Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?
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No quasar, you have been deceived. I have read your post #8 and your post is the basis for my questions? You outright deny the deity of Jesus Christ (and I am NOT talking about the Trinity), I'm talking about the identity of who is Jesus Christ. You just said, "Jesus IS NOT Almighty God,"
You then said this: " Jesus is/was the FIRSTBORN over all creation, in Col.1:15, described in Pr.8:22-36." Your don't even understand what "firstborn" means because your using the word (which in Greek is "prfototokos") and it has two primary meanings which depends on how the word is used in its context. You have chosen that it means to be created which is what the "Arians" believe. This is why one poster accused you of being a JW. Unitarians also believe Jesus Christ was a created being. And both groups deny the deity of Jesus Christ just as you do.
Like I said, if Jesus Christ was created first of everything that was created, and if He is created Himself, HE CANNOT BE GOD. You are in extreme error by quoting Colossians 1:15 and Proverbs 8:22-36 to prove Jesus is created. In fact, I'm surprised you did not quote Revelation 3:14 to support your heretical position. The Jw's sure quote the verse. "And to the angel of the church oin Laodicea write: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD, say this."
See there quasar, Jesus Christ is the beginning of the creation of God. NOT! That word "beginning" in the Greek is "arche." We get our English word "architect" from that word and it means, the planner, the creator or the orgin of something. In other words, Jesus Christ is the creator just like Colossians 1:16 states as well as John 1:3. "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authortities-all things have been created BY HIM and for Him."
Now, regarding the "firstborn" issue. It is true that "firstborn" can reer to either the birth in a family or to special status conferred upon someone or something, WHICH CONNOTES PREEMINENCE OR HAVING FIRST PLACE AMONG OTHERS. At Colossians 1:15 the Apostle Paul is explaining that Jesus has first place in everything. This is based upon what vs16 states that "For by Him all things were created."
As well, Jesus is referred to as the "firstborn of the dead." Here is Colossians 1:18, "He/Jesus Christ is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; SO THAT HE HIMSELF MIGHT COME TO HAVE FIRST PLACE IN EVERYTHING." Even though there were others who were rasied from the dead before Jesus Christ, like Lazarus the point of the verse is that Jesus Christ holds first place among all who have or will be rasied from the dead in a permanent way by His resurrection.
And just as God refers to David as his "firstborn" king at Psalm 89:27, "the highest of the kings of the earth," even though King David was not the first king. Or how about at Genesis 22:12 where Abraham offers his "only son" despite the fact that Isaac was not Abraham's only son. Isaac had "preeminence" among the other sons of Abraham. In short, your argument is founded on a total misunderstanding of the scriptures and what words mean in their proper context. This is something you have not considered and is obviously clear to some of us here. Lastly, I plan on showing you the proof/evidence that Jesus Christ did indeed preexist in the Old Testament before His incarnation.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
You then said this: " Jesus is/was the FIRSTBORN over all creation, in Col.1:15, described in Pr.8:22-36." Your don't even understand what "firstborn" means because your using the word (which in Greek is "prfototokos") and it has two primary meanings which depends on how the word is used in its context. You have chosen that it means to be created which is what the "Arians" believe. This is why one poster accused you of being a JW. Unitarians also believe Jesus Christ was a created being. And both groups deny the deity of Jesus Christ just as you do.
Like I said, if Jesus Christ was created first of everything that was created, and if He is created Himself, HE CANNOT BE GOD. You are in extreme error by quoting Colossians 1:15 and Proverbs 8:22-36 to prove Jesus is created. In fact, I'm surprised you did not quote Revelation 3:14 to support your heretical position. The Jw's sure quote the verse. "And to the angel of the church oin Laodicea write: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD, say this."
See there quasar, Jesus Christ is the beginning of the creation of God. NOT! That word "beginning" in the Greek is "arche." We get our English word "architect" from that word and it means, the planner, the creator or the orgin of something. In other words, Jesus Christ is the creator just like Colossians 1:16 states as well as John 1:3. "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authortities-all things have been created BY HIM and for Him."
Now, regarding the "firstborn" issue. It is true that "firstborn" can reer to either the birth in a family or to special status conferred upon someone or something, WHICH CONNOTES PREEMINENCE OR HAVING FIRST PLACE AMONG OTHERS. At Colossians 1:15 the Apostle Paul is explaining that Jesus has first place in everything. This is based upon what vs16 states that "For by Him all things were created."
As well, Jesus is referred to as the "firstborn of the dead." Here is Colossians 1:18, "He/Jesus Christ is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; SO THAT HE HIMSELF MIGHT COME TO HAVE FIRST PLACE IN EVERYTHING." Even though there were others who were rasied from the dead before Jesus Christ, like Lazarus the point of the verse is that Jesus Christ holds first place among all who have or will be rasied from the dead in a permanent way by His resurrection.
And just as God refers to David as his "firstborn" king at Psalm 89:27, "the highest of the kings of the earth," even though King David was not the first king. Or how about at Genesis 22:12 where Abraham offers his "only son" despite the fact that Isaac was not Abraham's only son. Isaac had "preeminence" among the other sons of Abraham. In short, your argument is founded on a total misunderstanding of the scriptures and what words mean in their proper context. This is something you have not considered and is obviously clear to some of us here. Lastly, I plan on showing you the proof/evidence that Jesus Christ did indeed preexist in the Old Testament before His incarnation.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
The meaning of FIRSTBORN in Col.1:15:
A person's child, the first to be born; the eldest.
Your assessment of FIRSTBORN is rationalizing. For example, Jesus said the following:
In Jn.1:1-2: "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He was with God in the beginning." [Jesus did not become the Son of God/God the Son until God, the Holy Spirit produced Him by the virgin Mary in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:32, 35. Or it would contradict a number of OT statements by YHWH, that He was the one and only God, as recorded in Isa.44:6 and in 45:5:The doctrine of the Trinity is refuted by the Scriptures th
"I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,"
In Deut.32:39:
"See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand."
Nor was wisdom brought forth, given birth or appointed, because YHWH was forever eternal together with His wisdom. Nor does wisdom have emotions, nor was it a craftsman at God's side, as seen in Heb.1:1-2:
1On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.…
in Jn.17:5:[SUP]"[/SUP]And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." Confirming Pr.8:22-36 and Col.1:15.
In Gen.1:26: "Then God said, 'Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'"
Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the attributes of God's Wisdom, I refer specifically to verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ as the WHO, of the Wisdom of God. [From the NIV].
"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning,
before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24]
when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26]
I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28]
when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30]
rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33]
Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and
receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36]
That Jesus is the Personification of Wisdom [Power and Knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3
Endorsed by:
1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.
The doctrine of the Trinity is refuted by the Bible itself, as documented in my post #8.
Quasar92
No quasar, you have been deceived. I have read your post #8 and your post is the basis for my questions? You outright deny the deity of Jesus Christ (and I am NOT talking about the Trinity), I'm talking about the identity of who is Jesus Christ. You just said, "Jesus IS NOT Almighty God,"
You then said this: " Jesus is/was the FIRSTBORN over all creation, in Col.1:15, described in Pr.8:22-36." Your don't even understand what "firstborn" means because your using the word (which in Greek is "prfototokos") and it has two primary meanings which depends on how the word is used in its context. You have chosen that it means to be created which is what the "Arians" believe. This is why one poster accused you of being a JW. Unitarians also believe Jesus Christ was a created being. And both groups deny the deity of Jesus Christ just as you do.
Like I said, if Jesus Christ was created first of everything that was created, and if He is created Himself, HE CANNOT BE GOD. You are in extreme error by quoting Colossians 1:15 and Proverbs 8:22-36 to prove Jesus is created. In fact, I'm surprised you did not quote Revelation 3:14 to support your heretical position. The Jw's sure quote the verse. "And to the angel of the church oin Laodicea write: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD, say this."
See there quasar, Jesus Christ is the beginning of the creation of God. NOT! That word "beginning" in the Greek is "arche." We get our English word "architect" from that word and it means, the planner, the creator or the orgin of something. In other words, Jesus Christ is the creator just like Colossians 1:16 states as well as John 1:3. "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authortities-all things have been created BY HIM and for Him."
Now, regarding the "firstborn" issue. It is true that "firstborn" can reer to either the birth in a family or to special status conferred upon someone or something, WHICH CONNOTES PREEMINENCE OR HAVING FIRST PLACE AMONG OTHERS. At Colossians 1:15 the Apostle Paul is explaining that Jesus has first place in everything. This is based upon what vs16 states that "For by Him all things were created."
As well, Jesus is referred to as the "firstborn of the dead." Here is Colossians 1:18, "He/Jesus Christ is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; SO THAT HE HIMSELF MIGHT COME TO HAVE FIRST PLACE IN EVERYTHING." Even though there were others who were rasied from the dead before Jesus Christ, like Lazarus the point of the verse is that Jesus Christ holds first place among all who have or will be rasied from the dead in a permanent way by His resurrection.
And just as God refers to David as his "firstborn" king at Psalm 89:27, "the highest of the kings of the earth," even though King David was not the first king. Or how about at Genesis 22:12 where Abraham offers his "only son" despite the fact that Isaac was not Abraham's only son. Isaac had "preeminence" among the other sons of Abraham. In short, your argument is founded on a total misunderstanding of the scriptures and what words mean in their proper context. This is something you have not considered and is obviously clear to some of us here. Lastly, I plan on showing you the proof/evidence that Jesus Christ did indeed preexist in the Old Testament before His incarnation.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
You then said this: " Jesus is/was the FIRSTBORN over all creation, in Col.1:15, described in Pr.8:22-36." Your don't even understand what "firstborn" means because your using the word (which in Greek is "prfototokos") and it has two primary meanings which depends on how the word is used in its context. You have chosen that it means to be created which is what the "Arians" believe. This is why one poster accused you of being a JW. Unitarians also believe Jesus Christ was a created being. And both groups deny the deity of Jesus Christ just as you do.
Like I said, if Jesus Christ was created first of everything that was created, and if He is created Himself, HE CANNOT BE GOD. You are in extreme error by quoting Colossians 1:15 and Proverbs 8:22-36 to prove Jesus is created. In fact, I'm surprised you did not quote Revelation 3:14 to support your heretical position. The Jw's sure quote the verse. "And to the angel of the church oin Laodicea write: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD, say this."
See there quasar, Jesus Christ is the beginning of the creation of God. NOT! That word "beginning" in the Greek is "arche." We get our English word "architect" from that word and it means, the planner, the creator or the orgin of something. In other words, Jesus Christ is the creator just like Colossians 1:16 states as well as John 1:3. "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authortities-all things have been created BY HIM and for Him."
Now, regarding the "firstborn" issue. It is true that "firstborn" can reer to either the birth in a family or to special status conferred upon someone or something, WHICH CONNOTES PREEMINENCE OR HAVING FIRST PLACE AMONG OTHERS. At Colossians 1:15 the Apostle Paul is explaining that Jesus has first place in everything. This is based upon what vs16 states that "For by Him all things were created."
As well, Jesus is referred to as the "firstborn of the dead." Here is Colossians 1:18, "He/Jesus Christ is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; SO THAT HE HIMSELF MIGHT COME TO HAVE FIRST PLACE IN EVERYTHING." Even though there were others who were rasied from the dead before Jesus Christ, like Lazarus the point of the verse is that Jesus Christ holds first place among all who have or will be rasied from the dead in a permanent way by His resurrection.
And just as God refers to David as his "firstborn" king at Psalm 89:27, "the highest of the kings of the earth," even though King David was not the first king. Or how about at Genesis 22:12 where Abraham offers his "only son" despite the fact that Isaac was not Abraham's only son. Isaac had "preeminence" among the other sons of Abraham. In short, your argument is founded on a total misunderstanding of the scriptures and what words mean in their proper context. This is something you have not considered and is obviously clear to some of us here. Lastly, I plan on showing you the proof/evidence that Jesus Christ did indeed preexist in the Old Testament before His incarnation.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Which is the epitome of rationalizing and of opinion in which the Scriptures already posted on this thread refute you.
Quasar92
Is that the best you've got quasar, avoidance! Your like the guy who whistles in the dark hoping the dark will go away. Well from me nothing is going away, in fact it's going to get even darker because I am going to confront you on every turn including your error that God the Father is the person of the Holy Spirit.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
R
Incorrect....The "Father" is identifying The One Eternal Spirit. That Eternal One Spirit created himself a Human Body, The Son, Jesus Christ.
Two reasons: (1) So Men could see The Lord talking to them, view some of his miracles, teaching them, and then pay for our sins at Calvary.
Why did The Almighty One Lord, One God lower himself to be beaten, mocked, laughed at, spit upon and Shed Blood for us lowly mortals?
Because he created everyone ever born, and Loved his creation, mankind, enough to give us a Free Gift of eternal salvation by following simple rules and commands.
He was the Only Human Born into a fleshly body, who could qualify to pay our sin penalty
Read Hebrews Chapter 9 for what, how, and Why. God is a Spirit ( John 4 verse 24) And That eternal one spirit..created HIMSELF in Human form using Mary to fulfill this role..
The "Father" and The "Son" are ONE AND THE SAME GOD..."Father" is the Spirit, "Son" ID's the Humanity side of The Father, not a "Person"
This"Trinity" doctrine actually began in Pagan Culture and beleif...Babylon...Egypt..Rome..etc.
When Moses brought the children the Hebrew children out of Egypt, they had been fully indoctrinated in Pagan Customs and Rituals.
Many of these people would not give up their pagan beleifs, and the rest is recorded history.
The Catholic Church started Pagan Beleifs all over again after they broke away from the Original Holy Apistolic Church started in Jerusalem. Satan made certain people would stay blinded and not serve God in The Truth.
In Conclusion; Here is something else to consider...If You read in Genesis 18...You Read where THE LORD and two of his Angels paid a visit to Abraham and Sarah. They were heading to Destroy Sodom and Gommorah...Please read where The Lord, and his Angels Sat, and ATE FOOD while having fellowship with Abraham while Sarah, his wife prepared the food...
Was The Eternal One God was "Person # 1 showing himself as person # 2? Of course not!
What we see in this Chapter is a THEOPONY..
(An instant Manifestation) The Only difference between a "Theopony" , and a Jesus? Jesus had Real blood flowing his veins, to meet the eventual blood sacrifice ( Hebrews Chapter 9).
In Conclusion; There is no. PERSON #1, AND #2, OR #3.
Two reasons: (1) So Men could see The Lord talking to them, view some of his miracles, teaching them, and then pay for our sins at Calvary.
Why did The Almighty One Lord, One God lower himself to be beaten, mocked, laughed at, spit upon and Shed Blood for us lowly mortals?
Because he created everyone ever born, and Loved his creation, mankind, enough to give us a Free Gift of eternal salvation by following simple rules and commands.
He was the Only Human Born into a fleshly body, who could qualify to pay our sin penalty
Read Hebrews Chapter 9 for what, how, and Why. God is a Spirit ( John 4 verse 24) And That eternal one spirit..created HIMSELF in Human form using Mary to fulfill this role..
The "Father" and The "Son" are ONE AND THE SAME GOD..."Father" is the Spirit, "Son" ID's the Humanity side of The Father, not a "Person"
This"Trinity" doctrine actually began in Pagan Culture and beleif...Babylon...Egypt..Rome..etc.
When Moses brought the children the Hebrew children out of Egypt, they had been fully indoctrinated in Pagan Customs and Rituals.
Many of these people would not give up their pagan beleifs, and the rest is recorded history.
The Catholic Church started Pagan Beleifs all over again after they broke away from the Original Holy Apistolic Church started in Jerusalem. Satan made certain people would stay blinded and not serve God in The Truth.
In Conclusion; Here is something else to consider...If You read in Genesis 18...You Read where THE LORD and two of his Angels paid a visit to Abraham and Sarah. They were heading to Destroy Sodom and Gommorah...Please read where The Lord, and his Angels Sat, and ATE FOOD while having fellowship with Abraham while Sarah, his wife prepared the food...
Was The Eternal One God was "Person # 1 showing himself as person # 2? Of course not!
What we see in this Chapter is a THEOPONY..
(An instant Manifestation) The Only difference between a "Theopony" , and a Jesus? Jesus had Real blood flowing his veins, to meet the eventual blood sacrifice ( Hebrews Chapter 9).
In Conclusion; There is no. PERSON #1, AND #2, OR #3.
Is that the best you've got quasar, avoidance! Your like the guy who whistles in the dark hoping the dark will go away. Well from me nothing is going away, in fact it's going to get even darker because I am going to confront you on every turn including your error that God the Father is the person of the Holy Spirit.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Have you suddenly gone blind, bluto? There are five or six of my posts preceding this one you obviously ignore, that refute your views. I don't chew my cabbage twice.
Quasar92
Look quasar, I'm not arguing that firstborn does not mean the first to be born the eldest. I'm trying to tell you that it also has another meaning which is "preeminence." How the word firstborn is used in the Greek/protokos depends on the context. Luke 2:7, "And she gave birth to her firstborn son;" This is literal birth.
Romans 8:29, "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become confromed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren: In the case the word means "preeminent.
Luke 2:23, "Every firstborn male that opens the womd shall be called Holy to the Lord. This is literal birth of the word.
Colossians 1:15, "He is the image of the invisible God the firstborn of all created. This means preeminent. I could go on and on with other examples but the point is that "firstborn" DOES NOT ALWAYS pertain to be birth or created as you believe. Which now brings me to Proverbs 8. Let me say first of all I AM NOT SAYING JESUS CHRIST IS THE PERSONIFICATION OF WISDOM. I'm saying that Proverbs 8 is NOT teaching that Jesus Christ is a crated being.
The Logos is not a creature as the Arians teach or the Son of God is a creature or the Son is the beginning of Gods creation. As I said before wisdom is intrinsic to God which means wisdom has always been with God. There was never a time when God was "wisdomless." Gods wisdom is "EXPRESSED" in creation and all of Gods works. If you don't believe me on this then check me out by using a lexicon of some of these words. And btw, I agree with all the scholars you mentioned and am very familar with their work. I do find it ironic that you quote them to support Jesus being created even though all of them are "Trnitarians?" Why don't you believe them on that subject quasar?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Romans 8:29, "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become confromed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren: In the case the word means "preeminent.
Luke 2:23, "Every firstborn male that opens the womd shall be called Holy to the Lord. This is literal birth of the word.
Colossians 1:15, "He is the image of the invisible God the firstborn of all created. This means preeminent. I could go on and on with other examples but the point is that "firstborn" DOES NOT ALWAYS pertain to be birth or created as you believe. Which now brings me to Proverbs 8. Let me say first of all I AM NOT SAYING JESUS CHRIST IS THE PERSONIFICATION OF WISDOM. I'm saying that Proverbs 8 is NOT teaching that Jesus Christ is a crated being.
The Logos is not a creature as the Arians teach or the Son of God is a creature or the Son is the beginning of Gods creation. As I said before wisdom is intrinsic to God which means wisdom has always been with God. There was never a time when God was "wisdomless." Gods wisdom is "EXPRESSED" in creation and all of Gods works. If you don't believe me on this then check me out by using a lexicon of some of these words. And btw, I agree with all the scholars you mentioned and am very familar with their work. I do find it ironic that you quote them to support Jesus being created even though all of them are "Trnitarians?" Why don't you believe them on that subject quasar?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Good job fred, your absolutely right but quasar here does not get it and he thinks that firstborn "ALWAYS" means the first one born or first one created. Keep up the good work.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; John 5:26
Thus, an eternal God can create within and that which is formed is eternal.
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: a body of eternal Light.
Thus the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world.
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. 1 Tim 6:16
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Yes z, the Son was never created. Secondly, if you look at John 1:4 it says, "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." In other words, Jesus had life in himself BEFORE His incarnation. This power was given back to him AFTER His resurrection, after he had accomplished His mission as a man.
Now, for a pious Jew to ascribe all power in heaven and earth to ANYONE is for him to acknowledge the absolute deity of that person. Please read Philippians 2:6-8 for more insight.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Now, for a pious Jew to ascribe all power in heaven and earth to ANYONE is for him to acknowledge the absolute deity of that person. Please read Philippians 2:6-8 for more insight.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Look quasar, I'm not arguing that firstborn does not mean the first to be born the eldest. I'm trying to tell you that it also has another meaning which is "preeminence." How the word firstborn is used in the Greek/protokos depends on the context. Luke 2:7, "And she gave birth to her firstborn son;" This is literal birth.
Romans 8:29, "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become confromed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren: In the case the word means "preeminent.
Luke 2:23, "Every firstborn male that opens the womd shall be called Holy to the Lord. This is literal birth of the word.
Colossians 1:15, "He is the image of the invisible God the firstborn of all created. This means preeminent. I could go on and on with other examples but the point is that "firstborn" DOES NOT ALWAYS pertain to be birth or created as you believe. Which now brings me to Proverbs 8. Let me say first of all I AM NOT SAYING JESUS CHRIST IS THE PERSONIFICATION OF WISDOM. I'm saying that Proverbs 8 is NOT teaching that Jesus Christ is a crated being.
The Logos is not a creature as the Arians teach or the Son of God is a creature or the Son is the beginning of Gods creation. As I said before wisdom is intrinsic to God which means wisdom has always been with God. There was never a time when God was "wisdomless." Gods wisdom is "EXPRESSED" in creation and all of Gods works. If you don't believe me on this then check me out by using a lexicon of some of these words. And btw, I agree with all the scholars you mentioned and am very familar with their work. I do find it ironic that you quote them to support Jesus being created even though all of them are "Trnitarians?" Why don't you believe them on that subject quasar?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Romans 8:29, "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become confromed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren: In the case the word means "preeminent.
Luke 2:23, "Every firstborn male that opens the womd shall be called Holy to the Lord. This is literal birth of the word.
Colossians 1:15, "He is the image of the invisible God the firstborn of all created. This means preeminent. I could go on and on with other examples but the point is that "firstborn" DOES NOT ALWAYS pertain to be birth or created as you believe. Which now brings me to Proverbs 8. Let me say first of all I AM NOT SAYING JESUS CHRIST IS THE PERSONIFICATION OF WISDOM. I'm saying that Proverbs 8 is NOT teaching that Jesus Christ is a crated being.
The Logos is not a creature as the Arians teach or the Son of God is a creature or the Son is the beginning of Gods creation. As I said before wisdom is intrinsic to God which means wisdom has always been with God. There was never a time when God was "wisdomless." Gods wisdom is "EXPRESSED" in creation and all of Gods works. If you don't believe me on this then check me out by using a lexicon of some of these words. And btw, I agree with all the scholars you mentioned and am very familar with their work. I do find it ironic that you quote them to support Jesus being created even though all of them are "Trnitarians?" Why don't you believe them on that subject quasar?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
God bless
the first chapter of John. These verses predate the first verse in Genesis.
At that prehistoric time of the first verse of John 1, the Word was not (yet) the Son of God.
He divested himself of His glory as a spirit divinity to be begotten as a human person.
He was made God’s Son, through being begotten or sired by God and born of the virgin Mary.
John 1:1-4: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him [the Word]; and without him was not any thing
made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.”
Before the angels were created, before the universe or man were created,
God [and] the Word existed. Two Personages are revealed.
God and the Word. They were not yet at this point Father and Son.
There is no mention of the Holy Spirit!
The Word in John 1 is translated from the Greek word Logos and means “Spokesman.”
“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory,
the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”verse 14:
“The Word, then, is a Personage who was made flesh—begotten by God,
who through this later begettal became His Father.
The Word was made the Son of God when He was begotten by God of
the virgin Mary and later resurrected as the firstborn Son of God.
when the Word was made flesh, He was “begotten of the Father.”
The Word became the Son
Prior to becoming the Son, He was the Word. By Him, “all things were made”
Ephesians 3:9 says, “…?God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”
So it is revealed that God is the Creator, but He created all things through
the Word, or Spokesman, the one who became Jesus Christ.
Now move forward in time sequence to Genesis 1:1:
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
The Hebrew word translated ‘God’ is Elohim—a noun or name,
plural in form, but normally singular in grammatical usage.
It is the same sort of word as family, church, group—one family consisting of two
or more members—one church composed of many members—one group of several persons.
It is referring to precisely the same Persons, making up or composing the one God,
as we found in John 1:1—the Word and God—and each of those two Persons is God”
“And God [Elohim] said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness?…” (Genesis 1:26).
God said, “Let us”... after our likeness?…”—more than one.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God”—more than one.
God, who created all things by Jesus Christ”—more than one!
One of the two, the Word, became flesh. The other one,
God the Father, did not become flesh.
After Adam rebelled against God, Elohim said in Genesis 3:22:
“And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us..
Here, God not only says “us,” He says “one of us”! One of the “us”
was God the Father and the other one of the “us” was the Word.
If there was just one deity, why would one deity say to Himself, “ONE of us”?
-
In the New Testament, The word “son” is used 422 times alone.
In at least half of those instances, the word is referring to Jesus Christ
—the Son of God the Father.
The word “father” is used 352 times in the New Testament and,
in over 250 cases, it refers to God the Father. Father and Son—family!
“The names ‘Father’ and ‘Son’ do indicate a family relationship.”
God Is a Family and we are invited to join.
The Word was made flesh (John 1:14). In the flesh, Jesus was also God.
He was God converted to flesh (1?Timothy 3:16). Hebrews 2:14 says,
“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood,
he [Christ] also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death
he might destroy [annul] him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.”
His life was worth more than all other human beings combined.
When Jesus died, He was in the grave three days and three nights (Matthew 12:40)
the second person of the Godhead—Emmanuel—God with us—God made human flesh
—was dead!”
that Christ had given up His immortal life inherent in divine glory
and been converted into human mortality for the purpose of death.
the same God who made the Word flesh also raised Jesus Christ from the dead!
Acts 13:30 says, “But God raised him from the dead.”
-
Genesis 1:26: “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness?.…”
In verse 21 we see that God created the birds after their kind.
In verse 25 it says God made the beasts of the Earth after their kind, the cattle
after their kind and every thing that creeps upon the Earth after its kind.
At that prehistoric time of the first verse of John 1, the Word was not (yet) the Son of God.
He divested himself of His glory as a spirit divinity to be begotten as a human person.
He was made God’s Son, through being begotten or sired by God and born of the virgin Mary.
John 1:1-4: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him [the Word]; and without him was not any thing
made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.”
Before the angels were created, before the universe or man were created,
God [and] the Word existed. Two Personages are revealed.
God and the Word. They were not yet at this point Father and Son.
There is no mention of the Holy Spirit!
The Word in John 1 is translated from the Greek word Logos and means “Spokesman.”
“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory,
the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”verse 14:
“The Word, then, is a Personage who was made flesh—begotten by God,
who through this later begettal became His Father.
The Word was made the Son of God when He was begotten by God of
the virgin Mary and later resurrected as the firstborn Son of God.
when the Word was made flesh, He was “begotten of the Father.”
The Word became the Son
Prior to becoming the Son, He was the Word. By Him, “all things were made”
Ephesians 3:9 says, “…?God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”
So it is revealed that God is the Creator, but He created all things through
the Word, or Spokesman, the one who became Jesus Christ.
Now move forward in time sequence to Genesis 1:1:
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
The Hebrew word translated ‘God’ is Elohim—a noun or name,
plural in form, but normally singular in grammatical usage.
It is the same sort of word as family, church, group—one family consisting of two
or more members—one church composed of many members—one group of several persons.
It is referring to precisely the same Persons, making up or composing the one God,
as we found in John 1:1—the Word and God—and each of those two Persons is God”
“And God [Elohim] said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness?…” (Genesis 1:26).
God said, “Let us”... after our likeness?…”—more than one.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God”—more than one.
God, who created all things by Jesus Christ”—more than one!
One of the two, the Word, became flesh. The other one,
God the Father, did not become flesh.
After Adam rebelled against God, Elohim said in Genesis 3:22:
“And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us..
Here, God not only says “us,” He says “one of us”! One of the “us”
was God the Father and the other one of the “us” was the Word.
If there was just one deity, why would one deity say to Himself, “ONE of us”?
-
In the New Testament, The word “son” is used 422 times alone.
In at least half of those instances, the word is referring to Jesus Christ
—the Son of God the Father.
The word “father” is used 352 times in the New Testament and,
in over 250 cases, it refers to God the Father. Father and Son—family!
“The names ‘Father’ and ‘Son’ do indicate a family relationship.”
God Is a Family and we are invited to join.
The Word was made flesh (John 1:14). In the flesh, Jesus was also God.
He was God converted to flesh (1?Timothy 3:16). Hebrews 2:14 says,
“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood,
he [Christ] also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death
he might destroy [annul] him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.”
His life was worth more than all other human beings combined.
When Jesus died, He was in the grave three days and three nights (Matthew 12:40)
the second person of the Godhead—Emmanuel—God with us—God made human flesh
—was dead!”
that Christ had given up His immortal life inherent in divine glory
and been converted into human mortality for the purpose of death.
the same God who made the Word flesh also raised Jesus Christ from the dead!
Acts 13:30 says, “But God raised him from the dead.”
-
Genesis 1:26: “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness?.…”
In verse 21 we see that God created the birds after their kind.
In verse 25 it says God made the beasts of the Earth after their kind, the cattle
after their kind and every thing that creeps upon the Earth after its kind.
P
[FONT="]1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was[a] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
Here we have God the father.....creator
God the son.....the spoken word.
The holy spirit.....hovering.
Then the Lord said let us make man in our image.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
Here we have God the father.....creator
God the son.....the spoken word.
The holy spirit.....hovering.
Then the Lord said let us make man in our image.
[/FONT]
R
When we hear the word "FATHER" it means the Eternal Spirit of God. The Bible clearly states that there is only ONE SPIRIT..So The FATHER And The HOLY GHOST/SPIRIT are ONE AND THE SAME SPIRIT..not :"Two Persons" The "SON" is the visable manifestation of the Unseen Eternal Spirit of God...Same ONE GOD, in both Spirit and Flesh. God is called "The Lord" also..What is the Lord's Name?
When Saul (Apostle Paul) was struck blind by a bright light from heaven; he asked: "Who art thou LORD"? And THE LORD said; I AM JESUS WHOM THOU PERSECUTEST".
Now, let me address Genesis 1 Verse 26: God stated: "Let US make man in our image" It would appear that God was speaking to Jesus . Since Jesus was not created back then, then God was counselling with himself in his thoughts. There is a verse in our Bibles that says " He (God) Spoke of those things that were, ALL THOUGH THEY WERE NOT"[...QUOTE][/QUOTE]
When Saul (Apostle Paul) was struck blind by a bright light from heaven; he asked: "Who art thou LORD"? And THE LORD said; I AM JESUS WHOM THOU PERSECUTEST".
Now, let me address Genesis 1 Verse 26: God stated: "Let US make man in our image" It would appear that God was speaking to Jesus . Since Jesus was not created back then, then God was counselling with himself in his thoughts. There is a verse in our Bibles that says " He (God) Spoke of those things that were, ALL THOUGH THEY WERE NOT"[...QUOTE][/QUOTE]
The triunity of God is clearly taught in the Scriptures by the risen Jesus Christ.
He speaks of people being 'baptised in the (ONE) Name (YHWH) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit'. The placing of Son between Father and Spirit is conclusive. God has many titles but only one Name.
we may argue the background, we cannot argue with the facts.
He speaks of people being 'baptised in the (ONE) Name (YHWH) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit'. The placing of Son between Father and Spirit is conclusive. God has many titles but only one Name.
we may argue the background, we cannot argue with the facts.
R
Disagree...The Trinity is like a "Mirage" in a hot desert...You think you see a Pool of Water, and when you get to where you see it..it is not really there....The Truth is this: "The Titles" Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" are 3 offices or administrations of Almighty God
His name is Jesus Christ, AKA, "The Lord", "I AM" "YESHUA" etc, etc, etc....Jesus stated: "All power in heaven and earth is given unto me"
If you see this as The Son telling us HE HAS ALL THE POWER, Tells us if there really 3 persons in the Godhead, 2 of them have no power, sonce Jesus said he had all the power.
His name is Jesus Christ, AKA, "The Lord", "I AM" "YESHUA" etc, etc, etc....Jesus stated: "All power in heaven and earth is given unto me"
If you see this as The Son telling us HE HAS ALL THE POWER, Tells us if there really 3 persons in the Godhead, 2 of them have no power, sonce Jesus said he had all the power.