Colossians 2.

[Studyman]

=valiant;3382427

]No, and the word of God says that the Sabbath was given to ISRAEL

Yes, that is your teaching, and the preaching of the mainstream preachers of out time.

27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.

So once again valiant, you are shown as preaching against what Jesus teaches. He doesn't mention Israel. You do, the Pope does, but Jesus does not.

No, and the letters in the New Testament ignore the Sabbath Day.

The Sabbath was mentioned in the New Testament 55 times. Jesus said it was made for man, and that he was the Lord of it.

Once more you preach one thing, the Bible preaches another.

GOD first gave the Sabbath to Israel (Exod 16). When Jesus said it was 'made for man' He relegated it. He meant for man to benefit by while it was in use. But He Himself never ONCE taught Sabbath Observance.

"How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days."

Gen. 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God (Jesus) blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Once again in order to defend your religious tradition of rejecting God's Sabbaths, you must ignore much of God's Word. there is not one place in the Entire Bible that "relegates" His Commandments including the Sabbath Jesus created for you that you ignore.

If you do you will have to accept His teaching, which relegated it.,

Your teaching relegates it, the Popes teaching relegates it, but God's words do not.

No, man DID need the Sabbath as a rest day. But the need has gone with slavery,

Once again, Jesus preached just the opposite.

Matt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

which teachings. He never taught observance of the Sabbath.

I'm talking about the Jesus of the Bible, not the one you all have created in the likeness of man. To say Jesus taught for us to reject God's Commandments, any of them, is a blatant falsehood. You preach a different Jesus than that of the Bible.

Why is it needful? What is needful is that we observe one day or all days to the Lord.

Rom. 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

It is of no consequence to me what one man thinks, or another man thinks. Jesus created His Salvation plan not you or the Pope. "Let each man be fully convinced in their own mind, do we listen to you or the Pope, or do we listen to God?

But we do understand His reasoning although we do not reject GOD's word

No! You don't, you can't as it is written.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Since you have seen the Commandment, and have made a conscience decision to reject it, then you can not "SEE". This is how you can make all these statement that have no truth in them, and not be ashamed.

So the reality has replaced the shadow,

In your mind, as Paul said:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

 

[posthuman]

So who then, is the adulterous wife? Is she the one who creates images of God after the likeness of some Play Girl centerfold, or some men's hair shampoo model?

do you really not know?

read Ezekiel 16, Hosea 2.

 

[posthuman]

do you really not know?

read Ezekiel 16, Hosea 2.

He made Israel His wife.

Hebrew marriage follows a 12-step pattern, and that pattern is all over scripture. part of the pattern is a "covenant" - that the groom presents to the betrothed, and she must agree to. that is the Law given through Moses, the marriage covenant of the Father and Israel.

"It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,"
declares the LORD.
(Jeremiah 31:32)​

see what He references? a covenant - specifically a marriage covenant - that is broken. see the epistle to the Hebrews. broken. passed away and replaced with a much better covenant. a different Law and a different priesthood. what Christ does in the NT is begin this same 12-step betrothal ceremony with us, with a new covenant - as He calls the cup and the bread, His body and blood.
Israel goes all the way through the ceremony, every step including consummation of it - and then whores herself out, and breaks it.
we are in the middle of the ceremony - waiting for the Groom to snatch up His Bride "at a day and hour which only the Father knows" -- do you really think omniscient God, Christ the LORD enfleshed, doesn't know the times? this phrase is directly quoting the marriage ceremony, and if you don't understand that this is what He's doing, you'll come up with all kinds of weird theologies like an ignorant Christ who "knows all things" only not really all things, and mixing up covenants and mis-identifying yourself, and having no real idea of what He accomplished on the cross. that He redeemed you through faith by grace, but not really, because you have to work to redeem yourself by law, through ordinances.

am i saying don't keep His commands?? that His word is evil?
good grief no! the point is sailing right over your head if you think that's what i'm saying!

 

[posthuman]

For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.
To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews.
To those under The Law I became as one under The Law (though not being myself under The Law) that I might win those under The Law.
To those outside the law I became as one outside The Law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside The Law.
(1 Corinthians 9:19-21)
​

three laws in this text.
"The Law" -- clearly the Law of Moses
"the law of God" -- what is this?
"the law of Christ" -- what is this?

Paul is not under "The Law"
Paul is under "the law of God"
Paul is under "the law of Christ"

 

[posthuman]

three laws in this text.
"The Law" -- clearly the Law of Moses
"the law of God" -- what is this?
"the law of Christ" -- what is this?

per James, "the Law of our King" is love your neighbor as yourself - per Christ, "love one another as I have loved you" - also per Paul, per John -- no surprise this is also in the covenant Law of Moses! though it is not in 'the sacred 10' !

per YHWH, via Micah, "what has the Lord required of you? but to do justice, to love mercy, and to walk humbly before your God" -- no surprise Christ names this the greatest commandment, for what is this but to love Him? and love for others He names the second, also like it!

are these the answers to those questions?

 

[posthuman]

oh but i guess i'm "lamestream" and don't read scripture

​

​

 

[Studyman]

He made Israel His wife.

Hebrew marriage follows a 12-step pattern, and that pattern is all over scripture. part of the pattern is a "covenant" - that the groom presents to the betrothed, and she must agree to. that is the Law given through Moses, the marriage covenant of the Father and Israel.

"It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,"
declares the LORD.
(Jeremiah 31:32)​

see what He references? a covenant - specifically a marriage covenant - that is broken. see the epistle to the Hebrews. broken. passed away and replaced with a much better covenant. a different Law and a different priesthood. what Christ does in the NT is begin this same 12-step betrothal ceremony with us, with a new covenant - as He calls the cup and the bread, His body and blood.
Israel goes all the way through the ceremony, every step including consummation of it - and then whores herself out, and breaks it.
we are in the middle of the ceremony - waiting for the Groom to snatch up His Bride "at a day and hour which only the Father knows" -- do you really think omniscient God, Christ the LORD enfleshed, doesn't know the times? this phrase is directly quoting the marriage ceremony, and if you don't understand that this is what He's doing, you'll come up with all kinds of weird theologies like an ignorant Christ who "knows all things" only not really all things, and mixing up covenants and mis-identifying yourself, and having no real idea of what He accomplished on the cross. that He redeemed you through faith by grace, but not really, because you have to work to redeem yourself by law, through ordinances.

am i saying don't keep His commands?? that His word is evil?
good grief no! the point is sailing right over your head if you think that's what i'm saying!

None of what you just said has any bearing on Col. 2. and the warnings Paul is given them regarding men who teach a vain deceit.

You know only what those human teachers who preach a doctrine that "Transgresses the Commandments of God" tell you.

You don't understand God's Covenant with Abraham. You reject it. You don't understand the Law that was "ADDED" to this Covenant with Abraham because you only know what men who transgress God's Commandments by their own man made traditions tell you.

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This pertains to 2 things.

#1. How God's Law is administered.

#2. How sin's are forgiven.

EX. 34:1 And the LORD(Jesus) said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

I understand perfectly well your preaching, I have heard it taught all my adult life, as did my fathers before me. I am sure you mean well, just as the preachers in Paul's time who were "Bewitching the Galatians" or the Jews who accused Paul of teaching against the Laws of God, which he did not.

Like the Mainstream preachers of Paul's time, you preach against obedience to God. Not with your lips of course, but as it is written, "by their works they deny Him".

You reject that Abraham is part of God's Church, God's Covenant, God's Bride. So was Abel and Noah.

You mean well, but you constantly divide God the Father from His Son Jesus. You preach that Jesus exposed His Fathers "Rudiments of the world and Vain deceit" when He nailed His Fathers Laws to the Cross.

Jesus created examples for you to learn by: 1 Cor. 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

He created perfect examples of Faith:

Heb. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

He spelled out for us why the Mainstream church of His time was rejected:

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

He warned who to "Take Heed" of.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

He created a "Path" specifically for man, then walked In that path, and inspired those who would follow Him to "walk even as He walked".

Yet with all this, you still think we can create our own images of God after the likeness of man.After all this you still believe we are holy enough to create our own "Feasts unto the Lord" and reject God's, even though God, and Paul, taught not to do it.

No PH, I know full well what an "Adulterous woman" is. Because God, in His tender mercies, gave me example after example after example of a people who claimed God as their God, but refused to listen to Him, "Though He was a husband to them".

I believe Him PH. I believe what He Warns me about. I believe what He teaches about the heart of man, and what He Prepared for me to "HELP" me.

I know we see two different Gospels just like Paul and the mainstream preachers of His time saw two Gospels, just like the Mainstream preachers and Jesus saw two different Gospels, just like Cain and Abel saw two different Gospels.

I can only go by your preaching PH. You have said that the "Rudiments of the World" is God's Commandments. You have said the "Tradition of men" is referring to God's Commandments. You have said what Jesus nailed to the cross, that is against us is God's Commandments. You have point blank said that the:

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

is referring to God's Commandments.

Your point, which is the same as the Pope actually, does not sail over my head. We just believe in two different Gospels.

 

[Studyman]

For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.
To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews.
To those under The Law I became as one under The Law (though not being myself under The Law) that I might win those under The Law.
To those outside the law I became as one outside The Law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside The Law.
(1 Corinthians 9:19-21)
​

three laws in this text.
"The Law" -- clearly the Law of Moses
"the law of God" -- what is this?
"the law of Christ" -- what is this?

Paul is not under "The Law"
Paul is under "the law of God"
Paul is under "the law of Christ"


View attachment 176950

Again, everything you know has been filtered through a religion that transgresses the Commandments of God by their man made traditions. You know this, but You trust them anyway, I don't.

 

[Studyman]

per James, "the Law of our King" is love your neighbor as yourself - per Christ, "love one another as I have loved you" - also per Paul, per John -- no surprise this is also in the covenant Law of Moses! though it is not in 'the sacred 10' !

per YHWH, via Micah, "what has the Lord required of you? but to do justice, to love mercy, and to walk humbly before your God" -- no surprise Christ names this the greatest commandment, for what is this but to love Him? and love for others He names the second, also like it!

are these the answers to those questions?

No, they are the reasons for my questions.

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Creating your own images of God, your own High Days, and rejecting God's Instructions is not what Micah had in mind when He wrote this.

 

[Studyman]

oh but i guess i'm "lamestream" and don't read scripture

​

​

The "lamestream" preachers of Christ's time were not rejected because they didn't read God's Word, they were rejected because they didn't believe it

 

[posthuman]

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Please see 1 Cor. 9:19-21 where scripture makes a clear distinction between 'the law of God' and 'the Law ((of Moses))' - which is a covenant law, and seeing that God is here in the book of Jeremiah declaring a new covenant to be established, please consider exactly what law He means when He says 'my law'

 

[posthuman]

We just believe in two different Gospels.

when is the last time you read Galatians? Or Romans?

Pleas read them with me now, and every time 'law' or the observance of a day or a regulation concerning food is mentioned, STOP and consider whether Paul is talking about inconsequential tradition or about Leviticus Law. Consider what the text actually supports, laying aside your own preconception & private interpretation.

Ok thanks

 

[posthuman]

Again, everything you know has been filtered through a religion that transgresses the Commandments of God by their man made traditions. You know this, but You trust them anyway, I don't.

Please bear in mind that you have no idea who i am, who has taught me, what habits i keep, who i trust, or what my experience has been with any religion or what my attitude towards it is.

My conversation with you has been about what the right understanding of this portion of Colossians is, which necessarily involves what the meaning of the words in the text is and how this all relates to the whole of scripture and the true gospel of Jesus Christ crucified and risen

 

[posthuman]

In your religion this is true. But God's Word has a different teaching..

You sure about that?

Romans 5:13

for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

 

[Studyman]

Please see 1 Cor. 9:19-21 where scripture makes a clear distinction between 'the law of God' and 'the Law ((of Moses))' - which is a covenant law, and seeing that God is here in the book of Jeremiah declaring a new covenant to be established, please consider exactly what law He means when He says 'my law'

My understanding of "MY" Law in Jeremiah, is the universal Law of God that Abraham kept. This did not include the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins Paul speaks of in Gal. and Rom. rather "Grace" through faith. Abraham had God's Laws, just not the Levitical Priesthood which was added 430 years later. This, and physical Circumcision that was also added "AFTER" Abraham believed, are the "Law of Works" Paul speaks of in Rom. 3. The "Law of Faith" is the instruction Abraham honored

1 Cor. 9 does not annul the rest of the bible. Paul still "serves the Law of God" in his mind, and does not let the evil within him have dominion over him as he teaches.

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

I don't believe Paul is bringing his body into subjection of man made doctrines, Rudiments of the world, or vain deceit. I don't believe Paul brought his body into subjection to the "Laws" created by the mainstream church of that time. I believe Paul brought his body into subjection of god's Righteousness, God's Instruction, God's good, Holy, Just, and perfect Laws that Abraham obeyed.

 

[Studyman]

when is the last time you read Galatians? Or Romans?

Pleas read them with me now, and every time 'law' or the observance of a day or a regulation concerning food is mentioned, STOP and consider whether Paul is talking about inconsequential tradition or about Leviticus Law. Consider what the text actually supports, laying aside your own preconception & private interpretation.

Ok thanks

You private interpretation, does not make God's Word void. It was Jesus who inspired Leviticus to be written before becoming a man according to the Word of God. When the text says "These are My Feasts" it means, these are the Feasts of Jesus."


1 Cor. 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

As Col. 2. teaches,

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Unlike the Jews customs, these came from Jesus. Unlike todays mainstream religious traditions, these came from Jesus.

I don't believe Paul taught one thing and lived another.

 

[Studyman]

Please bear in mind that you have no idea who i am, who has taught me, what habits i keep, who i trust, or what my experience has been with any religion or what my attitude towards it is.

My conversation with you has been about what the right understanding of this portion of Colossians is, which necessarily involves what the meaning of the words in the text is and how this all relates to the whole of scripture and the true gospel of Jesus Christ crucified and risen

I appreciate what you are saying here. But Mainstream Christianity has been preaching this doctrine you teach for centuries. Imagine how the Jews felt when John the Baptist told them they needed to repent of their traditions and turn to God. They didn't like having their religion that they had followed for centuries challenged by some nobody. I understand perfectly as I was where you are 20 years ago.

I don't believe in the traditions and doctrines of a church that creates images of God in the likeness of man. I don't believe in the traditions and doctrines of a church that creates their own High Days, and rejects those "feasts" Jesus created to show us His Salvation plan.

I don't believe in them because I find their doctrine contrary to scriptures. The OT prophets and Jesus and His apostles warned over and over about men who teach "Vain deceit" Rudiments of the World, and Tradition of men. Who come in Christ's name to deceive. Col. 1 is one such warning in my understanding.

We disagree about Spiritual things. I made a case that Jesus didn't triumph over God when He died on the cross. I don't believe Jesus made a "Show of God" openly. I don't believe Jesus spoiled God when He died on the cross. And there is no evidence I can find to even suggest such a thing is true.

Yet, this is what you would have me believe if I follow your teaching that it was God's Laws that are against us that Jesus nailed to the cross.

So we follow two different Gospels. Nothing new here.

 

[Studyman]

You sure about that?

Romans 5:13

for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

Do you mean am I sure God gave His creation instructions? Yes, I am sure. Do you mean am I sure God didn't punish Adam for disobeying Laws you preach God didn't give him. Yes, I am quite sure.


Rom. 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

I don't believe the mainstream preaching that there was no Law before Moses. There was no Levitical Priesthood ceremonial, sacrificial, "works of the Law" for remission of sins, before Moses. But Adam disobeyed God Law, that is why he was punished.

Rom. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin,(Transgress God's Laws by our own traditions) that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

I just don't believe that God is a man, or can make mistakes like a man, or that Jesus had to come to put God in His place as you rendition of Col. 2 suggests.

For us to no longer "Live in sin" or as it is written in another place, not "practice iniquity", then the definition of sin has to be still here.

Jer. 31 mentions nothing about God writing different Laws on our hearts than He chiseled in stone.

I am passionate as you are about this stuff. And as the history of the Bible clearly shows, men can have contentious debates and discussions over the difference between what God teaches, and what man teaches.

I appreciate your zeal and your replies. We just don't see eye to eye on scriptures. But God's Word does not return void, He will have His perfect work.

 

[gb9]

Do you mean am I sure God gave His creation instructions? Yes, I am sure. Do you mean am I sure God didn't punish Adam for disobeying Laws you preach God didn't give him. Yes, I am quite sure.


Rom. 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

I don't believe the mainstream preaching that there was no Law before Moses. There was no Levitical Priesthood ceremonial, sacrificial, "works of the Law" for remission of sins, before Moses. But Adam disobeyed God Law, that is why he was punished.

Rom. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin,(Transgress God's Laws by our own traditions) that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

I just don't believe that God is a man, or can make mistakes like a man, or that Jesus had to come to put God in His place as you rendition of Col. 2 suggests.

For us to no longer "Live in sin" or as it is written in another place, not "practice iniquity", then the definition of sin has to be still here.

Jer. 31 mentions nothing about God writing different Laws on our hearts than He chiseled in stone.

I am passionate as you are about this stuff. And as the history of the Bible clearly shows, men can have contentious debates and discussions over the difference between what God teaches, and what man teaches.

I appreciate your zeal and your replies. We just don't see eye to eye on scriptures. But God's Word does not return void, He will have His perfect work.

the reason we do not see eye to eye with you on Scripture is this- you just pluck out verses, conjoin them together, and then write your own commentary, so basically you write your own Bible, conveniently leaving out Scripture, or saying that others are mis-interpreting the verses.

like here- you quoted the last verses of Romans 5. well, if you go back to verses 12-14, Paul explains that sin and death entered the world through one man, and then says " until the law, sin was in the world. but sin is not counted when there is no law.

so, that blows your " Adam violated the law " junk out of the water. God told Adam nothing about Sabbath, and Moses nothing about not eating fruit from one certain tree

I have passion too, need to study more man, passion for exposing lying false teachers, as I just did yet again here.

oh, and while you accuse others of jumping around Scripture, who started a thread on Colossians and is now in Romans?

 

[Studyman]

the reason we do not see eye to eye with you on Scripture is this- you just pluck out verses, conjoin them together, and then write your own commentary, so basically you write your own Bible, conveniently leaving out Scripture, or saying that others are mis-interpreting the verses.

like here- you quoted the last verses of Romans 5. well, if you go back to verses 12-14, Paul explains that sin and death entered the world through one man, and then says " until the law, sin was in the world. but sin is not counted when there is no law.

so, that blows your " Adam violated the law " junk out of the water. God told Adam nothing about Sabbath, and Moses nothing about not eating fruit from one certain tree

I have passion too, need to study more man, passion for exposing lying false teachers, as I just did yet again here.

oh, and while you accuse others of jumping around Scripture, who started a thread on Colossians and is now in Romans?

thank you once again for another thoughtful and Spirit filled reply to my post.

I might humbly add that God/Jesus created man before He created His Holy Sanctified and set apart Sabbath for man.

Although it is possible I suppose, that Adam wasn't considered a man by God, or that Adam didn't know God created and sanctified the 7th day for him, but it does seem highly unlikely given that Jesus said God created the Sabbath for man, and I truly believe Adam was indeed, a man.

But I don't know everything so I may be missing something here.

thanks again for your reply