Can we get rid of the term free will for unbelievers?
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E
How?
Because I interpret correctly.
Rom 9 is about God chosing a NATION. Not induviduals for salvation.
You can;t read the OT which paul quoted and take him out of context like calvanists do.
God did not chose to save one kid and condemn another. Read the passage. Two nations are in your womb.
God did not hate one kid and love another. He loved Isreal (nation) more than he loved Esau (edom)
Your taking things out of context and trying to interpret it in a salvation view. and not in the view Paul intended it to be seen.
Because I interpret correctly.
Rom 9 is about God chosing a NATION. Not induviduals for salvation.
You can;t read the OT which paul quoted and take him out of context like calvanists do.
God did not chose to save one kid and condemn another. Read the passage. Two nations are in your womb.
God did not hate one kid and love another. He loved Isreal (nation) more than he loved Esau (edom)
Your taking things out of context and trying to interpret it in a salvation view. and not in the view Paul intended it to be seen.
E
lol. No you scare me. You ignore what Romans 1 says, THEY DO KNOW WHO GOD IS AND WHO THEY ARE.. This is what Paul said, He was INSPIRED by God to write this, thus it is the words of God. If you are going to ignore this. and twist it. WHat else do you twist?
Call on the name of the lord. Anyone can do this. People who are not saved bu think they are because of a works bases system call on the name of God. they just do it the wrong way, But they understand their guilt. They just are trying to save themselves. and not seeing the grace of God.
19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
27And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel[SUP]c[/SUP] be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29And as Isaiah predicted,“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”
Israel’s Unbelief30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[SUP]d[/SUP] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written,“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
The context as a whole book
He hated esau it does not say I love him less - I am pretty sure that's twisting
Malachai 1:
2"I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have You loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob; 3but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness."
more into Romans I guess
[h=1]Romans 11:5–7[/h]
5 So too at the present time there is na remnant, chosen by grace. 6 oBut if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? pIsrael failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the restqwere hardened,
a plain reading - no twisting needed, not looking at the greek
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
27And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel[SUP]c[/SUP] be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29And as Isaiah predicted,“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”
Israel’s Unbelief30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[SUP]d[/SUP] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written,“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
The context as a whole book
He hated esau it does not say I love him less - I am pretty sure that's twisting
Malachai 1:
2"I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have You loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob; 3but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness."
more into Romans I guess
[h=1]Romans 11:5–7[/h]
5 So too at the present time there is na remnant, chosen by grace. 6 oBut if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? pIsrael failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the restqwere hardened,
a plain reading - no twisting needed, not looking at the greek
someone who "claims" to be a believer can still be a slave to sin. if anyone claims God has chosen grace for "me" and not for "you", is clearly still a slave to sin. if not a single action i do can bring "you" to that grace or move "me" from that grace, why bother teaching the bible at all? why do you even need to know about it if nothing we do has any impact on our salvation or on your salvation. any quotes of scripture from some who would claim such a thing is pointless. they argue scripture like a lawyer. they do this because they are a lawyer of words and not a witness of Spirit. if you never read a bible and asked Jesus for help you would experience whats taught in the bible.
duewell
mark 4 v 11-13
duewell
mark 4 v 11-13
E
1 It is obvious you do not know historical use of words. In the hebrew the word "hate" is not the same as our word hate. It also means "love less"
Examples. God tells us to love our spouses, and our parents. Jesus tells us if we do not HATE them, we can have no fellowship with him. Did God contradict himself? Or did he tell us literally., Unless we love them LESS than God etc!!
As for Malachi, That is speaking of kingdoms (The nation of Israel and the nation of Edom) not two kids that lived a few thousand years before it was written..
2. The context of Romans 9 is did God make a mistake choosing Israel to be his people. Not did God save or not save certain people like some people want to believe.
3. Rom 9 shows us (thus knocking down israels argument)
1. he chose them not based on their fathers righteousness. He chose them based on his will (Jacob's family line was chosen over esau's before they were even born.
2. he chose them to prove his mercy, this unbelieving rebellious nation proved Gods mercy, many many years he had mercy on them, when he could have just wiped them out
3. He put men in place he KNEW would do what he wanted them to do (pharoah) so he could prove to the world his power for his people
4. He continued to remake Israel, even though while he was molding them, THEY became distorted and twisted and he had to start over
The list goes on and on. Paul is answering Israels false claims, and the worlds dire question. Did God make a mistake?? NO..
It has NOTHING at all to do with the salvation or condemnation of any man or womans eternal souls.
Examples. God tells us to love our spouses, and our parents. Jesus tells us if we do not HATE them, we can have no fellowship with him. Did God contradict himself? Or did he tell us literally., Unless we love them LESS than God etc!!
As for Malachi, That is speaking of kingdoms (The nation of Israel and the nation of Edom) not two kids that lived a few thousand years before it was written..
2. The context of Romans 9 is did God make a mistake choosing Israel to be his people. Not did God save or not save certain people like some people want to believe.
3. Rom 9 shows us (thus knocking down israels argument)
1. he chose them not based on their fathers righteousness. He chose them based on his will (Jacob's family line was chosen over esau's before they were even born.
2. he chose them to prove his mercy, this unbelieving rebellious nation proved Gods mercy, many many years he had mercy on them, when he could have just wiped them out
3. He put men in place he KNEW would do what he wanted them to do (pharoah) so he could prove to the world his power for his people
4. He continued to remake Israel, even though while he was molding them, THEY became distorted and twisted and he had to start over
The list goes on and on. Paul is answering Israels false claims, and the worlds dire question. Did God make a mistake?? NO..
It has NOTHING at all to do with the salvation or condemnation of any man or womans eternal souls.
The single action of God opening the eyes of a believer in His calling - yes.
God chooses to use people as His instruments, I think you are referring to hyper-calvanism which is unbiblical.
All the more to pray, and be used in prayer or to witness and be used by your witnessing- to do the good works He has designed for us as we walk in them. All the more to place salvation in the Lords hands and not judge ourselves based on what we see. All the more to be dependent on Him and His grace.
Paul's writings were that of a lawyer, as he was a x Pharisee, expert in the law - methodical, logical and step-wise, but I guess that wasn't in witness by the Spirit.
Spirit of fear to be enslaved again yes
Do we still fear the Lord, assuming we started with the fear of the Lord in the first place, as a father and son, the son wants to please the father, the son learns to trust the father and become dependent on him, to revere him - But a baby starts with fear and as the baby matures the fear is cast out for love
But there is a real sense that I can't do what I want and not expect to be disciplined. Hebrews 12 says that God chastens and scourges ever son he receives. God will see you with cancer rather than be in disobedience, God will see you without a job, rather than see you in disobedience
Do you fear God for others? how can you not look at your own family and see the choices they make and so on and not fear for them, and plead your case to God for them
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God - I thank God for the fear of the Lord - for many a stupid decision on my part and the correction I have received
Do we still fear the Lord, assuming we started with the fear of the Lord in the first place, as a father and son, the son wants to please the father, the son learns to trust the father and become dependent on him, to revere him - But a baby starts with fear and as the baby matures the fear is cast out for love
But there is a real sense that I can't do what I want and not expect to be disciplined. Hebrews 12 says that God chastens and scourges ever son he receives. God will see you with cancer rather than be in disobedience, God will see you without a job, rather than see you in disobedience
Do you fear God for others? how can you not look at your own family and see the choices they make and so on and not fear for them, and plead your case to God for them
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God - I thank God for the fear of the Lord - for many a stupid decision on my part and the correction I have received
E
wow what kind of parent does that baby have.
a baby has no fear. he knows his parent love him, as he grows, through discipline, the baby is shown how to go the right way, but also allowed to make mistakes.. yet even then, the baby really does not have to fear.. unless his parents are evil.. he goes to his abba father, knowing he will disciplined, but in love..
this is what paul is describing.
a baby has no fear. he knows his parent love him, as he grows, through discipline, the baby is shown how to go the right way, but also allowed to make mistakes.. yet even then, the baby really does not have to fear.. unless his parents are evil.. he goes to his abba father, knowing he will disciplined, but in love..
this is what paul is describing.
I don't know how you can read the Old testament and not see that God chooses some to be saved, and destruction for others. I guess pharoh's men are in heaven, or all the armies that Israel wiped out.
It's no use talking with you anymore, you completely ignore all of Gods character for what you like.
God is righteous, just, wrathful, vengeful, jealous, love, hate, merciful. You cannot just ignore aspects of His character to suit what you prefer. God in His sum total is not one of these characteristics - God in the sum total of His being is Holiness -
we are not to be wrathful, hateful - because we are limited and short sighted
God has declared His Love and His wrath on the Cross of Jesus Christ - I guess if you don't preach the wrath part of the Cross you might be able to come up with some tares
Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of Hosts the whole earth is full of His Glory - Lift High the Lord, and give Him Glory
It's no use talking with you anymore, you completely ignore all of Gods character for what you like.
God is righteous, just, wrathful, vengeful, jealous, love, hate, merciful. You cannot just ignore aspects of His character to suit what you prefer. God in His sum total is not one of these characteristics - God in the sum total of His being is Holiness -
we are not to be wrathful, hateful - because we are limited and short sighted
God has declared His Love and His wrath on the Cross of Jesus Christ - I guess if you don't preach the wrath part of the Cross you might be able to come up with some tares
Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of Hosts the whole earth is full of His Glory - Lift High the Lord, and give Him Glory
E
What does that have to do with Romans 9?
Funny coming from a person who completely ignores context and the OT passages which are quoted by the author of romans. Should I trust them or you?
More importantly.
1. God is patient (proven by his dealing wiht nation of Israel)
2. God is love (proven by the fact he died for all men, and is not a respector of persons)
3. God is righteous and just (proven by the fact he keeps his promises.)
4. God is wrathfull, but again patient (proven by Israel, and the world today,)
I can go on and on and on.
lol. Now we go to attacks??
Yes he did declare his love, However, if he only declared in on a select group of induviduals (his elect) then he has not proven his love. He has only proven he is no better than some earthly dictator, who chooses for no reason to bless some, but others, he makes their lives miserable and enslaves them.
Declaring true love would mean dieing and taking wrath on behalf of all mankind, but not forcing people to accept his gift. He is justified in all ways, because the ones who trust him get to spend eternity with him, the ones who do not have no one to blame but themselves. he offered them, they rejected.
finally we can agree on something!
Funny coming from a person who completely ignores context and the OT passages which are quoted by the author of romans. Should I trust them or you?
More importantly.
1. God is patient (proven by his dealing wiht nation of Israel)
2. God is love (proven by the fact he died for all men, and is not a respector of persons)
3. God is righteous and just (proven by the fact he keeps his promises.)
4. God is wrathfull, but again patient (proven by Israel, and the world today,)
I can go on and on and on.
lol. Now we go to attacks??
Yes he did declare his love, However, if he only declared in on a select group of induviduals (his elect) then he has not proven his love. He has only proven he is no better than some earthly dictator, who chooses for no reason to bless some, but others, he makes their lives miserable and enslaves them.
Declaring true love would mean dieing and taking wrath on behalf of all mankind, but not forcing people to accept his gift. He is justified in all ways, because the ones who trust him get to spend eternity with him, the ones who do not have no one to blame but themselves. he offered them, they rejected.
finally we can agree on something!
B
There is only one more thing that we have to keep in mind and it has to do with any believer that could become carnal and backslide which could be for an hour, a day, a week, a month, a year or many years before they come back. What happens during that time in that state could be a number of different things which is illustrated in Luke 15 with the prodigal son, his riotous living and total bankruptcy. We do not make excuse or provision for sin but we do not condemn or reject those who respond to conviction in the heart and come back to receive grace and be restored.
God is patient - dealing with Israel and destroying others
God is patient - keeping the nation of Israel alive, but Jews perish without Christ
God forcing - this is the point for the talking
It's not like one day God just turned a switch - though it feels like that sometimes - if you think of bike pedals the left is you, the right is the Holy Spirit - it's the call of the Holy Spirit first - you play out the salvation that God has already declared - what this looks like is different for every elect person but the end result is the same
Everyone who knows the Lord can look at past events in their life where the Holy Spirit was drawing them to Himself, and one point in time where God turned the light on - their conversion lived out
Doctrines of Grace - give us supreme confidence in God, but also bring us to a total dependence on him. They make us steadfast in the purposes and Glory of God. Reflecting and setting our affections on things above: I know about 3-4 times just discussing about these where a revealed idea in my head astounded me and brought me to praise.
God is patient - keeping the nation of Israel alive, but Jews perish without Christ
God forcing - this is the point for the talking
It's not like one day God just turned a switch - though it feels like that sometimes - if you think of bike pedals the left is you, the right is the Holy Spirit - it's the call of the Holy Spirit first - you play out the salvation that God has already declared - what this looks like is different for every elect person but the end result is the same
Everyone who knows the Lord can look at past events in their life where the Holy Spirit was drawing them to Himself, and one point in time where God turned the light on - their conversion lived out
Doctrines of Grace - give us supreme confidence in God, but also bring us to a total dependence on him. They make us steadfast in the purposes and Glory of God. Reflecting and setting our affections on things above: I know about 3-4 times just discussing about these where a revealed idea in my head astounded me and brought me to praise.
ugh that's all I have to say - The greater context of Scripture broken down into Old and New Testament, further broken down into books, into chapters etc - The Bible as a whole, the Book of Romans in light of all of Scripture - God does not change: It's all of Grace.
He has only proven he is no better than some earthly dictator, who chooses for no reason to bless some, but others, he makes their lives miserable and enslaves them
it seems you think that people choose righteousness, that people love God on their own, or want to turn to Him on their own. If God did not elect people - no one would be saved- There is no one who does Good, there is no one who looks for God. People in hell right now, would not repent if given the chance.
Are you defining what true love is, and thus saying that God must have your definition of true love
True love, God's love is giving what we don't want, but what we need. We don't want Jesus Christ, we want our own works, and forgiveness with no need for God
E
yep. And this is a symbol, which proves how patient he is with all people , willing that NON should perish, but ALL should have eternal life.
Actually it looks the same for all people. This is the part you do not see..
Not so. No one I know had this experience. Yes there are times when the light bulb gets turned on and they understand. But even then, it does not mean they will make a decision. I know many who had this and never chose Christ. Everyone I know Knew God was real. And investigated to see if he was. Through experience with others, and the teaching of the word. They finally came to the point where they had to make a decision. Some said yes, And found a life of joy and peace. Others said no. They would wait, they were not ready yet. But they knew the truth, they could even tell you what it was.. Some of them eventually stopped looking altogether. Some finally said yes. And others went away only to return at a later time, saying they tried but could not find the joy we have, and would like to find it. Yet they wonder if God would ever forgive them. Thus where Gods patience comes in.
lol.. We both believe this. Don't doubt for a minute I have total dependance on Christ. i can do nothing on my own.. if it were not for his grace and forgiveness, I would still be a hopeless man looking to fill the part of my life only God can fulfill.
Actually it looks the same for all people. This is the part you do not see..
Not so. No one I know had this experience. Yes there are times when the light bulb gets turned on and they understand. But even then, it does not mean they will make a decision. I know many who had this and never chose Christ. Everyone I know Knew God was real. And investigated to see if he was. Through experience with others, and the teaching of the word. They finally came to the point where they had to make a decision. Some said yes, And found a life of joy and peace. Others said no. They would wait, they were not ready yet. But they knew the truth, they could even tell you what it was.. Some of them eventually stopped looking altogether. Some finally said yes. And others went away only to return at a later time, saying they tried but could not find the joy we have, and would like to find it. Yet they wonder if God would ever forgive them. Thus where Gods patience comes in.
lol.. We both believe this. Don't doubt for a minute I have total dependance on Christ. i can do nothing on my own.. if it were not for his grace and forgiveness, I would still be a hopeless man looking to fill the part of my life only God can fulfill.