered by any human? It's just as easy for God to have provided writing material to John for immediate dictation to accurately record all the visions granted him.

 

[iamsoandso]

[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]This is all certainly possible but why would he use the past tense in 1:9 regarding his time at Patmos?If he is on Patmos at the time of the writing this would be hard to explain linguistically.

this is also my point about the tense of the wording in rev.1;19,,,"hast seen,are,which shall be",,,could also raise the point that if he had already seen the destruction of Jerusalem it would be possible then the record found in the text regarding the destruction are things he had seen past tense.

so if we consider rev.1;19 any point in time could be the beginning point,,,so if it for instance was ad72 when he received the Revelation then the text would still read the same,,,

(1)=ad64,,,,saw Christ crucified past tense,,,he see's Nero present tense,,,see's the destruction of Jerusalem future tense
(2) if written in ad71,,then he saw the Crucifixion,reign of Nero,destruction of jer. past tense,,,see's himself at patmos,and others in tribulation present tense,,,and and the rise of a beast/two horned beast future tense.

so of the three tenses mentioned in rev. 1;19 (the present tense as to john when he received the rev.) seems to be the only tangible way to narrow down "when",,,and from their if we see in the text when was present tense to john then we can see past tense and future from that exact point in time.

"one is",,,as an example,,another 7 churches instead of 9 so we know it's after the earthquake,and after laodiicea is rebuilt,,,ect. but the present tense things to john at the time he received this.,,,,,now the beast in rev.17;8 that was and is not shall ascend out of the bottomless pit (future tense at the time john received rev.),,,so also in the present tense when he received this rev. the beast(that was an is not),,,,in the (present tense) at the reception of rev by john is in the bottomless pit,,,

so to resolve the identity of the beast that was and was not that will ascend(rev.13;12) will also reveal "when",because we are given all three tenses surrounding this beast and told that he ,,,"was not" at the time john received the Revelations,,,but im as curious as you as to what others have also seen in regards to this so i will watch for a while,,,,,

 

[oldhermit]

What was about to be revealed or unveiled about Jesus was his direct involvement in time. The events of the first century were not to be viewed as just a set of random occurrences. These events were the result of the direct involvement of Jesus in the world of men. In Revelation, human history is represented as something that would be manipulated and organized by God. In man's world of economics, politics, international affairs, war, religion, sociology, etc..., everything in the world was about to feel the effects of Jesus presence in world affairs. The revelation to John closes the distance between the natural world and the unseen world. God is in control!

 

[iamsoandso]

yes the judgement diffidently began there,1st peter 4;17,,,as he said it began at us,and in rev. ch.2-3 he directly spoke to "us" the churches,,and then those who obeyed "not the gosphul",,,

 

[iamsoandso]

so as for the beast that was and was not,,yet will ascend out of the pit who do you think this applies to?,,,why i ask this is not to change the o.p. but seeing we are given the fact that this beast is at the time the rev. is given to john "in the pit,rev.17;8",,,then it would give support as to the dating of the writing of Revelations,,,,,

 

[oldhermit]

so as for the beast that was and was not,,yet will ascend out of the pit who do you think this applies to?,,,why i ask this is not to change the o.p. but seeing we are given the fact that this beast is at the time the rev. is given to john "in the pit,rev.17;8",,,then it would give support as to the dating of the writing of Revelations,,,,,

The Beast seems to be the Roman empire of that period.

 

[iamsoandso]

The Beast seems to be the Roman empire of that period.

but rev.17;8 states that the beast that was was not(so did not exist,that is it was in the pit),,,and we know that Rome was in existence and it's ruler was named Nero at the time rev. was written,,,,,

 

[Hoffco]

The discussion of the early date of Rev. is in vain, because John WAS on the island of Patmos, during the vision, It was after 0r during his exile to the island, what was the date of his excile? about 96 ad, so the Rev. could not be earltier.! RIGHT? Hoffco

 

[iamsoandso]

but rev.17;8 states that the beast that was was not(so did not exist,that is it was in the pit),,,and we know that Rome was in existence and it's ruler was named Nero at the time rev. was written,,,,,

i ask my own self these questions across my life,,,,,,was it written before the destruction or after?,,,first i'd say before,then i had to account for one set of scriptures,,,then i'd say no!,after,,then i'd have to account for another set of scriptures,,,,,,,

 

[iamsoandso]

The discussion of the early date of Rev. is in vain, because John WAS on the island of Patmos, during the vision, It was after 0r during his exile to the island, what was the date of his excile? about 96 ad, so the Rev. could not be earltier.! RIGHT? Hoffco

it depends,,,Jesus told them of their destruction,,peter told them that the judgement began at the house of god,but not hearing the first set of prophecies,john was told he must prophecy again,,,,,,

 

[iamsoandso]

The discussion of the early date of Rev. is in vain, because John WAS on the island of Patmos, during the vision, It was after 0r during his exile to the island, what was the date of his excile? about 96 ad, so the Rev. could not be earltier.! RIGHT? Hoffco

so what makes you convinced that his exile was ad96,,,,tell us why you think that like the op ask,,,,,,,

 

[Hoffco]

The most favored times of the Rapture are 4:1 or 6:12; therefore every thing after the rapture is yet future. Nero is not named in the book ; 5 kings have been, and one was then ruling from Rome and one or two?? are not YET, but will come in the future, from John's day; the 7th who is the 8th is to come after John's day. 17:10 fff NOW how lone after John?? +A LONG TIME, BECAUSE the 7th is to go to perdition just before Jesus returnsto rule. Please read carefully!! Love to all Hoffco

 

[iamsoandso]

The most favored times of the Rapture are 4:1 or 6:12; therefore every thing after the rapture is yet future. Nero is not named in the book ; 5 kings have been, and one was then ruling from Rome and one or two?? are not YET, but will come in the future, from John's day; the 7th who is the 8th is to come after John's day. 17:10 fff NOW how lone after John?? +A LONG TIME, BECAUSE the 7th is to go to perdition just before Jesus returnsto rule. Please read carefully!! Love to all Hoffco

well weve discussed that already in the first 3 pages,,,,,,,,

 

[oldhermit]

but rev.17;8 states that the beast that was was not(so did not exist,that is it was in the pit),,,and we know that Rome was in existence and it's ruler was named Nero at the time rev. was written,,,,,

"The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction." There is a great deal more behind this than just what you see in Rev. 17. Perhaps some day we can take to time to examine this a little more closely.

 

[oldhermit]

The discussion of the early date of Rev. is in vain, because John WAS on the island of Patmos, during the vision, It was after 0r during his exile to the island, what was the date of his excile? about 96 ad, so the Rev. could not be earltier.! RIGHT? Hoffco

No, he was exiled by Nero who died in 68 AD.

 

[oldhermit]

The most favored times of the Rapture are 4:1 or 6:12; therefore every thing after the rapture is yet future. Nero is not named in the book ; 5 kings have been, and one was then ruling from Rome and one or two?? are not YET, but will come in the future, from John's day; the 7th who is the 8th is to come after John's day. 17:10 fff NOW how lone after John?? +A LONG TIME, BECAUSE the 7th is to go to perdition just before Jesus returns to rule. Please read carefully!! Love to all Hoffco

Rev. 17:11 says that the eighth is "of" the seventh. Literally, "out of the seventy." Vespasian was the seventh Emperor of Rome and Titus was the son who became Emperor upon his fathers death. What seem hard for me to understand this the parts that Otho and Vitellius played in all of this because they reigned for only a matter of months each. They are not even considered.

 

[iamsoandso]

"The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction." There is a great deal more behind this than just what you see in Rev. 17. Perhaps some day we can take to time to examine this a little more closely.

yes i agree Egypt,Assyria,Babylon, Persia,Greece,Rome,,,,if we adhere to the nations who ruled the earth as "beast" were all still in existence in ad64- ad71 were all still in existence(so were not in the pit),,,,,,if we consider the 5 Cesar's of rome and the 6th,,,then we must consider if one of the first 5 are the man of sin/image resurrected from death=wounded by the sword then we will need to account for the scripture's concerning the fact that "those who were beheaded for their testimony cannot be preceeded by the second resurection",,,

so the man of sin,,,the beast wounded unto death,,,he cannot ascend into the earth(return from being wounded unto death) until after those are resurrected from the grave at Christ return,,,,that is if we deduce that he is "an man",,,now again if we come to the mind of the beast that was and was not is an "kingdom",,,,well all of the nations that ruled the earth from the beginning till the time john received the Revelations were still in the earth and were not in the bottomless pit as in rev.17;8,,,,,,,

 

[oldhermit]

Would you agree that God is not hindered by any human? It's just as easy for God to have provided writing material to John for immediate dictation to accurately record all the visions granted him.

Of course, and he may very well have. Paul wrote many letters from various prisons.

 

[oldhermit]

yes i agree Egypt,Assyria,Babylon, Persia,Greece,Rome,,,,if we adhere to the nations who ruled the earth as "beast" were all still in existence in ad64- ad71 were all still in existence(so were not in the pit),,,,,,if we consider the 5 Cesar's of rome and the 6th,,,then we must consider if one of the first 5 are the man of sin/image resurrected from death=wounded by the sword then we will need to account for the scripture's concerning the fact that "those who were beheaded for their testimony cannot be preceeded by the second resurection",,,

You must first understand what is meant by the first and second resurrections.

so the man of sin,,,the beast wounded unto death,,,he cannot ascend into the earth(return from being wounded unto death) until after those are resurrected from the grave at Christ return,,,,that is if we deduce that he is "an man",,,now again if we come to the mind of the beast that was and was not is an "kingdom",,,,well all of the nations that ruled the earth from the beginning till the time john received the Revelations were still in the earth and were not in the bottomless pit as in rev.17;8,,,,,,,

We know from John's letters of first and second John that whoever the man of sin was, he was someone who was known by his readers in the first century and they also knew who or what was restraining him.