Book of Revelation - Early Date or Late Date?

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oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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#41
Because the text implies such.

​And a measuring rod similar in appearance to a staff was given to me, saying, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship in it. And leave out the courtyard outside of the temple, and do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for forty two months. Revelation 11:1-2​


The courtyard and the city are left off from being measured, and are to be trampled. The temple, altar and those who worship therein are measured. The implication is that those things which are measured are not trampled. This makes perfect sense as it is a symbolic way of describing GOD's preservation of those who are his, i.e. those who measure up to his standard.

This is one reason I don't believe it is referring to Jerusalem's destruction in 70 AD. The verse would not make any sense if that were the case.
The courtyard is not measured because it is occupied by the Roman armies - "given to the Gentiles." We cannot deny that both the city and the temple were destroyed in the same siege. The reason the temple is being measured is for judgment. Israel is being judged.

This introduces another argument. That of identifying the "woman" of chapters 17 and 18.
The following material is from an unknown source.
John saw a "woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus," 17:6. The woman had this name written on her forehead: "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH," 17:5. The angel said that "the woman" was "that great city," 17:18 in whom "was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth," 18:24. Then John wrote, "Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her… Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all," 18:20, 21. So who was this "woman," this "great city?"

John gave us a clue in Revelation 11:8, where he wrote, "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." This shows us that John was referring to the Jerusalem of his day. To prove this assertion, John wrote that Sodom also used as a figurative name. That means it does not tell us the actual name of the city but its spiritual condition. Once more, in letting the Bible interpret itself, we find this is a reference to Jerusalem. In Isaiah, chapter one, after declaring that he had a "vision…concerning Judah and Jerusalem", Isaiah wrote, "Hear the words of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom." In Jeremiah 23:14, because of the adulterous prophets, God said that Jerusalem and her inhabitants were "all of them unto me as Sodom."

In Luke 13:33-34, Jesus said, “Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem. “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!" Then, in Matthew 23:29-37, Jesus blasted the Jews of his day for killing the prophets and the apostles. He declared that they are the children of their fathers who also killed the prophets. Then in verse 32, Jesus said that they would complete the sin that their fathers started. But the most crucial evidence is found in verse 35, where Jesus said, "upon you (i.e., the Jews of His day) may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on the earth." Then He said, "I tell you the truth, all of these things will happen to you people who are living now. Jerusalem, Jerusalem! You kill the prophets and stone to death those who are sent to you," 36-37. In both passages, Jesus told the Jews of His day that they were guilty of "all the righteous blood shed upon the earth" (see also Acts 7:51-52). Therefore, since both of these passages deal with the same crime and the same judgment, the "great city" of Revelation must be the Jerusalem of Christ's generation. So, Revelation was written during a time Jewish persecution upon Christians which had to be prior to 70 AD.
 
B

BananaPie

Guest
#42
Well, OldHermit, where I come from, it's taught & believed that the Book of Revelation was written before the destruction of the Temple of 70 AD. Here are a few reason why we hold to such belief.

1. All the Apostles of Jesus Christ did not survive the evils of Nero (64 AD - 68 AD) nor Vespasian (69 AD - 79 AD).

2. It's likely that Luke was the last eyewitness surviver of the whole bunch of saints. I don't believe it to be John, as the Catholics proclaim. I don't believe any of the evil Roman Emperors would spare the life of John to the ripe old age of 96 after serving time at Patmos.

3. James, Peter & John were an evangelistic team in the Jerusalem area (Acts 4, Galatians 2:9), while Luke travelled with Paul's team (Colossians 4).

4. According to Acts 21:18, it records that Paul & team meet up with James in Jerusalem "and all the elders were present." It's reasonable to believe that John was among those elders present. The saints, as a unit, had not been imprisoned yet.

5. The City of Jerusalem was taken captive by Roman troops 3 years prior to the destruction of the Temple. It's during this time that I believe the saints were martyred, and Paul was taken prisoner to Rome. I believe it's during this time that John is also taken prisoner to Patmos where he eventually writes The Apocalypse.

6. I believe John died in prison on the Isle of Patmos.
 
Oct 12, 2012
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#44
The Book of Revelation was probably written in the 40'sad. So i say, early date!
Many of these people knew how to read, write and speak 2, 3, or 4 languages.
These people were excited, living these things out in real time,
and would have been writing some of these things down, and carrying them to the next town.
It would not have even crossed their minds to save these passages,
because people would not believe all of this without actual proof!
If the writer of Revelation was the Apostle John,
there is not much said about him in Acts.
 

oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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#45
Well, OldHermit, where I come from, it's taught & believed that the Book of Revelation was written before the destruction of the Temple of 70 AD. Here are a few reason why we hold to such belief.

I'm afraid I was not taught this. I had to come to these conclusions on my own.

1. All the Apostles of Jesus Christ did not survive the evils of Nero (64 AD - 68 AD) nor Vespasian (69 AD - 79 AD).

2. It's likely that Luke was the last eyewitness surviver of the whole bunch of saints. I don't believe it to be John, as the Catholics proclaim. I don't believe any of the evil Roman Emperors would spare the life of John to the ripe old age of 96 after serving time at Patmos.
Unfortunately, all we have to go in here is historical tradition.

3. James, Peter & John were an evangelistic team in the Jerusalem area (Acts 4, Galatians 2:9), while Luke travelled with Paul's team (Colossians 4).

4. According to Acts 21:18, it records that Paul & team meet up with James in Jerusalem "and all the elders were present." It's reasonable to believe that John was among those elders present. The saints, as a unit, had not been imprisoned yet.
That is quite possible since Ephesus was John's base of operation.

5. The City of Jerusalem was taken captive by Roman troops 3 years prior to the destruction of the Temple. It's during this time that I believe the saints were martyred, and Paul was taken prisoner to Rome. I believe it's during this time that John is also taken prisoner to Patmos where he eventually writes The Apocalypse.

6. I believe John died in prison on the Isle of Patmos.

It is unlikely that John died on Patmos because in chapter 10:11 we have this statement made to John by the angel "You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings." If Revelation was written in AD 95-96, John would have been over 90 years old and it would have been very unlikely that he would have been able to travel and preach the gospel to the various "nations and…many kings." However, if Revelation were written in the early to mid 60's, John would have been in his mid 60's and at that age and his traveling would have been much more feasible.
 
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iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
7,857
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#46
The courtyard is not measured because it is occupied by the Roman armies - "given to the Gentiles." We cannot deny that both the city and the temple were destroyed in the same siege. The reason the temple is being measured is for judgment. Israel is being judged.

This introduces another argument. That of identifying the "woman" of chapters 17 and 18.
The following material is from an unknown source.
John saw a "woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus," 17:6. The woman had this name written on her forehead: "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH," 17:5. The angel said that "the woman" was "that great city," 17:18 in whom "was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth," 18:24. Then John wrote, "Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her… Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all," 18:20, 21. So who was this "woman," this "great city?"

John gave us a clue in Revelation 11:8, where he wrote, "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." This shows us that John was referring to the Jerusalem of his day. To prove this assertion, John wrote that Sodom also used as a figurative name. That means it does not tell us the actual name of the city but its spiritual condition. Once more, in letting the Bible interpret itself, we find this is a reference to Jerusalem. In Isaiah, chapter one, after declaring that he had a "vision…concerning Judah and Jerusalem", Isaiah wrote, "Hear the words of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom." In Jeremiah 23:14, because of the adulterous prophets, God said that Jerusalem and her inhabitants were "all of them unto me as Sodom."

In Luke 13:33-34, Jesus said, “Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem. “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!" Then, in Matthew 23:29-37, Jesus blasted the Jews of his day for killing the prophets and the apostles. He declared that they are the children of their fathers who also killed the prophets. Then in verse 32, Jesus said that they would complete the sin that their fathers started. But the most crucial evidence is found in verse 35, where Jesus said, "upon you (i.e., the Jews of His day) may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on the earth." Then He said, "I tell you the truth, all of these things will happen to you people who are living now. Jerusalem, Jerusalem! You kill the prophets and stone to death those who are sent to you," 36-37. In both passages, Jesus told the Jews of His day that they were guilty of "all the righteous blood shed upon the earth" (see also Acts 7:51-52). Therefore, since both of these passages deal with the same crime and the same judgment, the "great city" of Revelation must be the Jerusalem of Christ's generation. So, Revelation was written during a time Jewish persecution upon Christians which had to be prior to 70 AD.
Richard Anthony from ecclesia.org is the source but following the links on that page under "greetings" there is an article explaining that no "one author" wrote the original text,,,,,
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#47
It is unlikely that John died on Patmos because in chapter 10:11 we have this statement made to John by the angel "You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings." If Revelation was written in AD 95-96, John would have been over 90 years old and it would have been very unlikely that he would have been able to travel and preach the gospel to the various "nations and…many kings." However, if Revelation were written in the early to mid 60's, John would have been in his mid 60's and at that age and his traveling would have been much more feasible.
John didn't have to go anywhere to prophesy to nations and many kings. He wrote the prophecy, the rest is history. Many kings and nations have heard his prophecy without him having to lift a finger.
 
B

BananaPie

Guest
#48
It is unlikely that John died on Patmos because in chapter 10:11 we have this statement made to John by the angel "You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings."
Good insight, OldHermit.

Have you considered that "You must prophesy again" may also apply to that evil government system in the future in light of Chapter 11?


OldHermit said:
If Revelation was written in AD 95-96, John would have been over 90 years old and it would have been very unlikely that he would have been able to travel and preach the gospel to the various "nations and…many kings." True.

However, if Revelation were written in the early to mid 60's, John would have been in his mid 60's and at that age and his traveling would have been much more feasible. True.
How about this scenario.

John & James are persecuted by king Agrippa (Herod's grandson Agrippa reigned 41AD - 44AD).
James is martyred (Acts 12:1-2), while... here's my speculation... John is sent to prison at Patmos. The Apocalypse is written, and after the death of Agrippa, John is released from prison. John writes the 3 Epistles; then some years later, John is martyred by Nero's troops.

What do you think? :)
 
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oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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#49
Richard Anthony from ecclesia.org is the source but following the links on that page under "greetings" there is an article explaining that no "one author" wrote the original text,,,,,
Thank you for the name. I had emailed them asking for the name of the person who had written this material but I never got a response.
 

oldhermit

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#50
John didn't have to go anywhere to prophesy to nations and many kings. He wrote the prophecy, the rest is history. Many kings and nations have heard his prophecy without him having to lift a finger.
Yes, that is true.
 

oldhermit

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#51
Good insight, OldHermit.

Have you considered that "You must prophesy again" may also apply to that evil government system in the future in light of Chapter 11?
I no not think this has any application beyond the first century.

How about this scenario.
John & James are persecuted by king Agrippa (Herod's grandson Agrippa reigned 41AD - 44AD).
James is martyred (Acts 12:1-2), while... here's my speculation... John is sent to prison at Patmos. The Apocalypse is written, and after the death of Agrippa, John is released from prison. John writes the 3 Epistles; then some years later, John is martyred by Nero's troops.

What do you think?
First of all, James' death was the result of the Christian by the Jews not the Romans. John was exiled during the Roman persecution of the Christians. Also, there is not evidence either biblically nor historically to suggest that John was ever martyred.
 

oldhermit

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#52
I no not think this has any application beyond the first century.


First of all, James' death was the result of the Christian by the Jews not the Romans. John was exiled during the Roman persecution of the Christians. Also, there is not evidence either biblically nor historically to suggest that John was ever martyred.
This should have read "James' death was the result of the Christian persecution by the Jews not the Romans." Sorry about the type-o
 
B

BananaPie

Guest
#53
I do not think [Chapter 11] has any application beyond the first century. Ah! Now you're talkin' stuff. :D Do you believe that the entire woes in the Book of Revelation has any application beyond the 1st Century?
OldHermit said:
First of all, James' death was the result of the Christian ...being persecuted :)... by the Jews not the Roman. True.
John was exiled during the Roman persecution of the Christians. True.
Also, there is not evidence either biblically nor historically to suggest that John was ever martyred... I just realized this.
All along I've been of the opinion that John died in prison at Patmos.
 

oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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#54
Ah! Now you're talkin' stuff. :D Do you believe that the entire woes in the Book of Revelation has any application beyond the 1st Century?
LOL. Perhaps we can discus this in another thread.
 

oldhermit

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#55
All along I've been of the opinion that John died in prison at Patmos.
According to "Church tradition" and historical sources close to the first century, John was released from Patmos under Domition and returned to Ephesus where he eventually died of natural causes.
 

oldhermit

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#56
I might point out that there in one piece of internal evidence that would suggest that John wrote Revelation after his release from Patmos.

"I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus."

John regards his time at Patmos as something that was in his past. While at Patmos, he receives this revelation. It is possible that soon after he receives this revelation he is released and upon his release, he then records what he was command to “write in a book... ."
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#57
I might point out that there in one piece of internal evidence that would suggest that John wrote Revelation after his release from Patmos.

"I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus."

John regards his time at Patmos as something that was in his past. While at Patmos, he receives this revelation. It is possible that soon after he receives this revelation he is released and upon his release, he then records what he was command to “write in a book... ."
Not sure that's definitive. The word seems to indicate that he came to be on Patmos.
 
B

BananaPie

Guest
#59
"I, John,... ...was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus."

John regards his time at Patmos as something that was in his past. While at Patmos, he receives this revelation. It is possible that soon after he receives this revelation he is released and upon his release, he then records what he was command to “write in a book... ."
Yes, that is possible. Nonetheless, speaking in past tense does not make allowance for how much time had passed. John could have continued in prison for several months or years giving him plenty of time to request writing materials from saints visiting him. Wouldn't you agree it's all speculation at this point? :)

On the other hand, I do see what you're referring to regarding Domitian.
 

oldhermit

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#60
Yes, that is possible. Nonetheless, speaking in past tense does not make allowance for how much time had passed. John could have continued in prison for several months or years giving him plenty of time to request writing materials from saints visiting him. Wouldn't you agree it's all speculation at this point? :)

This is all certainly possible but why would he use the past tense in 1:9 regarding his time at Patmos? If he is on Patmos at the time of the writing this would be hard to explain linguistically.