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S
This is totally off topic. But I came across this verse again in Proverbs. Every time I see it I'm astounded. It so CLEARLY is speaking God the Father and His only Son, Jesus Christ. And it's such a cool verse! Must share.
[h=3]Proverbs 30:4 [/h] Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Surely you know!
[h=3]Proverbs 30:4 [/h] Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Surely you know!
M
With all due respect, saying all those letters were written to scattered Israelites is a bunch of bull. The Bible says specifically that after the Jews initial rejection of Jesus the focus turned to ministering to the Gentiles.
Romans 11
11 I ask, then, hhas God rejected his people? By no means! For iI myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham,1 a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 jGod has not rejected his people whom he kforeknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 l“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God’s reply to him? m“I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is na remnant, chosen by grace. 6 oBut if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.7 What then? pIsrael failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest qwere hardened, 8 as it is written,r“God gave them a spirit of stupor,seyes that would not seeand ears that would not hear,down to this very day.”9 And David says,t“Let their table become a snare and a trap,a stumbling block and a retribution for them; 10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,and bend their backs forever.”Gentiles Grafted In11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass usalvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion2 mean!13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as vI am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and wthus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection meansxthe reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 yIf the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. But if zsome of the branches were broken off, and you, aalthough a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root3 of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you bstand fast through faith. So cdo not become proud, but dfear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you,eprovided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise fyou too will be cut off. 23 And geven they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:4 ia partial hardening has come upon Israel, juntil the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
k“The Deliverer will come lfrom Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my mcovenant with them
nwhen I take away their sins.”
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are obeloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and pthe calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as qyou were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now5 receive mercy. 32 For Godrhas consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches and swisdom and knowledge of God!tHow unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34 “For uwho has known the mind of the Lord,
or vwho has been his counselor?”
35 “Or wwho has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
36 For xfrom him and through him and to him are all things. yTo him be glory forever. Amen.
Romans 11
11 I ask, then, hhas God rejected his people? By no means! For iI myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham,1 a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 jGod has not rejected his people whom he kforeknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 l“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God’s reply to him? m“I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is na remnant, chosen by grace. 6 oBut if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.7 What then? pIsrael failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest qwere hardened, 8 as it is written,r“God gave them a spirit of stupor,seyes that would not seeand ears that would not hear,down to this very day.”9 And David says,t“Let their table become a snare and a trap,a stumbling block and a retribution for them; 10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,and bend their backs forever.”Gentiles Grafted In11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass usalvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion2 mean!13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as vI am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and wthus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection meansxthe reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 yIf the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. But if zsome of the branches were broken off, and you, aalthough a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root3 of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you bstand fast through faith. So cdo not become proud, but dfear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you,eprovided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise fyou too will be cut off. 23 And geven they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:4 ia partial hardening has come upon Israel, juntil the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
k“The Deliverer will come lfrom Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my mcovenant with them
nwhen I take away their sins.”
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are obeloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and pthe calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as qyou were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now5 receive mercy. 32 For Godrhas consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches and swisdom and knowledge of God!tHow unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34 “For uwho has known the mind of the Lord,
or vwho has been his counselor?”
35 “Or wwho has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
36 For xfrom him and through him and to him are all things. yTo him be glory forever. Amen.
1 John 2:1-3
1My little children, these things write I to you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. …
Galations 3:6-28
26For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 2:7-9
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
[SUP]8 [/SUP](For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Frankly Yaduadah, there are so many verses that make it clear that all humanity needs a savior, I don't know where to start. I'm sure I already posted some on this thread. We're all descendents of Adam anyway. If we believe that we all know the difference between right and wrong, why in the world wouldn't we be responsible for doing right and responsible for our sins when we do wrong? Again, we're all fallen. Have you ever met anyone that doesn't know without being told that murder is wrong? We all know in our hearts what is right and wrong. That's the difference between us and the animals.
1My little children, these things write I to you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. …
Galations 3:6-28
26For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 2:7-9
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
[SUP]8 [/SUP](For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Frankly Yaduadah, there are so many verses that make it clear that all humanity needs a savior, I don't know where to start. I'm sure I already posted some on this thread. We're all descendents of Adam anyway. If we believe that we all know the difference between right and wrong, why in the world wouldn't we be responsible for doing right and responsible for our sins when we do wrong? Again, we're all fallen. Have you ever met anyone that doesn't know without being told that murder is wrong? We all know in our hearts what is right and wrong. That's the difference between us and the animals.
True! we are all sons and daughters of Adam, but god separated the nations and chose one to establish his covenant and laws. And we know the gentiles did not receive any laws from the god of Israel. If sin is the transgression of the law, why do the gentiles whom were not given any laws need to be saved? if they were not under the law then what do they need to be saved from?
Also, do you think these two scriptures contradict each other?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world,
I am very familiar with Romans 11 and I don't think you seem to understand what Paul is saying here but I will feed you the understanding of it.
you said the Jews rejected Christ and salvation was shifted to the gentiles, no that is not correct. Not all the Jews rejected Christ just the majority, Paul himself is saying I am an Israelite and the Jews are not done away with. And he is warning the gentiles telling them not to graft themselves in and boast against the natural branches saying things like I am a spiritual Israelite. After all Christ says salvation is of the Jews and we know in revelation 21 the kingdom of heaven is strictly only for the 12 tribes of Israel.
Romans 11: 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy[SUP]12[/SUP] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
[SUP]13[/SUP] For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
[SUP]14[/SUP] If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Now Paul is saying here salvation is come to the gentiles, because of the fall of the Israelites the riches of the world has come to the gentiles.
So obviously Israel did fall in 70AD right before Christ told them "when you see Jerusalem compass with armies flee into the mountains and know that the desolation of abomination is near". After Rome sacked Jerusalem Israel fell and ran into all nations fleeing from Roman persecution till today. In Deuteronomy 28:68 it will tell you that Israel will go into captivity again in ships and would be scattered from the four corners of the earth and would stop continuing in there heritage. and that did not happen to Israel anywhere in the old testament. Israel today is the poor of the earth as prophesied and salvation has come to the gentiles because of their fall. Even Christ says this Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
And yes we are in the time of the gentiles and because of our fall salvation meaning the riches of the world has come to them.
But don't get me wrong the gentiles can be saved, but I don't think you wanna for what?
you said the Jews rejected Christ and salvation was shifted to the gentiles, no that is not correct. Not all the Jews rejected Christ just the majority, Paul himself is saying I am an Israelite and the Jews are not done away with. And he is warning the gentiles telling them not to graft themselves in and boast against the natural branches saying things like I am a spiritual Israelite. After all Christ says salvation is of the Jews and we know in revelation 21 the kingdom of heaven is strictly only for the 12 tribes of Israel.
Romans 11: 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy[SUP]12[/SUP] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
[SUP]13[/SUP] For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
[SUP]14[/SUP] If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Now Paul is saying here salvation is come to the gentiles, because of the fall of the Israelites the riches of the world has come to the gentiles.
So obviously Israel did fall in 70AD right before Christ told them "when you see Jerusalem compass with armies flee into the mountains and know that the desolation of abomination is near". After Rome sacked Jerusalem Israel fell and ran into all nations fleeing from Roman persecution till today. In Deuteronomy 28:68 it will tell you that Israel will go into captivity again in ships and would be scattered from the four corners of the earth and would stop continuing in there heritage. and that did not happen to Israel anywhere in the old testament. Israel today is the poor of the earth as prophesied and salvation has come to the gentiles because of their fall. Even Christ says this Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
And yes we are in the time of the gentiles and because of our fall salvation meaning the riches of the world has come to them.
But don't get me wrong the gentiles can be saved, but I don't think you wanna for what?
E
Im not sure why some claim to be the gentile but I know christ said his disciples go unto the gentiles
As for saying they dont have the law I beleive what christ said.
The new Jerusalem is for the jews this is where christ said he shall be there god and they shall be his people. In revelations. The new Jerusalem desends adorned as a bride.
The tree of life is for all nations and kingdreds and peoples and tongues. The tree of mana is for whomsoever shall eat freely. The river of everlasting life that procedeth out of the mouth of the thrown of god. The two trees on either side of the road bearing twelve manner of fruits the leaves ofwhich are for the healing of the nations. Christ said he who overcomes he shall make a pillar in the temple of my god. Christ said I shall be his god and he shall be my son. Theccreatures at the thrown.
As for saying they dont have the law I beleive what christ said.
The new Jerusalem is for the jews this is where christ said he shall be there god and they shall be his people. In revelations. The new Jerusalem desends adorned as a bride.
The tree of life is for all nations and kingdreds and peoples and tongues. The tree of mana is for whomsoever shall eat freely. The river of everlasting life that procedeth out of the mouth of the thrown of god. The two trees on either side of the road bearing twelve manner of fruits the leaves ofwhich are for the healing of the nations. Christ said he who overcomes he shall make a pillar in the temple of my god. Christ said I shall be his god and he shall be my son. Theccreatures at the thrown.
I am very familiar with Romans 11 and I don't think you seem to understand what Paul is saying here but I will feed you the understanding of it.
Let me give you some understanding on this scripture.
Paul himself is saying I am an Israelite and the Jews are not done away with. And he is warning the gentiles telling them not to graft themselves in and boast against the natural branches saying things like I am a spiritual Israelite. After all Christ says salvation is of the Jews and we know in revelation 21 the kingdom of heaven is strictly only for the 12 tribes of Israel.
Romans 11: 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy[SUP]12[/SUP] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
[SUP]13[/SUP] For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
[SUP]14[/SUP] If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Now Paul is saying here salvation is come to the gentiles, because of the fall of the Israelites the riches of the world has come to the gentiles.
So obviously Israel did fall in 70AD right before Christ told them "when you see Jerusalem compass with armies flee into the mountains and know that the desolation of abomination is near". After Rome sacked Jerusalem Israel fell and ran into all nations fleeing from Roman persecution till today. In Deuteronomy 28:68 it will tell you that Israel will go into captivity again in ships and would be scattered from the four corners of the earth and would stop continuing in there heritage. and that did not happen to Israel anywhere in the old testament. Israel today is the poor of the earth as prophesied and salvation has come to the gentiles because of their fall. Even Christ says this Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
And yes we are in the time of the gentiles and because of our fall salvation meaning the riches of the world has come to them.
But don't get me wrong the gentiles can be saved, but I don't think you wanna for what?
E
The time is at hand. Those that accept the mark of the beast and those that are wailing in the steets crying babaliony babaliony mystery the great has fallen have their Gods name abadon in their forheads while he who overcomes will be given a white rock with a name that no man knows save he who receive it. In any case I feel we must keep those things in revelations. seems jesus gave freely. I do not fear evil. The scribes and pharsees were miss leading. Christ said to the angel of the church that thou hatest that ofThe nicoliatians which things i also hate. I knowest thy works that thou hast labored and have not fainted and hast tried them that say they are jews and are not and hast found them liars andare of the synogogs of satin But i have little against thee that thou keepeth some of them whith teachings baalm and balaak.
Christ never said "I will be there god and they shall be my people" The father did, the most high the god of Israel.
"The tree of life is for all nations and kingdreds and peoples and tongues. The tree of mana is for whomsoever shall eat freely. The river of everlasting life that procedeth out of the mouth of the thrown of god. The two trees on either side of the road bearing twelve manner of fruits the leaves ofwhich are for the healing of the nations. Christ said he who overcomes he shall make a pillar in the temple of my god. Christ said I shall be his god and he shall be my son. Theccreatures at the thrown".
What scripture are you quoting from?
"The tree of life is for all nations and kingdreds and peoples and tongues. The tree of mana is for whomsoever shall eat freely. The river of everlasting life that procedeth out of the mouth of the thrown of god. The two trees on either side of the road bearing twelve manner of fruits the leaves ofwhich are for the healing of the nations. Christ said he who overcomes he shall make a pillar in the temple of my god. Christ said I shall be his god and he shall be my son. Theccreatures at the thrown".
What scripture are you quoting from?
M
The Mosaic law does not still stand. HOWEVER, the scriptures delineate God's law for present-day Christians. Violation of these directives is punishable- for both Jews and Gentiles. God is not a respecter of persons. He can't let ANYONE into heaven that is not perfect... and we are made perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works through Christ. Christ is God.
2 thess 2:15, also educate yourselves on the entire john 6. some very beautiful scripture. I love the Catholic Church and would like for a lot of protestants to keep an open mind. ive received a lot of hatred from people on this website just from being catholic and its a very disturbing thing. I love the rich tradition of my church and I know its been celebrated the same for longer than any other "church" or establishment known to man kind. instead of arguing between one another whats wrong and whats right, visit catholic.com. it has an answer to just about everything. when it comes to arguing on a website with people you don't know and don't affect you I believe it becomes a pride centered drive to have the right answer to everything. just give it a look and be humble Catholic.com
Some say he is and some say he is not according to scripture, they are wrong and right. According to the scriptures Christ is not the father he is the son, but he is a god under the father and I will show you how out of the Scriptures.
John10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Christ was going around saying I am god and son of god, then the Jews got mad at him for saying that. Then he quoted from psalm 82:6 in the old testament reminding the Jews they are gods and sons of the most high. The word Israel itself means princes of god. So all of Israel are gods and or sons of the father according to scripture. So when scriptures refer Christ as god he is, but he's the son not the father so it won't be a contradiction when he says my father who is in heaven or when he prays to the father.
John10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Christ was going around saying I am god and son of god, then the Jews got mad at him for saying that. Then he quoted from psalm 82:6 in the old testament reminding the Jews they are gods and sons of the most high. The word Israel itself means princes of god. So all of Israel are gods and or sons of the father according to scripture. So when scriptures refer Christ as god he is, but he's the son not the father so it won't be a contradiction when he says my father who is in heaven or when he prays to the father.
By the same token the way you see Calvinism may be seen as the doctrine of demons. You have a skewed perspective resulting from your indoctrination into Calvinism. The catholic has a skewed vision because of his indoctrination into catholic tradition. Last time I checked two wrongs did not make a right.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
S
That's is the most backwards interpretation of those scriptures I've ever seen. Paul is speaking to the Gentiles, it says that. The gentiles who accept Christ are clearly grafted into the vine. However, the gentiles are not to boast against the branches. Grafted in branches can much more easily be removed from the vine than those branches natural to that vine, which were Jews, and since God removed those Jews that failed to recognize His son, God will even more readily remove gentiles grafted in that do not remain true to God's word through His son. But gentiles are the grafted in branches. Clearly, you do NOT understand that. Jews that do eventually come to Christ will be grafted back into that vine, and easily, because they were originally native to the vine.
Keep your understanding. It is clearly a total misunderstanding of scriptures, but as I so often see in here, the people so absolutely sure of their understanding of the scriptures that they assert authority over everyone elses are most generally absolutely wrong in their interpretations.
Keep your understanding. It is clearly a total misunderstanding of scriptures, but as I so often see in here, the people so absolutely sure of their understanding of the scriptures that they assert authority over everyone elses are most generally absolutely wrong in their interpretations.
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