Can we get rid of the term free will for unbelievers?

[Hoffco]

I think we need to be careful not to say that the unsaved can not do moral good deeds. Without the ability to obey laws, there can be no good society. Our justice system is based on the 10 commandments. My fathers' generation taught their children the moral laws of God and expected them to keep them. And my father was one of the most moral men alive. Whereas other men , some Baptist deacons were adulterers. It all depends on our upbring and the immediate society we lived in. This is not the same as loving God with our heart soul and mind. but their generation was more moral than ours. Farther more,We need to think of the Christian as having a "freed will" not enslaved to sin anymore but enslaved to God. Rom.3:22 "But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life." We can not be saved if we remain in any sin to havitually do it... One born of God does not do sin, Present tense continual sinning. 1Jh. 3:9 Love to God, Hoffco

 

[TheKringledOne]

He already knew who would listen and who wouldn't.

Then why did he allow the ones who wouldn't listen to be born? Especially knowing that they would suffer after death...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't think you have thought to well here.

If the unregenerate tries to be moral it is to please himself or to look good or to appease his conscience.. it is not moraly pleasing to God.. as unregenerate man can never choose morally good.

lol. You just proved my point.

They chose to do morally good. But with a heart that was apart from God. thus it is but bloody rags to God.

So if they can chose to do good. Is it not reasonable that they can chose to admit their "good" is not good enough? And they need a savior?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Scripture does warn if you continue in certain sins if you persevere in them - you ultimately show you don't have salvation. I think there is more to just one sin but one root sin that produces all sorts of bad fruit that defiles many

Be carefull, The corinthian church was caught up in all kinds of sexual sin, Yet Paul still called them brothers and sisters in Christ. And loved them. And helped them however he could.

It is not the sin I am questioning. I am questioning the churches response to it. No grace, No love, No help, just outright condemnation.

God does not make us "superchristians" the moment we are born again. Not all of us have the same "sin issue" We all have weeknesses we have to overcome. Granted, Mine might be a pride issue, and yours a sexual issue, But both of us need help. To love the one wiht pride and help him, and condemn the one struggling with sexual issues is not biblical. and not helping the newfound brother and sister in Christ overcome!

Judging is right - just judgement however - There is assurance of salvation - not assumption

Also what is going on with that sin - does the person believe wrongly that they are a slave to it? That they must not be saved because they are still trapped in that sin in the moment? A solid grace filled person can tell them - that he is basically giving God a standard of salvation, saying to Him that what Christ did on the Cross wasn't good enough. That's not counseling them to help them bear fruits of repentance - to hate and kill their sin

thus my point. We all need help with sin issues. If we judge them and tell them they must not be saved, We are doing nothing to help them, And eventually they will walk away. Not because they hated God. but because they figured they could not be saved, why bother trying..

this is the danger of legalism!

 

[thecreationtutor]

Be carefull, The corinthian church was caught up in all kinds of sexual sin, Yet Paul still called them brothers and sisters in Christ. And loved them. And helped them however he could.

It is not the sin I am questioning. I am questioning the churches response to it. No grace, No love, No help, just outright condemnation.

you didn't really give specifics of what they did, so that's hard to say. If in counseling, for instance, a married woman, in an adulterous relationship she doesn't see anything wrong, and wants to keep doing it, the Pastor says to her if you persevere in this sin, you will go to hell to her face. Woman get's the hell scared out of her repents, repents to her husband, 10 years later is still faithful to her husband.

This is a story I heard from John Piper, who told this with a letter from the woman 10 years later. Now was that loving - yes. Sometimes we need to be told straight to our face - having that discernment to know when is important

Yes Corinth was in extreme sexual sin like america is, Paul refers to those sins, not if you were to sin one time, but if you persevere in that sin, if you are always enslaved, you never get victory, you never kill it in your life, ultimately it could be, that you never had real salvation.

What is enslavement - imaging your an alcoholic and you in worldly sorrow say "darn it, I did it again" and you drown your sorrows in the very sin your upset at doing - that's enslavement

The saint will persevere, the tare will either persevere or fall away eventually.

The person who figures they can't be saved, but really is - God will bring them back, if they never come back - it shows they were a tare: that's why we can have faith that He who began a good work will continue it

 

[thecreationtutor]

Then why did he allow the ones who wouldn't listen to be born? Especially knowing that they would suffer after death...

That could assume that it isn't right to do such a thing this is why - romans 9:

22 [n]What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

 

[thecreationtutor]

lol. You just proved my point.

They chose to do morally good. But with a heart that was apart from God. thus it is but bloody rags to God.

So if they can chose to do good. Is it not reasonable that they can chose to admit their "good" is not good enough? And they need a savior?

There not choosing what is morally right to God, maybe to man, there is always the motive to gain something from the choice - morally incapable, physically able

 

[in2it]

Then why did he allow the ones who wouldn't listen to be born? Especially knowing that they would suffer after death...

33Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!
34For who can know the Lord’s thoughts?
Who knows enough to give him advice?[SUP]l[/SUP]
35And who has given him so much
that he needs to pay it back?[SUP]m[/SUP]
36For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.
[HR][/HR]

 

[thecreationtutor]

Could it possible be we have this idea that God needs us?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There not choosing what is morally right to God, maybe to man, there is always the motive to gain something from the choice - morally incapable, physically able

hmm. Is it not in our best interest to gain eternal life? even if it is a gift we can not earn?

 

[thecreationtutor]

hmm. Is it not in our best interest to gain eternal life? even if it is a gift we can not earn?

it most certainly is - but people are blind, and it is a gift we didn't earn - somehow God gave us mercy - and I really don't understand why - it boggles my mind

 

[eternally-gratefull]

it most certainly is - but people are blind, and it is a gift we didn't earn - somehow God gave us mercy - and I really don't understand why - it boggles my mind

yes. people are blind. at to how to be good. But Paul tells us in romans 1 they are NOT blind to who God is. They are NOT blind to what God has against us, and his righteous standard. And NOT blind as to the gift he is offering us.

The people who reject reject because they have hid what is plainly seen to them in their heart, and reject it. Thus they will have no excuse. Because they KNOW what God has shown every one of us..

The mercy God has shown is his love for us. Yes hard for us to know why. But we can know it, as can every man woman and child who is ever born.

 

[thecreationtutor]

yes. people are blind. at to how to be good. But Paul tells us in romans 1 they are NOT blind to who God is. They are NOT blind to what God has against us, and his righteous standard. And NOT blind as to the gift he is offering us.

The people who reject reject because they have hid what is plainly seen to them in their heart, and reject it. Thus they will have no excuse. Because they KNOW what God has shown every one of us..

The mercy God has shown is his love for us. Yes hard for us to know why. But we can know it, as can every man woman and child who is ever born.

is that what scripture says? compared to what i posted in the OP?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

is that what scripture says? compared to what i posted in the OP?

Have you read romans 1?

 

[thecreationtutor]

Have you read romans 1?

if you have read romans 1 in light of the whole book

people suppress the truth in unrighteousness - a slave to sin - people know in their heart of heart - they are physically able to do what God says but because of their blindness suppressed in unrighteousness, as a result from being a slave to sin, sold into sin - morally unable

which ties into all of romans

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am beginning to wonder if you have

people suppress the truth in unrighteousness - a slave to sin - people know in their heart of heart - they are physically able to do what God says but because of their blindness suppressed in unrighteousness, as a result from being a slave to sin, sold into sin - morally unable

which ties into all of romans

It is obvious you have not read at all

[SUP]19 [/SUP]because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Everything that can be Known about God, Including being condemned for sin, The Law. His righteousness and Love, and his gospel has been shown to them. It is manifest (in the greek is CLEARLY SEEN) In or by them, It is NOT HIDDEN like some want to believe! It is not only clearly seen by them, But understood. They have NO EXCUSE!

If your right, and God his the truth from them. THEY HAVE AN EXCUSE!


[SUP]32 [/SUP]who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death,

They also KNOW they are deserving of eternal condemnation. No Excuse.

 

[thecreationtutor]

It is obvious you have not read at all

[SUP]19 [/SUP]because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Everything that can be Known about God, Including being condemned for sin, The Law. His righteousness and Love, and his gospel has been shown to them. It is manifest (in the greek is CLEARLY SEEN) In or by them, It is NOT HIDDEN like some want to believe! It is not only clearly seen by them, But understood. They have NO EXCUSE!

If your right, and God his the truth from them. THEY HAVE AN EXCUSE!


[SUP]32 [/SUP]who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death,

They also KNOW they are deserving of eternal condemnation. No Excuse.

They may know, but they are still unable to choose God. Please read the rest of the book of Romans and the rest of scripture. People know, but the actively reject, because they don't believe, they can't believe, for they are blind to it's reality. This further also condemns people who have not heard the Gospel for they know that God exists but they cannot morally choose God - God gave us up at Adam to the sin nature.

Later in Romans 3: None is righteous, no not one, no one understand, no one seeks after God... no one does good, not even one... There is no fear of God in before their eyes - oh everyone knows there is a God, but in their blindness they cannot morally respond to that

Romans 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness(slave to sin, no one chooses good/righteousness) - I just like this verse

hmm interesting Romans 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members

a blind person only has the law waging war making him captive to the law of sin

Romans 8 :5 on
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh... For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God

Loaded - Flesh is hostile to God - it does not come to God or His law - so that means they know that there is a law but are unable to morally choose it

If I am hostile to God, how can I please God when all I am is flesh? - I cannot submit to God's law of faith

hmm the rest of Romans 8 - foreknew, predestined, called, glorified, justified

Revelations 13:8 everyone whose name had not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb who was slain. hmmm that's interesting because Jesus was definitely predestined to be slain


Romans 9:15 I will have mercy on whom I have mercy

Romans 9:22 What if God, desiring to make His wrath and to make known his power, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. In order to make know the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for his glory

Hmmmm God ultimately created people to be destroyed, and people to have mercy on - for His Glory

I think this enough, from the whole of the book of Romans, your just not right

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They may know, but they are still unable to choose God. Please read the rest of the book of Romans and the rest of scripture. People know, but the actively reject, because they don't believe, they can't believe, for they are blind to it's reality. This further also condemns people who have not heard the Gospel for they know that God exists but they cannot morally choose God - God gave us up at Adam to the sin nature.

Later in Romans 3: None is righteous, no not one, no one understand, no one seeks after God... no one does good, not even one... There is no fear of God in before their eyes - oh everyone knows there is a God, but in their blindness they cannot morally respond to that

Romans 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness(slave to sin, no one chooses good/righteousness) - I just like this verse

hmm interesting Romans 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members

a blind person only has the law waging war making him captive to the law of sin

Romans 8 :5 on
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh... For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God

Loaded - Flesh is hostile to God - it does not come to God or His law - so that means they know that there is a law but are unable to morally choose it

If I am hostile to God, how can I please God when all I am is flesh? - I cannot submit to God's law of faith

hmm the rest of Romans 8 - foreknew, predestined, called, glorified, justified

Revelations 13:8 everyone whose name had not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb who was slain. hmmm that's interesting because Jesus was definitely predestined to be slain


Romans 9:15 I will have mercy on whom I have mercy

Romans 9:22 What if God, desiring to make His wrath and to make known his power, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. In order to make know the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for his glory

Hmmmm God ultimately created people to be destroyed, and people to have mercy on - for His Glory

I think this enough, from the whole of the book of Romans, your just not right

l

nice twist.

Nothing you said is biblical. just taking a bunch of things out of context.

God so loved the world he gave his only son, whoever believes in him will not perish but has eternal life.

call on the name of the lord and YOU WILL BE SAVED.

these words are meaningless if you are right.

Rom 1 is clear. THEY KNOW GOD. THEY KNOW THEY ARE RIGHTLY CONDEMNED. AND THEY KNOW WHO AND WHAT GOD IS (the Gospel) GOD MADE IT CLEAR TO THEM.

He did not hide it from them. THEY HID IT FROM THEMSELVES.. So he ALLOWED them to do it, and GAVE them over to a debased mind. He did not do it to them, THEY DID IT TO THEMSELVES>

Again, You did not read at all..

 

[thecreationtutor]

Romans 9: 10

Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[SUP]d[/SUP] 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[SUP]e[/SUP]14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[SUP]f[/SUP]

16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[SUP]g[/SUP] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”[SUP]h[/SUP] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?


Come on man how can you read that, and come to your conclusion?

 

[thecreationtutor]

l

nice twist.

Nothing you said is biblical. just taking a bunch of things out of context.

God so loved the world he gave his only son, whoever believes in him will not perish but has eternal life.

call on the name of the lord and YOU WILL BE SAVED.

these words are meaningless if you are right.

Rom 1 is clear. THEY KNOW GOD. THEY KNOW THEY ARE RIGHTLY CONDEMNED. AND THEY KNOW WHO AND WHAT GOD IS (the Gospel) GOD MADE IT CLEAR TO THEM.

He did not hide it from them. THEY HID IT FROM THEMSELVES.. So he ALLOWED them to do it, and GAVE them over to a debased mind. He did not do it to them, THEY DID IT TO THEMSELVES>

Again, You did not read at all..

Wow - you scare me if you think all i do is call upon the Lord - with absolutely no knowledge of who He is, or who I am, with my guilt of sin. This is why the unbeliever does not call upon the Lord, because he has no sense of his guilt, of his crime, of the Holiness of God, and what Christ has done, because it is foolishness to him, as he is blind to the Gospel