Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

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DevotiontoBible

Senior Member
#421
Jan 6, 2018
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#421
preacher4truth said:
Talk about missing the forest for the trees. What was the Pharisee Nicodemus teaching? OT. What was he supposed to see, knowing the OT? That people are born from above, and were so in the OT. He was rebuked for not knowing these things, being ignorant of truth.

You are either on milk, and cannot handle solid food, and are incapable of deducing truth from Scripture or something else. Of course I'm assuming it is this, and will be frank here; we always have 1 Corinthians 2:14 to consider as well since you are counting these things as foolishness. That said, you really need to back up a lot, and actually think, because the things you are repudiating are things of God.
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There you go again putting words in Jesus' mouth. Read what Jesus actually told him. Jesus told him that he is a teacher but can't understand or believe what Jesus is telling him. Jesus never said the guy doesn't believe the OT Scriptures. Don't you Calvinists ever read the Bible?
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#422
Dec 28, 2016
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#422
eternally-gratefull said:
oh wow. You keep getting further and further away.

The penalty of sin is death, Not partially dead. In Adam all die. Not partially dead.

Are you sure your not at war with calvin so much your making stuff up? Just asking, because I have never heard these things.
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In all your learning you can't distinguish that what he is teaching is Pelagianism? You've never heard this before? This false teaching is old, it has been around for centuries!
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#423
Apr 22, 2013
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#423
DevotiontoBible said:
They are called the Old Testament (Contract) and New Testament (Contract) for a reason. It is not a single book. Nobody follows an old contract after a new one is made.
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I'm sorry but this is just wrong.

From Genesis 3, and the 1st prophecy, the Seed of the woman, regarding the Messiah, His Son, from God Himself, to Revelation 21, the ENTIRE Bible, Old AND New Testaments deal with how God is going to redeem His people.
 
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DevotiontoBible

Senior Member
#424
Jan 6, 2018
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#424
eternally-gratefull said:
Paul was speaking post salvation, not pre.. Paul had no capacity to know what was good pre salvation.

You do not know, or have the capacity to do what is spiritually good until you are born again.

You’re still pushing on the verge of teaching works my friend.
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No, he wasn't. He was speaking as a slave to sin Ro 7:14 which he just got done explaining in depth in the previous ch 6 is the condition of someone before conversion. And yes, we have the capacity to know what is good before regeneration, but we are powerless to do it.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#426
Dec 28, 2016
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#426
DevotiontoBible said:
There you go again putting words in Jesus' mouth. Read what Jesus actually told him. Jesus told him that he is a teacher but can't understand or believe what Jesus is telling him. Jesus never said the guy doesn't believe the OT Scriptures. Don't you Calvinists ever read the Bible?
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It's really sad that you can't see what is in front of you. Wow! Incapable of deducing truth, counting things seen in Scripture foolishness. You're on an unsustainable path.

For the record, I never stated Jesus said he didn't believe the OT Scriptures. Stop bearing false witness, maybe?

You're either blatantly lying, or just blind to what others say, or you purposefully twist what is said.

What I actually stated is that he should have known, by being a teacher of the OT to Israel, that those in the OT were born from above. That was Jesus point - Nicodemus not knowing this really knew nothing Spiritually speaking. You're as ignorant as he was, but at least he knew Scripture and what Jesus was saying. You are incapable of seeing this truth!
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
#427
Dec 28, 2016
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#427
DevotiontoBible said:
There you go again putting words in Jesus' mouth. Read what Jesus actually told him. Jesus told him that he is a teacher but can't understand or believe what Jesus is telling him. Jesus never said the guy doesn't believe the OT Scriptures. Don't you Calvinists ever read the Bible?
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Jesus told Nicodemus, a teacher of the OT scriptures, three times, he must be born again. Nicodemus did not grasp that.

Then Jesus chastised him for not knowing this. That’s the context of the conversation in John 3. He told him, “You’re a teacher of Israel and do not know these things?”
 
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DevotiontoBible

Senior Member
#428
Jan 6, 2018
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#428
preacher4truth said:
It's really sad that you can't see what is in front of you. Wow! Incapable of deducing truth, counting things seen in Scripture foolishness. You're on an unsustainable path.

For the record, I never stated Jesus said he didn't believe the OT Scriptures. Stop bearing false witness, maybe?

You're either blatantly lying, or just blind to what others say, or you purposefully twist what is said.

What I actually stated is that he should have known, by being a teacher of the OT to Israel, that those in the OT were born from above. That was Jesus point - Nicodemus not knowing this really knew nothing Spiritually speaking. You're as ignorant as he was, but at least he knew Scripture and what Jesus was saying. You are incapable of seeing this truth!
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You did it again. You accused me of twisting your words and then you repeated the same thing what I told you that you were saying. Again, Jesus wasn't telling Nicodemus he didn't understand the OT.
 
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Grandpa

Senior Member
#429
Jun 24, 2011
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#429
DevotiontoBible said:
There you go again putting words in Jesus' mouth. Read what Jesus actually told him. Jesus told him that he is a teacher but can't understand or believe what Jesus is telling him. Jesus never said the guy doesn't believe the OT Scriptures. Don't you Calvinists ever read the Bible?
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Are we allowed to? I thought all we could do was read 'Institutes' and argue with dumb Arminians.

You ever wonder why people hate Calvins theology so much? Its not because it is un-biblical. It is because it takes power away from men and gives it back to God where it truly belongs.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#430
Dec 28, 2016
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#430
SovereignGrace said:
Jesus told Nicodemus, a teacher of the OT scriptures, three times, he must be born again. Nicodemus did not grasp that.

Then Jesus chastised him for not knowing this. That’s the context of the conversation in John 3. He told him, “You’re a teacher of Israel and do not know these things?”
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I guess I'll be back later. :confused:

Cannot see anything profitable in engaging this dude round and round repeating the same things to him, things he cannot see, and considers foolish. Seems quite the waste of time.
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
#431
Dec 28, 2016
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#431
DevotiontoBible said:
You did it again. You accused me of twisting your words and then you repeated the same thing what I told you that you were saying. Again, Jesus wasn't telling Nicodemus he didn't understand the OT.
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Jesus was rebuking Nicodemus for not knowing ppl must be born again, regenerated. So, it shows OT saints were regenerated.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#432
Apr 22, 2013
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#432
DevotiontoBible said:
See, now you are putting words in my mouth. I never said that. The Bible never says OT people were regenerated. That couldn't happen until after Christ died on the cross and rose again.
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This is an interesting point. Were they "sealed" with the Holy Spirit like we are? Did they hang out in Abraham's Bosom til Jesus came to them ? I tend to believe they were regenerated on Earth, through belief in Messiah. Just as we are saved by looking back at what Jesus did for us, they were saved by looking forward to what He would do for them. Really the same coin, just different sides.

Not sure it matters. It is still God that gave them a new heart to believe. You do understand that God doesn't fix our heart. He gives us a new one.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#433
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
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#433
DevotiontoBible said:
You did it again. You accused me of twisting your words and then you repeated the same thing what I told you that you were saying. Again, Jesus wasn't telling Nicodemus he didn't understand the OT.
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Annnnnddddd you're still twisting things. I made no such statement. :D
 
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DevotiontoBible

Senior Member
#434
Jan 6, 2018
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#434
SovereignGrace said:
Jesus told Nicodemus, a teacher of the OT scriptures, three times, he must be born again. Nicodemus did not grasp that.

Then Jesus chastised him for not knowing this. That’s the context of the conversation in John 3. He told him, “You’re a teacher of Israel and do not know these things?”
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But Jesus didn't chastise him for not knowing or not believing the OT. That's the point.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#436
Dec 28, 2016
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#436
SovereignGrace said:
Jesus was rebuking Nicodemus for not knowing ppl must be born again, regenerated. So, it shows OT saints were regenerated.
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Jesus rebuked him for not seeing and knowing that OT saints were born from above, then tells him he must be born from above as well. I think Jesus made his point clear.
 
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DevotiontoBible

Senior Member
#438
Jan 6, 2018
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#438
preacher4truth said:
Jesus rebuked him for not seeing and knowing that OT saints were born from above, then tells him he must be born from above as well. I think Jesus made his point clear.
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No OT people are being referred to in that discourse. There you go again putting words in Jesus' mouth.
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
#439
Dec 28, 2016
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#439
DevotiontoBible said:
But Jesus didn't chastise him for not knowing or not believing the OT. That's the point.
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That’s not the point I am making.

The point I am stressing is this...when Jesus told Nicodemus “you must be born again”, Nicodemus did not know what He meant. Then Jesus flew into him, because he was a teacher of OT scriptures to Israel. So, the teaching of regeneration is not a NT concept only, but also found in the OT as well.

It would be like someone coming to a college math professor and giving him/her x+ 3y=5, and them not knowing the answer. They’d be shocked for them not knowing that which they’re were teaching. Nicodemus was teaching what he did not know, and Jesus flew into him for it.
 
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