Can Salvation be lost?

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Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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I was listening to a sermon on the car radio a few days ago. The minister said (I'm paraphrasing), that there are no behaviors or acts on our part that can earn salvation. Salvation comes through the grace of God. (I don't have an issue with this; it's not the subject of this thread.)

But then the minister went on to say (paraphrasing again) that there are no behaviors or acts on our part that can cause us to lose salvation once we've been saved. Is this right? I'm a bit skeptical of this. It seems to me that being saved in Christ doesn't magically grant us carte blanche to engage in any sort of sinful behavior that temptation sends our way. Or does it?

Can Salvation be lost?
Some say Yes and some say NO. Jesus tells us that no one who comes to him through the Father will be Lost.
There are many verses to this subject. Here is one to get you started. John 10:28

There are many who read Galations come away with a YES. However, this was Paul talking to the the Galatians who many had come to believe the Judaizers over Paul's teachings.

Here is the difference one might find in Calvanism's (T in tulip, Total Depravity) or rather God chose you thus you cannot fall or the Armenianism's view of 'You chose God without his interference' and can change your mind or fall out of Grace..



 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Here is the difference one might find in Calvanism's (T in tulip, Total Depravity) or rather God chose you thus you cannot fall or the Armenianism's view of 'You chose God without his interference' and can change your mind or fall out of Grace..
I believe that is a false representation, for the Armenian view specifically states:

"That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will," and unaided by the Holy Spirit, no person is able to respond to God's will;
 

Innerfire89

Senior Member
Aug 23, 2017
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ok so the seed can be the word of God or it can be the testimony of Jesus Christ but could it also represent the holy spirit or perhaps salvation itself? And for that matter what makes a person saved? I mean sure many claim to be Christians many go to church many prayer and study the scriptures but but even non believers seem to understand there is a fine line between a Christian by title and a Christian by heart.

If the seed was indeed planted but bore no fruit does that mean they were never saved to begin with or is it like how a plant grows and sprouts but thorns and weeds grow with it and kill the plant? I mean I find it odd how we are warned about backsliding if we can never lose our salvation and if one was never saved to begin with because they backslid and fell from faith then how can we tell who is saved and who isn't and is it even our place to to do so? Like when did salvation become so complicated?
Well, how strong is the Holy Spirit that works in us?

The reason backsliding is warned agianst is because God will allow sin to kill us and we can loose our reward in heaven which is a crown. Think of those verses were Paul says "hand them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh." God can also punish a sinning believer with death like in Acts 5:3.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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I believe that is a false representation, for the Armenian view specifically states:

"That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will," and unaided by the Holy Spirit, no person is able to respond to God's will;
"

"The (Christian) grace "of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of any good," yet man may resist the Holy Spirit; and" (1)

If you use the five points (Tulip) of Calvinism with Armenianism, the only Biblical point is Point #2 "Unlimited Atonement".

Calvinism emphasizes the sovereignty of God. Arminianism emphasizes the responsibility of man.

"prevenient" grace from God is just sitting there waiting for man to get it by His own volition. Yet, the Bible tells us that God picks us and gives us to Jesus and no can take us away.

It has been a while since I spoke to you... Have a very Blessed Evening.\
Blade




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism
 
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Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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Well, how strong is the Holy Spirit that works in us?

The reason backsliding is warned agianst is because God will allow sin to kill us and we can loose our reward in heaven which is a crown. Think of those verses were Paul says "hand them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh." God can also punish a sinning believer with death like in Acts 5:3.

If you are in the Flesh you are NOT with GOD!
 
Jun 1, 2016
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Obedience is not the power in following Jesus, but believing in Him in being our Good Shepherd is.

Even I need His help to do even that, but I see myself following Him by the grace of God and thus getting to know Him & the power of His resurrection when I deny myself as able to follow Him, and trust in Him as my Good Shepherd to see that I can.


well you know the things is sure Jesus is our shepherd, He is Also Our Lord is the thing.

He is the One who teaches Obedience and no matter How someone wants to slice it we have to repent of doing satans will ( sin) and do Gods Will ( righteousness) we can debate motive whether its by grace which it is but what was accomplished by Grace creates obedient people lol

there is no salvation for those who do not obey God its pretty clear there in those verses from Paul. and many other places in scripture. i think your view is a good one, but to make Obeying God not essential is error we should learn that from the very first man disobeys = death, man repents is forgiven because Jesus died and they obey God. obedience is central to the One who has accepted Jesus and He gives us the Power through the Holy spirit to obey, he doesnt force us but offers the power to overcome the sinner and walk as children of God who actually do Gods Will.

I thank God every day seceral times for Jesus and what Hes done in my life, thats what Obedience does is Honor the Lord. theres no way to remove obeying God from the Gospel. and Grace certainly doesnt do that titus 2:11-15, its meant to teach us to Live upright Godly Lives in this world while we wait for Jesus return.

those who do that would be found in this Group who receive eternal Life "
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: <<<<< pretty clearly what is there those who continue in doing good will receive this. and those who do not ???

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; <<<< pretty clearly those who refuse to Obey the truth which is Jesus, they do not receive eternal Life but rather indignation, wrath, tribulation and anguish.


im all for opinion and " well i feel this or that" but it becomes an issue when we have to pretend scripture doesnt say what it says.

Obedience should be the result of Jesus being Lord, obedience should be what a new creation created in christ is meant to do. which is the very next verse after " you have been saved By Grace"


so what are you actually saying? obedience is not rewuired? or are you telling me what motivates your obedience? either way obedience is rewuired for salvation, and to obey, we have to first repent its really not that complex sin is death, obedience to God is Life. sin is evil its the will of satan, righteousness is good it is the will of God. One cant claim to be a child of God if they are obeying satan. righteousness is what we do because of what Jesus did and as far as Judgement its rather plain regardless of the many doctrines which make it null.



romans 2:5-11 "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God.


this is the same Judgement Jesus taught, solomon taught, Paul teaches elsewhere christians need to begin accepting obedience so that when they are judged By thier deeds they will receive what Jesus promised to those who Obey Him


Hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


this is not a lone scripture its simply what the Bible teaches this idea in the church that we shouldnt look at what e do is not at all a true thing. the source is Jesus but we obey the Lord because of Him. if we do not obey the Gospel then we have this coming

2 thessolonians 1:8-9 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


it has somehow become a bad thing in the modern indoctrinated church to speak of Our part in obeying God, but it doesnt change the Bible though, its better to learn what God said and take that in, thats where obedience will come from the truth.
 
Jun 1, 2016
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Well of course obedience is apart of following and serving Jesus,but the point made is that salvation "cannot" be lost once received,and that's not just concerning our after life it's concerning ourselves as a whole,"


the thing is though Jesus gives salvation to those who obey Him, its not an afterthought and it doesnt just magically Happen, Obedience like all things comes when you believe Jesus is telling you to obey His commands and teachings when a person doesnt say in thier mind " well naw it has nothing to do with obedience" or " naw its all the cross forget His word"

Obedience is something we choose to do, in response to the sacrifice He gave. that is not simply for us to be forgiven, it also leads to His resurrection and His ascention, when He ascended He sent the Holy spirit to those who believe His Word as He said to them that He would....

its really the purpose of everything to call sinners to repentance of sin, and bring them into obedience to God. thats what saves us thats how we can say " yes we will be judged By our deeds" as the Bible makes very clear, because an obedient persons deeds will be those which offer salvation. do we do this without Jesus? Nope not possible, with God though it is possible its why we received Gods spirit. its why Grace was given to make sinners into obedient children of God. we could haggle over this or that, buit the crux of it either leads to repentance of our sin, meaning what we do, and leads to acting in righteousness before God. praise Jesus for His sacrifice amen.......but that doesnt release us from Obeying God it makes us able where we were not before Him.


the Gospel changes Hearts and Minds and therefore Lives and actions. it makes beuty from ashes, Life from the dead. it either changes us or we have not accepted the offer. Obedience is not an after though or a " when i get around to it type thing. when we sin, we are serving satans will in the world. when we repent and stop serving satan, were free to obey God. God made us able already but were not in a headlock being forced against our will, he gave us a gift of righteousness to follow and that is where salvation is found.
 
Jun 1, 2016
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do you think it would be helpful for people to define what they think salvation even is? and what were in need of saving from? sometimes i think people are seeing it very differently what salvation really even means. are we saved from needing to obey God? are we saved from the wrath of the Law of Moses? are we saved from the eternal Judgement where every soul of man will be judged according to thier deeds? are we saved from the consequences of sin past present and future? are we saved from death?


what do you suppose is meant when christians claim they already have salvation? wouldnt we be better served to Live each day as if Jesus could return any moment and make sure were walking in His teachings which are brotherly Love, charity, and all things good and right and Leave the whole " whos saved and whos not saved" to Jesus the One who gave His Life to sit on the Judgement throne?

thats what paul looked at it as

1 corinthians 4 "Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.5Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."


it seems as if we take the wrong things from pauls letters as peter warned against. so is paul claiming im saved and can never "lose my salvation"? or is He saying Jesus will determine each persons judgement? peter taught the same " God will judge each persons work impartially" soslomon taught " God will bring into judgement every deed and thought of man" Hebrews teaches it, Jesus taught it, peter, paul taught it......


salvation is to repent and Obey God Knowing what was done to forgive the past transgressions that seperated man from Gods presence ( romans 3:25) to be reconciled to relationship with Him, at this point we have a Lord who taught us to obey His Word, the same Who died to give us Life and taught us the new and eternal Covenant.

salvation is offered No one has yet laid hold of it, its a promise to those who take Jesus as Lord. and Lord has a meaning.


 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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do you think it would be helpful for people to define what they think salvation even is? and what were in need of saving from? sometimes i think people are seeing it very differently what salvation really even means. are we saved from needing to obey God? are we saved from the wrath of the Law of Moses? are we saved from the eternal Judgement where every soul of man will be judged according to thier deeds? are we saved from the consequences of sin past present and future? are we saved from death?


what do you suppose is meant when christians claim they already have salvation? wouldnt we be better served to Live each day as if Jesus could return any moment and make sure were walking in His teachings which are brotherly Love, charity, and all things good and right and Leave the whole " whos saved and whos not saved" to Jesus the One who gave His Life to sit on the Judgement throne?

thats what paul looked at it as

1 corinthians 4 "Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.5Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."


it seems as if we take the wrong things from pauls letters as peter warned against. so is paul claiming im saved and can never "lose my salvation"? or is He saying Jesus will determine each persons judgement? peter taught the same " God will judge each persons work impartially" soslomon taught " God will bring into judgement every deed and thought of man" Hebrews teaches it, Jesus taught it, peter, paul taught it......


salvation is to repent and Obey God Knowing what was done to forgive the past transgressions that seperated man from Gods presence ( romans 3:25) to be reconciled to relationship with Him, at this point we have a Lord who taught us to obey His Word, the same Who died to give us Life and taught us the new and eternal Covenant.

salvation is offered No one has yet laid hold of it, its a promise to those who take Jesus as Lord. and Lord has a meaning.


You are the last person on this forum that I would look to for a useful definition of salvation.
The only thing clearly articulated in your posts is utter confusion...
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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Sorry I was gone so long things have been a bit busy as of late. You know in my last post at the end I said when did salvation get so complicated and when I re read that part I began to wonder if we are dissecting this to much and making it more complicated than it really is. Because honestly When did salvation become so complicated? Think of a child for instance, a child is told to believe in Jesus and the child does and has the faith of a child and a tender love with him. That is all the child needs to hear to be saved because the child doesn't over complicate things they take it as is and just loves Jesus.

I think we need to look at this through the eyes and heart of a child because we may be over complicating things
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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Sorry I was gone so long things have been a bit busy as of late. You know in my last post at the end I said when did salvation get so complicated and when I re read that part I began to wonder if we are dissecting this to much and making it more complicated than it really is. Because honestly When did salvation become so complicated? Think of a child for instance, a child is told to believe in Jesus and the child does and has the faith of a child and a tender love with him. That is all the child needs to hear to be saved because the child doesn't over complicate things they take it as is and just loves Jesus.

I think we need to look at this through the eyes and heart of a child because we may be over complicating things
Lot to be said for this approach!
Of course, in this context, childlike does not at all mean childish!
 
Apr 15, 2017
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I do not believe it can be lost,for God gave it,and the gifts and calling of God are without repentance on His part.

But it can be forfeited by the person,which they do not have to deny God,and Jesus,in that sense of them as a being,but back away from the lifestyle they once embraced at the beginning.

Luk 9:61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
Luk 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

No person when they make a start following Christ,and correctly knowing that they have to abstain from sin,goes back to sinning,and holding unto sin,is not fit for the kingdom of God.

There are many people that claim Christ,that did not truly repent,and never received the Spirit,which they have a form of godliness,but deny the power thereof,and ever learning and never able to come to the truth,which Jesus will say He never knew them.

And we hear of preachers who will hand out a pamphlet,and they say a short prayer,and the preacher says,you are saved,but then the person basically keeps on living the way they were,and think I am saved,for there was no explaining what repentance means,and to receive the Spirit to abstain from sin,but left them hanging regarding what actually saves them,unless they search it out by being interested in the Bible.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Old Testament,New Testament,the same rules apply,you back away from the goodness of God,what He laid down of what you should abide by,and do not correct it,holding unto sin instead of the goodness of God,you will be cut off.

Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.

Old Testament,New Testament,the same rules apply,do not depart from the living God by the deceitfulness of sin,which a person does not have to deny God,and Jesus,as a being,but holding unto sin causes a person to depart from God until they correct it.

In the Bible a lot of times it is not saying that they gave up on God,and Christ,and did not acknowledge them,but they went back to the sinful ways,and that is how they got in to an unsaved position until they correct it.

But many did not even repent correctly to start,and did not begin in the goodness of God,for they repented of their sins from the past,but then went to doing the sins that they were doing currently,and might ask for forgiveness every time they did them,but did not turn from them,or did not ask for forgiveness at all,and thought they were covered by the blood.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Any person putting their hand to the plough looking back is not fit for the kingdom of God,which some do escape the pollutions of the world,and have the knowledge of Jesus Christ,but then go back to the beggarly elements of the world,and is like a pig that was clean going back to her wallowing in the mire.

Gal 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
Gal 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
Gal 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
Gal 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Whatever a person sows that is what they shall reap,and sin affects our relationship with God whether we confess Christ,or not.

Old Testament,New Testament,the same rules apply,and if you do not follow trouble is a brewing.

1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

No charity,love in action,towards all people,no faith,no salvation.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity(does not sin), but rejoiceth in the truth.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Love God.

Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Love people.

Millions of people that confess Christ do not measure up to love,and have worldliness about them.

We cannot lose salvation,for God is always offering it if He called you,but we can forfeit it by not acting like Christ by the Spirit,which there are warnings in the Bible concerning it,and there does not need to be warnings if it were nt possible.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Rom 11:22 if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
 

Innerfire89

Senior Member
Aug 23, 2017
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If you are in the Flesh you are NOT with GOD!
Yet we are the temple of The Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God.

Not to be rude, but what made you come up with that argument?
 
D

Depleted

Guest
Salvation is base oN believe. Whosoever believe Will be save. Can man change his mind? I do, when I was kid I like toy, now I change, I No longer like toy

as long AS man believe he save, If he change his mind and No longer believe, he lost his salvation
Salvation is based on Christ. Nothing short of him.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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I do not believe it can be lost,for God gave it,and the gifts and calling of God are without repentance on His part.

But it can be forfeited by the person,which they do not have to deny God,and Jesus,in that sense of them as a being,but back away from the lifestyle they once embraced at the beginning.

Luk 9:61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
Luk 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

No person when they make a start following Christ,and correctly knowing that they have to abstain from sin,goes back to sinning,and holding unto sin,is not fit for the kingdom of God.

There are many people that claim Christ,that did not truly repent,and never received the Spirit,which they have a form of godliness,but deny the power thereof,and ever learning and never able to come to the truth,which Jesus will say He never knew them.

And we hear of preachers who will hand out a pamphlet,and they say a short prayer,and the preacher says,you are saved,but then the person basically keeps on living the way they were,and think I am saved,for there was no explaining what repentance means,and to receive the Spirit to abstain from sin,but left them hanging regarding what actually saves them,unless they search it out by being interested in the Bible.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Old Testament,New Testament,the same rules apply,you back away from the goodness of God,what He laid down of what you should abide by,and do not correct it,holding unto sin instead of the goodness of God,you will be cut off.

Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.

Old Testament,New Testament,the same rules apply,do not depart from the living God by the deceitfulness of sin,which a person does not have to deny God,and Jesus,as a being,but holding unto sin causes a person to depart from God until they correct it.

In the Bible a lot of times it is not saying that they gave up on God,and Christ,and did not acknowledge them,but they went back to the sinful ways,and that is how they got in to an unsaved position until they correct it.

But many did not even repent correctly to start,and did not begin in the goodness of God,for they repented of their sins from the past,but then went to doing the sins that they were doing currently,and might ask for forgiveness every time they did them,but did not turn from them,or did not ask for forgiveness at all,and thought they were covered by the blood.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Any person putting their hand to the plough looking back is not fit for the kingdom of God,which some do escape the pollutions of the world,and have the knowledge of Jesus Christ,but then go back to the beggarly elements of the world,and is like a pig that was clean going back to her wallowing in the mire.

Gal 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
Gal 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
Gal 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
Gal 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Whatever a person sows that is what they shall reap,and sin affects our relationship with God whether we confess Christ,or not.

Old Testament,New Testament,the same rules apply,and if you do not follow trouble is a brewing.

1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

No charity,love in action,towards all people,no faith,no salvation.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity(does not sin), but rejoiceth in the truth.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Love God.

Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Love people.

Millions of people that confess Christ do not measure up to love,and have worldliness about them.

We cannot lose salvation,for God is always offering it if He called you,but we can forfeit it by not acting like Christ by the Spirit,which there are warnings in the Bible concerning it,and there does not need to be warnings if it were nt possible.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Rom 11:22 if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Matt, a word to the wise:

Nobody is going to read this.
It is just an impenetrable wall of text.
And it is very difficult to see where quoted text ends and your comments begin.
I can see that you have broken the post into paragraphs but it isn't helping much.

This is not a criticism of the content of your longer posts, only their formatting...

Sadly, you may have profound points to make, but I fear that you are the only one benefitting currently.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
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Tradition has drastically misrepresented the word of God.

Warnings in Scripture are not simply given to avoid punishment, but to also encourage discipleship.

The biggest issue I am seeing is when people are reading Scripture to determine how to control other people instead of controlling themselves.

Scripture is a sword given to cut our own hearts, if you don't want to leave the Lord once you know Him, why do you assume others will?

In regards to the seed of God, Jesus calls the results tares vs wheat.

They look identical until it's fruit bearing season.

Tares don't bear fruit. Wheat does.

Matt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.
 
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88

Senior Member
Nov 14, 2016
3,517
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I was listening to a sermon on the car radio a few days ago. The minister said (I'm paraphrasing), that there are no behaviors or acts on our part that can earn salvation. Salvation comes through the grace of God. (I don't have an issue with this; it's not the subject of this thread.)

But then the minister went on to say (paraphrasing again) that there are no behaviors or acts on our part that can cause us to lose salvation once we've been saved. Is this right? I'm a bit skeptical of this. It seems to me that being saved in Christ doesn't magically grant us carte blanche to engage in any sort of sinful behavior that temptation sends our way. Or does it?

Can Salvation be lost?
***You have asked a very important question---this article may help...
[h=3]Is It Possible to Lose Your Salvation? | Ask Dr. Brown[/h]
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,103
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Descriptive passages and prescriptive passages?
Yes, do you not understand the difference?

What about Jesus' explanation of the parable of the sower? Is it a descriptive passage or a prescriptive passage?
In the parable of the sower, we see a description of 4 different soils, yet which soil represents faith that was firmly rooted and established? Only the 4 soil.

It seems on point in regards to loss of salvation.
On the surface it may "appear" that way, but is that really the case?

In it Jesus talks about people who have received the word but then fall away. Is it true that that can happen?
People who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and having "no root" do not experience real salvation.

18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
The seed is snatched away before it even begins to have a chance to start to take root.

20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
The rocky ground hearers are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root.." *Problem from the start. Temporary shallow belief that was not firmly rooted or established from the start "has no root" represents rocky soil. Then we see the results of this. Temporary shallow belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away, does not represent saving belief.

The shallow ground hearer is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was "not good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth.

John has portrayed people as "believing" who are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of consummated belief that results in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, where they have a superficial "belief" and in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus, children of the devil, liars, and guilty of setting out to stone the one they have professed to believe in.

22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.
In regards to the thorny soil, the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal, making it [unfruitful]. The word is choked and does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person. The worries of life and the deceitfulness of wealth have the effect of stifling the word/gospel, such that the person does not bear the fruit of salvation. Neither the stony ground hearer or the thorny ground hearer was fruitful. Put a stop to the growth of the word and it gives no fruit (Bible in Basic English).

The potential to eventually become established and produce fruit was there, but the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal. It (the seed, the word) became unfruitful (produces nothing, proves unfruitful, does not produce fruit, yields nothing), because the growth of the word was choked. In the Complete Jewish Bible we read, Now the seed sown among thorns stands for someone who hears the message, but it is choked by the worries of the world and the deceitful glamor of wealth, so that it produces nothing. Nothing amounts to nothing and nothing was mentioned about it ever producing something. In both cases, faith without works is dead.

23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.” (Matthew 13:18-23)
Now in CONTRAST, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

*Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size.* The question may still remain, "can this forth soil eventually become fruitless?" I have to conclude that if this were possible, why didn't Christ include such a scenario before concluding? There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF CHOKING OR WITHERING THEREAFTER.