Calvinism Refuted

[faroukfarouk]

God has made the first move. He added a law. And it is that law you've got to have the faith to obey or not be declared righteous by God. There are no exceptions regarding that God does not respect persons. The Calvinist, however, insist that he is an exception.

...the first move in grace, when we did not deserve it and when we were not remotely inclined to obey Him.

 

[cxjonz]

...the first move in grace, when we did not deserve it and when we were not remotely inclined to obey Him.

So? Is God not sovereign enough to make an addition to the law in regard to the sin of murdering his only begotten son as an "act (law) of righteousness"? Rom. 5:18

 

[Yahshua]

1. Calvinism isn't a denomination.
Calvinism is a theological view which can be held by people in virtually any denomination, and which is usually associated with reformed theology.

Well it sure denominated (i.e. "split into a unique unit") from the main body...

2. Although I disagree with Calvinism, there is NOT coming a time when they "must choose" to change ANYTHING!. They believe in salvation by grace through faith... they are saved, and they are my brothers and sisters in Christ. When we all get to heaven, God can straighten out all of our little differences in theology.

In red; I agree. Luckily that's not what I wrote. What I wrote was...

"There is - however - coming a time when many must choose to accept the pure bread over the leavened bread."

If you're going to comment on my post fairly, please read what *I* wrote, not what you imagine you see.

I've said this often in many posts on many threads that God does not change. It is interesting however that many who agree with what you've posted would also argue that certain things God has ordained from the foundation of the world - such as his law, for instance - have actually been changed none the less. That's actually "SOMETHING" changed. Notwithstanding, like you I'm also a proponent of a changeless God; changeless times, changeless laws, and a changeless gospel that Christ himself preached.

 

[newbirth]

If you say Calvanism in its entirety is bunko just because it paints salvation as exclusive you have to ignore God's sovereignty and place the entire power unto salvation into the hands of sinners incapable of having the mind of Christ. No bones about it, there is no good thing done by a man apart from what God foreordained for that person to do. Without Christ weare dead in our sin, which means GOD has to make the first move.

why study Calvin when you have the scripture.
[h=3]1 Corinthians 5:6[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

 

[maxwel]

Well it sure denominated (i.e. "split into a unique unit") from the main body...



In red; I agree. Luckily that's not what I wrote. What I wrote was...

"There is - however - coming a time when many must choose to accept the pure bread over the leavened bread."

If you're going to comment on my post fairly, please read what *I* wrote, not what you imagine you see.

I've said this often in many posts on many threads that God does not change. It is interesting however that many who agree with what you've posted would also argue that certain things God has ordained from the foundation of the world - such as his law, for instance - have actually been changed none the less. That's actually "SOMETHING" changed. Notwithstanding, like you I'm also a proponent of a changeless God; changeless times, changeless laws, and a changeless gospel that Christ himself preached.

No worries.
Let me clarify things.

When, referring to Calvinists, you say,
There is - however - coming a time when many must choose to accept the pure bread over the leavened bread.
Please tell us SPECIFICALLY what you mean by that, as it relates to Calvinists, because they are the topic.


As you refer to Calvinists:
1. What SPECIFICALLY is this leaven of the Calvinist?
2. What SPECIFICALLY is the pure bread they must accept which they don't currently have?
3. Why is it, SPECIFICALLY, that they "must" choose to make this change?

 

[posthuman]

A Calvinist can't surrender. For the Calvinist judges that it is everyone else who is totally depraved, but he has only judged himself by the measure he has used.

quoting from The Calvinist Corner :

"
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).
"

i don't see anything about "errybody but me is depraved"
you must be talking about apostate Calvanists.

you know, now that you bring it up, that attitude that "everyone is wrong but me" is fairly prevalent among all peoples. sort of re-inforces the "total depravity" thing IMO.

i won't say "i'm a Calvanist" or "i'm an _______" for that matter, but total depravity, i'm 100% on board with.

 

[cxjonz]

quoting from The Calvinist Corner :

"
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).
"

i don't see anything about "errybody but me is depraved"
you must be talking about apostate Calvanists.

you know, now that you bring it up, that attitude that "everyone is wrong but me" is fairly prevalent among all peoples. sort of re-inforces the "total depravity" thing IMO.

i won't say "i'm a Calvanist" or "i'm an _______" for that matter, but total depravity, i'm 100% on board with.

"depravity" "total depravity" are terms used in the scripture to ONLY describe false teachers. Those terms are not descriptive of mankind in general according to the scripture. 'i won't say 'i'm a Calvanist" or i'm an ------------"for that matter, but total depravity, i'm 100% on board with." Is nothing other than a Calvanist describing himself no matter what he says he isn't. It only takes one little pinch of leaven to destroy the whole lump.
"For it is not those who just hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13, and you are 100% opposed against that apostle's doctrine of salvation also.

 

[posthuman]

"depravity" "total depravity" are terms used in the scripture to ONLY describe false teachers. Those terms are not descriptive of mankind in general according to the scripture. 'i won't say 'i'm a Calvanist" or i'm an ------------"for that matter, but total depravity, i'm 100% on board with." Is nothing other than a Calvanist describing himself no matter what he says he isn't. It only takes one little pinch of leaven to destroy the whole lump.
"For it is not those who just hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13, and you are 100% opposed against that apostle's doctrine of salvation also.

OK, take it from Jesus Himself then:

“No one is good except God alone."
(Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19)

i notice that He doesn't say "no one is good except God and people that aren't false teachers"

 

[Yahshua]

No worries.
Let me clarify things.

When, referring to Calvinists, you say,
There is - however - coming a time when many must choose to accept the pure bread over the leavened bread.
Please tell us SPECIFICALLY what you mean by that, as it relates to Calvinists, because they are the topic.


As you refer to Calvinists:
1. What SPECIFICALLY is this leaven of the Calvinist?
2. What SPECIFICALLY is the pure bread they must accept which they don't currently have?
3. Why is it, SPECIFICALLY, that they "must" choose to make this change?

Let me start from the point of my original post.

I can almost guarantee that there are a few deceptions wormed into every denomination by the adversary...but to call one denomination out as Satanic is a little unfair.

This was a general statement I was making to say that ALL denominations have a little leaven in their daily bread.

Using the definition Christ gives his apostles that "leaven bread" represents doctrinal errors (which may or may not include blatant fabrications & lies), I went on to explain that even these doctrinal errors that separate the body of Christ were - in fact - prophesied in Christ's ministry: the feeding of the multitude and again in his passion.

The fact of the matter is, Christ's body was prophesied to be broken for the salvation of many.

Again, the body of Christ was broken (into many denominations) for the salvation of many. Like with the bread that fed the multitude, every time the body was broken it grew; multiplied. And also in fulfillment of the feeding of that multitude, the bread that was broken & shared was "leavened bread" (not unleavened, pure bread)...but wasn't it more important at the time to *keep people alive* (i.e. to "save" them)?

The key elements I pointed out were:

1) the bread that was broken to feed many was leavened bread (not unleavened bread)
2) the bread that was broken multiplied into even more bread


...With the prophetic proof established that the body of Christ is fulfilling Christ's body for the SALVATION of many. I emphasized that only AFTER salvation is achieved, are those - who are "saved" - in a position to be purified.

It's only *after* people are saved (i.e. kept alive) that they are in a position to be purified; to accept the pure bread that would later be offered to them. But the question is, will many accept the pure bread...or will only a few accept it?

Again let me point out that salvation is a forgone conclusion for the people I'm referencing whose next step is purification. I am not commenting on Salvation, but Purification. But the question I posed is "will many or only a few accept the purification?"

The question I pose is no different than the question found in passage Malachi 3:2 [brackets are mine]

But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the [priests of God] and refine them like gold and silver. Then the Lord will have [people] who will [worship] in righteousness.​

Then reemphasized in a letter of Paul is this same issue I'm raising with my question...

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​

Note: The man who builds incorrectly on the foundation of "Christ" in this passage is still saved...but what he has built on that foundation is proven for its value. His doctrine.

I then brought it back around to Calvinism as one of many differing denominations (theologies or "views") that still have at its foundation "Christ = Salvation". At the core of "the bread" shared by these denominations is STILL "the life" (Christ = Salvation) even though the bread has "leaven" (i.e. some incorrect doctrine) in it. I then concluded that there is indeed coming a time when "pure bread" will be offered (i.e. "Christ minus the incorrect doctrine") where those who are saved will have to choose to accept it or reject it in order to build upon it properly to receive their reward.


- Some will accept it and they'll have built a great structure that withstand Christ's scrutiny.

- Some will reject it (because it's contrary to their fleshy expectations, in fulfillment of John 6 & Revelation 10:9-11) and all of what they've built will be destroyed...though they'll be saved, yet with nothing to show for their efforts.

-----

Calvinism is but one of a multitude of denominations that have a bit of leaven in their daily bread, but they're no less part of this body that was broken for the salvation of many. There is - however - coming a time when many must choose to accept the pure bread over the leavened bread their bellies are used to eating, in fulfillment of John 6.


2 times Christ fed the multitude...but he did not offer them the same bread a 3rd time.

2 days Christ stayed with the Samaritans (i.e. gentile believers)...but he did not stay with them a 3rd day.

2 thousand years the body of Christ has grown into many denominations...but will those denominations remain during the next millennium?

And this - by effect - will spell the end of all denominations, because all leaven will be purged and the once broken body of Christ will be whole; united in "truth".

---

I was actually calling Calvinists our brothers & sisters - like many denominations are - and, like you, was defending them as being in the same situation as all of us.

 

[crossnote]

¿Does any know the difference between Augustine and Calvin when it comes to predestination?

 

[maxwel]

I was actually calling Calvinists our brothers & sisters - like many denominations are - and, like you, was defending them as being in the same situation as all of us.

Cool.
No worries then.

 

[svedbygrace]

John 3:15-16

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


15 that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.




Acts 10:36-45

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all 37 that word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judæa, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 41 not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.



Romans 9:33

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


33 as it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.



Romans 10:8-11

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.




1 Timothy 2:1-8

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)


2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.



1 John 5:1

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.




2 Peter 3:9

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


[HR][/HR]

Bottomeline: do not fall for the wicked and satanic system of Calvinism where Calvinists are teaching that God has pre-ordanined some to damnation, while only electing and ordaning some to eternal life.

Anyone can get saved. God chooses to save those who believe. Anyone can become part of the elect.

God's will is that ALL should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

God chooses to elect those who are in Christ.

No lost person at the Great White Throne Judgment will be without excuse. Every single damned and lost person will know that they COULD HAVE BEEN SAVED. But that by their own wicked rebellion and refusal to believe on and trust the Lord Jesus Christ is, they will know that it was this decision of theirs that damned them. They will know that they will be cast into the Lake of Fire for all of Eternity because they chose and decided to reject the Lord Jesus Christ.

And the very fact that there is a Judgment also refutes the dumb system of Calvinism. I mean why judge someone if he never had a change to get saved???

So, if you have gotten caught up in the Satanic system of calvinism, simply forsake it, repent and start believing God's word, the Authorized King James Holy Bible.

You don't believe or understand not one of those verses !

 

[VCO]

. . .

[HR][/HR]

Bottomeline: do not fall for the wicked and satanic system of Calvinism where Calvinists are teaching that God has pre-ordanined some to damnation, while only electing and ordaning some to eternal life.

. . .

So, if you have gotten caught up in the Satanic system of calvinism, simply forsake it, repent and start believing God's word, the Authorized King James Holy Bible.

First of all, I have no interest in debating you, and will not even save this thread to return to it.

I will however in this one post share a few things that I have learned over the 35 years that I have been a born again Christian.


Proverbs 6:16-19 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The LORD hates six things; in fact, seven are detestable to Him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] arrogant eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] a heart that plots wicked schemes, feet eager to run to evil,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] a lying witness who gives false testimony, and one who stirs up trouble among brothers.

1 John 4:20 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For the person who does not love his brother he has seen, cannot love the God he has not seen.


1. It is SIN to call a weaker brother's beliefs OR stronger brother's beliefs, Satanic, just because you do not agree with all of them. ANYONE who seriously believes in the Holy Trinity, including the Deity of Christ, and who has received Jesus Christ as LORD, which means MASTER; most certainly is a CHRISTIAN, no matter what denomination he or she belongs to. So you do not agree with everything they teach, IF THEY BELIEVE IN THE SAME CORE OF BELIEFS TAUGHT BY ALL MAINLINE CHRISTIANITY CHURCHES THEY STILL ARE CHRISTIANS. How many of your beliefs are based on misinformation, false doctrines, and misinterpretations? I guess we will find out when the LORD COMES.

2. MOST of the those who claim to be anti-Calvinists, especially those who verbally trash their beliefs, DO NOT KNOW A HILL OF BEANS ABOUT WHAT THEY TRULY BELIEVE. Yet they spew false statements and half truths about their beliefs, speaking as if they are doing GOD a favor by spreading the lies that were taught to them. Denominational bigotry is a sin, no matter what form it takes.

3. I am NOT a Calvinist, because I only believe in 3 of the 5 points of Calvinism and thus they would disown me; and the Armenians would disown me too, because I do believe 3 of the 5 points of Calvinism. I guess I will just have to be satisfied with being labeled a CHRISTIAN. I suspect most of us posting here would agree.

Philippians 4:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

2 Peter 3:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.

2 Timothy 2:23-25 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

 

[Spokenpassage]

You cannot refute the truth, only those who disagree with truth would assume such a claim. Though it fails, because it is not man they challenge but God and His Word.

 

[all4him383]

Calvinism is correct in which that it takes an act of god to get someone out of there sinful state and it is also correct in predestination. But it is not correct in limited atonement, nor irrestiable grace, nor perseverance of the saints

 

[cxjonz]

Calvinism is correct in which that it takes an act of god to get someone out of there sinful state and it is also correct in predestination. But it is not correct in limited atonement, nor irrestiable grace, nor perseverance of the saints

If Calvinism becomes correct it will be an accident.

 

[all4him383]

If Calvinism becomes correct it will be an accident.

I said it was correct in two aspects of tuplip but it is a false branch of christianity. True christiantiy does have predestination

 

[ChosenbyHim]

You cannot refute the truth, only those who disagree with truth would assume such a claim. Though it fails, because it is not man they challenge but God and His Word.

While Satan's system of Calvinism may have some truths in it, nevertheless, it is still a system hatched from the Devil himself. Remember Satan mixes truth with error.

And the truth is this: anyone can get saved. God elects and predestines those who ALREADY in Christ.

God does not force anyone to believe on His Son. God simply chooses to save those who believe on His Son.

And when a person gets saved by trusting in Christ; that is when God then chooses to elect that person. Why? Because that person is in Christ.

 

[all4him383]

While Satan's system of Calvinism may have some truths in it, nevertheless, it is still a system hatched from the Devil himself. Remember Satan mixes truth with error.

And the truth is this: anyone can get saved. God elects and predestines those who ALREADY in Christ.

God does not force anyone to believe on His Son. God simply chooses to save those who believe on His Son.

And when a person gets saved by trusting in Christ; that is when God then chooses to elect that person. Why? Because that person is in Christ.

thats a lie, god draws people to Jesus we cant choose him(John 6:44) God has vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath(Romans 9:22-23), god created these before the foundation of the world(Ephesians 1:4)

 

[ChosenbyHim]

You don't believe or understand not one of those verses !

I do believe each one of those verses.

Now let me ask you, do you believe the Holy Bible?