Can we get rid of the term free will for unbelievers?

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#61
Hi eternal,

I am glad Jesus died for the world aswell.. amen to that. But I don't think that he chose to save you based on your work of trust..

He did not. Trust is not a work. Work is something you can boast of. I can not boast of standing still and trusting on someone else do the work. In fact, it is against human nature to do this. So someone who does this would be (and is) considered a wimp. He certainly would not boast of it. And on the chance someone does do this, Their boasting is in the one who did the work. not in themselves.

that means his perfect work on the cross was not effective because it depended on you and your sin ridden nature that you where enslaved to...
Sorry my friend. But this makes no sense. He died so I could have the ability to chose. It does not depend on my sin riddled nature. my sin riddled nature is what got me condemned in the first place. And it is the REASON he died.
and not willing to choose until your blindness was lifted.

lol. If this is the case. then every man woman and child who was not chosen would have an excuse. Because their blindness was not lifted. Thus if God sent them to hell. he would be deemed an unrighteous judge.


I'm still wandering what your will is free from.. every one says free will.. but what is it fee from? what makes it 'free' is your will free from yourself your nature?
And again your asking the wrong question. Your question makes no sense. Again, It is as I asked earlier. Free will to do WHAT??

The sad fact is there is no man morally able to choose God..
Again this is wrong. Immoral man has chosen to trust God since the first sin.

Adam was immoral. He chose to trust God and admit he was in sin Same with all the other great men of God in the OT

man is lost in his slumber of death in sin, that is all men. The good news is that the cross is effectual to those God chose not because they are any better. the fact remains I am amazed God chose to save any for all deserve death its not based on my doing anything lest I boast. However, I can agree with you that I also chose to believe in Faith and repent :)

Man is unable to do good. But God gave them the ability to admit this sin, To admit they have no hope. and to admit they need someone else to save them (do ALL the work)

this is what Romans 1 says, and this was the purpose of the law. No man who chose to trust God did it because of some magic potion. they did it because the law did what it was intended to do. It led them to Christ. That was Gods plan from the beginning That WHOEVER has faith in him, will never perish, but HAS eternal life.

 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#62
Getting back to the OP - we cannot choose anything but sin outside of Christ, that is not free, that is slave will to sin
so we can;t chose to see the law and have it lead us to Christ?

then why did God give us the law. It would be useless.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#63
he had no choice to do Gods will. anyone that takes the time to read , cant deny that. weather you say yes or no, does not matter if you have no choice, then your chosen .

I rather go with how Paul said, it

Ephesians 1:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Your contradicting yourself because in one breath you say by their, actions they have a choice, and then you say God knew, because, after he forced them ( chosen ), then they said yes. That makes no logical sense.
Yet that is what you are saying

they had no choice, God forced them.

I say God did not forc e them, He chose them based on his knowledge of how they would react..


You have God as a dictator. He choses some to glory, some to damnation, not based on anything but his own desire.. This is what a dictator does..


I have God as a righteous king. He offers everyone the same blessing, He paid the price the needed to be paid for that blessing to be offered. Yet he does not force anyone to take it. He only gives it to those who see their need and desire to have it.
 

Josh321

Senior Member
Sep 3, 2013
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#64
actually i'm not too sure about free will after being set free from sin we become servants of God and his righteousness
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#65
He did not. Trust is not a work. Work is something you can boast of. I can not boast of standing still and trusting on someone else do the work. In fact, it is against human nature to do this. So someone who does this would be (and is) considered a wimp. He certainly would not boast of it. And on the chance someone does do this, Their boasting is in the one who did the work. not in themselves.



Sorry my friend. But this makes no sense. He died so I could have the ability to chose. It does not depend on my sin riddled nature. my sin riddled nature is what got me condemned in the first place. And it is the REASON he died.


lol. If this is the case. then every man woman and child who was not chosen would have an excuse. Because their blindness was not lifted. Thus if God sent them to hell. he would be deemed an unrighteous judge.




And again your asking the wrong question. Your question makes no sense. Again, It is as I asked earlier. Free will to do WHAT??



Again this is wrong. Immoral man has chosen to trust God since the first sin.

Adam was immoral. He chose to trust God and admit he was in sin Same with all the other great men of God in the OT



Man is unable to do good. But God gave them the ability to admit this sin, To admit they have no hope. and to admit they need someone else to save them (do ALL the work)

this is what Romans 1 says, and this was the purpose of the law. No man who chose to trust God did it because of some magic potion. they did it because the law did what it was intended to do. It led them to Christ. That was Gods plan from the beginning That WHOEVER has faith in him, will never perish, but HAS eternal life.



None of that makes any real biblical sense....

Im still confused what you think the 'will' is free from?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#66
None of that makes any real biblical sense....
of course not. when you are trained to think one way, you will not see it. Forgive me for being blunt, But you did not refute anything I said, or even show me where I may be wrong, all you did was attack. So expect the same response in return.

Im still confused what you think the 'will' is free from?
the question is confusing. free from what? that makes no sense.

free to do what is the question. why do you fight it??

1. The law, being a schoolmaster, is useless if there is no free will. Because no one could use the law for what it was intended to do. (biblical)
2. Jesus died for sinful men that whoever believes in him will have eternal life.

the law leads us to Christ. Christ leads us to hope.

2 choices.. Trust him and HIS work. Or trust self and be lost forever.
 
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nathan3

Guest
#67
Yet that is what you are saying

they had no choice, God forced them.

I say God did not forc e them, He chose them based on his knowledge of how they would react..


You have God as a dictator. He choses some to glory, some to damnation, not based on anything but his own desire.. This is what a dictator does..


I have God as a righteous king. He offers everyone the same blessing, He paid the price the needed to be paid for that blessing to be offered. Yet he does not force anyone to take it. He only gives it to those who see their need and desire to have it.
God does not dam people based solely on reaction for predestination God does not predestine to dam some one. That is Not written.

Why, because you can react negatively or positively all the way up until the lake of fire and then comes the 2nd death. God does not predestine to dame some one. that is not written.

Have you read Ezekiel 18 ?


What you have in the case of Paul, for example, is you have his action against God, but, yet God still chose him not by action here, but by his actions at the foundations of the age. your not taking that into account . For the will of God, Not to dam anyone. But to bring the Truth to the world.

When you say im painting God as a dictator, that shows your not paying attention to the details im providing in my post.
 
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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#68
of course not. when you are trained to think one way, you will not see it. Forgive me for being blunt, But you did not refute anything I said, or even show me where I may be wrong, all you did was attack. So expect the same response in return.



the question is confusing. free from what? that makes no sense.

free to do what is the question. why do you fight it??

1. The law, being a schoolmaster, is useless if there is no free will. Because no one could use the law for what it was intended to do. (biblical)
2. Jesus died for sinful men that whoever believes in him will have eternal life.

the law leads us to Christ. Christ leads us to hope.

2 choices.. Trust him and HIS work. Or trust self and be lost forever.

Hi eternal,

to say you have free will, must mean that will is free from something.. or else it is not free but controlled from something?

Before you can answer the question you put forward ie, Free to do what, you first have to answer what your free from so that you can be free to do what.

So why is your will 'free'? and what is it free from so that you can do what?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#69
Hi eternal,

to say you have free will, must mean that will is free from something.. or else it is not free but controlled from something?
You the one saying this. One who has free will is not controlled by anything. If it was controlled. It would not be free. WHich is why I continue to say your question makes no sense.

Before you can answer the question you put forward ie, Free to do what, you first have to answer what your free from so that you can be free to do what.
Again your wrong. If you are under control of ANYTHING, it would not be free. Thus you would be free from nothing, because there would be nothing to stop you.

So why is your will 'free'? and what is it free from so that you can do what?
Because God made us free will beings, One can not understand Gods love unless they are free to walk away from him, They can not understand Gods true nature unless they are free to reject it. One can not understand Gods true law unless he is free to break it. And they can not understand his true forgiveness unless they are free to reject it or accept it.
 

Josh321

Senior Member
Sep 3, 2013
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#70
Hi eternal,

to say you have free will, must mean that will is free from something.. or else it is not free but controlled from something?

Before you can answer the question you put forward ie, Free to do what, you first have to answer what your free from so that you can be free to do what.

So why is your will 'free'? and what is it free from so that you can do what?
Free will, your free to not sin anymore god has showed us that sin leads to death when he abides in us and he sets us free from the bondage of sin so we have a choice to not sin anymore
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#71
Free will, your free to not sin anymore god has showed us that sin leads to death when he abides in us and he sets us free from the bondage of sin so we have a choice to not sin anymore

Hi Josh, you are right Christ has set us free indeed :)
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#72
You the one saying this. One who has free will is not controlled by anything. If it was controlled. It would not be free. WHich is why I continue to say your question makes no sense.



Again your wrong. If you are under control of ANYTHING, it would not be free. Thus you would be free from nothing, because there would be nothing to stop you.



Because God made us free will beings, One can not understand Gods love unless they are free to walk away from him, They can not understand Gods true nature unless they are free to reject it. One can not understand Gods true law unless he is free to break it. And they can not understand his true forgiveness unless they are free to reject it or accept it.


Hi Eternal,

This does not make any real sense and is not biblical either.

What you are telling me is that who you are does not effect your choices.. that's crazy. you will always 'freely' choose from who you are.. That is different from having a will that is free from who you are!
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,330
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#73
Free will, your free to not sin anymore god has showed us that sin leads to death when he abides in us and he sets us free from the bondage of sin so we have a choice to not sin anymore
Ok, let us go with your statement........SO, what I read is, that YOU NEVER SIN? Not once since you came to Christ have you slipped and said or did something that you should not have? You are COMPLETELY FREE OF ALL SIN?

Ok, then, in all of History: Jesus and you............ congratulations! :):)

Man has always had the choice to sin, or to not sin, problem is, man is imperfect.........SO God gave man His salvation plan......Grace.......under Grace man is cleansed of his sinful past, and born anew. From that point on, man must remain true to the guidance of the Holy Spirit.........and, yes, he can certainly choose to not sin, just as he can choose to sin, OR he can unintentionally slip (sin of omission), and God's Grace is there to forgive him when he repents...........
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,330
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#74
Hi eternal,

to say you have free will, must mean that will is free from something.. or else it is not free but controlled from something?

Before you can answer the question you put forward ie, Free to do what, you first have to answer what your free from so that you can be free to do what.

So why is your will 'free'? and what is it free from so that you can do what?
free will is free from forced action.......meaning man has the will to freely choose his path........without being forced to follow one path or another regardless of his desires........that should be fairly easy to grasp........ :)
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,330
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#75
actually i'm not too sure about free will after being set free from sin we become servants of God and his righteousness
this comment does not make sense........ "after being set free from sin,"

we are reborn, a new man............and this is a spiritual rebirth......we become disciples of Jesus Christ.....and those who choose to repent and receive Grace are exercising their will (desire) freely.

The other argument is: That man had NO choice in the matter. Man was predestined (forced) to accept God's decision that he would receive eternal life regardless of his will (desire).
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#76
Getting back to the OP - we cannot choose anything but sin outside of Christ, that is not free, that is slave will to sin
How can this even possibly be considered true?

ALL WHO CHOOSE TO REPENT OF THEIR SINFUL LIVES ARE LIVING IN SIN WHEN THEY CHOOSE TO BELIEVE. AT THE TIME OF THEIR REPENTENCE, THEY ARE SURELY OUTSIDE OF CHRIST.

If you want to compare something to "slave will," you should read up on Calvin's theology of Predestination. Especially his T.U.L.I.P. message.........
 
Dec 25, 2009
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#77
So if Jesus never gives me faith then what happens to me when I die in your worldview?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#78
free will is free from forced action.......meaning man has the will to freely choose his path........without being forced to follow one path or another regardless of his desires........that should be fairly easy to grasp........ :)
Lol man certainly does follow his will, and that will is God hating and does not search for God nor will it....

Forced action is from outside of you.. Now tell me is your will free from your nature? Im sure that should be easy enough to grasp?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#79
Hi Eternal,

This does not make any real sense and is not biblical either.

What you are telling me is that who you are does not effect your choices.. that's crazy. you will always 'freely' choose from who you are.. That is different from having a will that is free from who you are!

Oh is this so?

People always chose against who they are.

If I chose who I was, I would still be a legalistic calvanistic person who did not understand the love of God.


Saul would have remained a pharisee

Mathew would have remained a tax collector.

Peter would still be a fisherman.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#80
Lol man certainly does follow his will, and that will is God hating and does not search for God nor will it....
lol.. That is where the law comes in. The law proves we need a savior. When we realises it, we do start to search for God. and if we are open, we may even find him.

It may take many many years. (as history shows) but if we are open, God will do what it takes to show us his way.

Another wonderfull thing about God. He knows what it will take for each of us, He also knows no matter what he does, many wull not follow. But they still will be condemned because "they did not believe" vs those who are saved, Because they "believe"


Forced action is from outside of you.. Now tell me is your will free from your nature? Im sure that should be easy enough to grasp?
Our nature is sin, God shows us our sin in his law. If we admit God is right, he will show us his gospel.

We have three choices.

1. Reject it outright
2. Recieve it, but add to it (works)
3. Accpet it in complete humility


If calvan was right, there would be two there

1. Reject it (because God will not allow you to see it)
2. Accept it (only after God open your mind)