Colossians 2.

posthuman · Dec 10, 2017

Reading Galatians trying to imagine Paul is talking about extra-scriptural traditions and completely man-made doctrines that have nothing to do with the covenant Law God gave to Israel through Moses.

Not seeing it. Seeing exactly the opposite. Paul is very clearly talking about the Torah Law.

Am I supposed to ask for help blinding myself to what's plainly written, or...?

Endoscopy · Dec 10, 2017

Hizikyah said:

Only believe? No not only believe:

Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”

James 2:14-26, “14 My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him. 15, "And if a brother or sister is naked and in need of daily food, 16, "but one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” but you do not give them the bodily needs, what use is it? 17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead. 18, "But someone might say, “You have belief, and I have works.” Show me your belief without your works, and I shall show you my belief by my works. 19, "You believe that Yah is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder! 20, "But do you wish to know, O empty man, that the belief without the works is dead? 21, "Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by wor9ks when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the slaughter-place? 22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected? 23, "And the Scripture was filled which says, “Aḇraham believed Yah, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.” And He called him, “he who loves Yah. 24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone. 25, "In the same way, was not Raḥaḇ the whore also declared right by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works.”

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”

What commands?

Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth.”

1 John 2:24, "As for you, let that stay in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning stays in you, you also shall stay in the Son and in the Father."

Deuteronomy 6:5, “And you shall love יהוה your Strength with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your might.”

Leviticus 19:18, ‘Do not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the children of your people. And you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am יהוה.”

We can isolate a single verse or we can take the entire council of Yah into consideration.

Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

“all” is word #G3650 - holos - Strong's Concordance, holos: whole, complete, Original Word: ὅλος, η, ον, Part of Speech: Adjective, Transliteration: holos, Phonetic Spelling: (hol'-os), Short Definition: all, the whole, entire, Definition: all, the whole, entire, complete

Studyman · Dec 11, 2017

posthuman said:

You keep changing scriptures, moving the bar and refuse to answer or even discuss the questions I asked in MY OP that you replied to.

If you understood and believed the Biblical fact that the Mainstream preachers of Paul's time were still pushing their version of the Levitical Priesthood for remission of sins you would understand Gal. But since you seem to follow the false teaching that the Pharisees were trying to obey God, and not their own Laws they created, your understanding of Col. and Gal.
is corrupted.

I would love to have an honest discussion about Col. 2, and what Paul is speaking to in that chapter.

I believe that the mainstream preaching that it was God's Commandments that are the "Rudiments of the World, Traditions of man, are "vain deceit" and are "against us" is wrong. I think the evidence of that is in this chapter, as well as many others in the Bible.

You seem to be more interested in defending man's traditions, or your church doctrine, than having an open and honest debate about this chapter.

I asked some specific questions in the OP. I would welcome your input.

Grandpa · Dec 11, 2017

Any which way you can view 'law' Paul addresses in his epistles.

He doesn't specifically say 'ceremonial' or 'levitical' or 'not including 10 commandments' because there is no way they could be separated in Judaism. That is a new construct of the new pharisees.

This is extremely simple. But you have to come to Christ to have your eyes opened in order to see it.

Romans 8:2 [FONT=&quot]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.[/FONT]

What's the law of sin and death?

2 Corinthians 3:7-8
[FONT=&quot]7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Rest from what? From sin, some would say...

Ok. What shows our sin? The ministration of death and condemnation shows us our sin... See Matthew 5 for several examples.[/FONT]

posthuman · Dec 11, 2017

Studyman said:

please let me know if i missed some beyond these basic two, or if i am unclear:

Studyman said:

both Paul, and Christ before him, are teaching that Gentiles - indeed all who do not believe - are dead in their sins and the uncircumcision of their hearts

Then He told them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”
(John 8:23-24)

As for you, you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. We all lived among them at one time in the cravings of our flesh, indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!
(Ephesians 2:1-5)

need a third witness? Stephen, too

You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
(Acts 7:51)

without the circumcision of the heart, both the uncircumcised in the flesh and the circumcised in the flesh are dead in there sins and will die in their sin. the heart must be circumcised: this is the remedy, and it is the cross, as Paul just said in Colossians. it is by the putting off of our flesh - all of it with its sinful desires and its rudimentary, works-based comprehension of justification, the hollow, vain philosophy that is the singular tradition of mankind with regards to gaining standing before God - that God, who saves, has by grace made us to pass from death into life.

so for the circumcised of heart, there is life: the Lord hath quickened. the heart must be circumcised - that is in the Law!
although, there are several voices in this thread saying that's in some inconsequential part of the Law, that is not really the Law, that is mere 'works/ordinances/handwriting' or whatever. because it's in Deuteronomy, not THE SACRED 10

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn.For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.
(Deuteronomy 10:16-17)

it is required. but who can circumcise their own heart?? thank God, He came in the flesh and became THE SOLUTION

Moreover theLORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
(Deuteronomy 30:6)

-- just as Paul is saying here in Colossians 2. we, who believe, were dead in our sins, but God has made us alive in Him with a circumcision that is not made by human hands. it is very clear in the way that Paul says this that it is not of our doing - if it were, and we circumcised our own hearts, it would be by human hands. still think it's our doing? read Ephesians, it's even more clear there ((which isn't 'changing scriptures' -- it's one scripture, the Bible, one testimony, but we have to understand how it relates with itself. Colossians is not 'isolated' from the rest of scripture, it's entangled.))

Studyman said:

indeed it is religious Jews, even Jewish believers, who were ((and are even today, probably, both literally & in a manner of speaking)) teaching to the Gentiles that they must perform "Jewish customs" -- which is, to practice and keep all the Laws of the Marriage Covenant between Jehovah and the nation Israel: to wit, the Law of Moses.

But some believers from the party of the Pharisees stood up and declared,
"The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the Law of Moses."
(Acts 15:5)

see also the whole book of Galatians.

oh, do you want to change that to say that believing Pharisees -- saved men -- were not actually talking about requiring their Gentile brothers to keep the Law of Moses ((as the scripture literally says)), but that they were really only trying to make them keep 'traditions' and imaginary sabbaths and feasts and festivals and customs that they had made-up for themselves? not actually Moses they were talking about, but 'the lying pens of scribes' ?

sorry, but i don't think scripture backs you up on that: Acts 15:21, James settles the matter saying that "Moses has been proclaimed in every city from ancient times and is read in the synagogues on every sabbath."
James doesn't seem to be under any impression that they are referring to anything other than literally Torah Law. no mention of 'traditions' here.

posthuman · Dec 11, 2017

Studyman said:

"rudiments" are "elementary principles" & Paul consistently uses this word with reference to the physical keeping of Torah. as Locutus showed us.

as EG showed us, the curse of the Law - which is part of the Law; it is one Law, one covenant and contract - was against us, because as many witnesses in the scripture say again and again, all sin, all fall, all are astray, and no one seeks Him or does good.

"the tradition of men" is singular in the text, not plural. it actually does make a difference, because mankind overall, in general, has a 'tradition' in the way they approach sanctification & justification, and the Lord God, in Christ, put it to shame. their ((our)) vain deceit - that by works of the Law ((or any law)) man may be justified.
what, at the cross He merely triumphed over singular instances of vain traditions, like tossing salt over your shoulder if you spill some? why did God Himself shed His blood to make atonement for that? He gave His life to save my mother's back because i stepped on a crack?

there is a simple question: when He gave up the spirit, He said "it is finished" - paid for in full, completely accomplished, the matter is closed.
what exactly is finished? vain human traditions that never ever had any value or authority in the first place? He died to stamp out ignorance and idiocy?

or something else.. ?

what is finished, Studyman?

Studyman · Dec 11, 2017

posthuman said:

please let me know if i missed some beyond these basic two, or if i am unclear:

both Paul, and Christ before him, are teaching that Gentiles - indeed all who do not believe - are dead in their sins and the uncircumcision of their hearts

Then He told them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”
(John 8:23-24)

As for you, you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. We all lived among them at one time in the cravings of our flesh, indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!
(Ephesians 2:1-5)

need a third witness? Stephen, too

You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
(Acts 7:51)

without the circumcision of the heart, both the uncircumcised in the flesh and the circumcised in the flesh are dead in there sins and will die in their sin. the heart must be circumcised: this is the remedy, and it is the cross, as Paul just said in Colossians. it is by the putting off of our flesh - all of it with its sinful desires and its rudimentary, works-based comprehension of justification, the hollow, vain philosophy that is the singular tradition of mankind with regards to gaining standing before God - that God, who saves, has by grace made us to pass from death into life.

so for the circumcised of heart, there is life: the Lord hath quickened. the heart must be circumcised - that is in the Law!
although, there are several voices in this thread saying that's in some inconsequential part of the Law, that is not really the Law, that is mere 'works/ordinances/handwriting' or whatever. because it's in Deuteronomy, not THE SACRED 10

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn.For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.
(Deuteronomy 10:16-17)

it is required. but who can circumcise their own heart?? thank God, He came in the flesh and became THE SOLUTION

Moreover theLORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
(Deuteronomy 30:6)

-- just as Paul is saying here in Colossians 2. we, who believe, were dead in our sins, but God has made us alive in Him with a circumcision that is not made by human hands. it is very clear in the way that Paul says this that it is not of our doing - if it were, and we circumcised our own hearts, it would be by human hands. still think it's our doing? read Ephesians, it's even more clear there ((which isn't 'changing scriptures' -- it's one scripture, the Bible, one testimony, but we have to understand how it relates with itself. Colossians is not 'isolated' from the rest of scripture, it's entangled.))

indeed it is religious Jews, even Jewish believers, who were ((and are even today, probably, both literally & in a manner of speaking)) teaching to the Gentiles that they must perform "Jewish customs" -- which is, to practice and keep all the Laws of the Marriage Covenant between Jehovah and the nation Israel: to wit, the Law of Moses.

But some believers from the party of the Pharisees stood up and declared,
"The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the Law of Moses."
(Acts 15:5)

see also the whole book of Galatians.

oh, do you want to change that to say that believing Pharisees -- saved men -- were not actually talking about requiring their Gentile brothers to keep the Law of Moses ((as the scripture literally says)), but that they were really only trying to make them keep 'traditions' and imaginary sabbaths and feasts and festivals and customs that they had made-up for themselves? not actually Moses they were talking about, but 'the lying pens of scribes' ?

sorry, but i don't think scripture backs you up on that: Acts 15:21, James settles the matter saying that "Moses has been proclaimed in every city from ancient times and is read in the synagogues on every sabbath."
James doesn't seem to be under any impression that they are referring to anything other than literally Torah Law. no mention of 'traditions' here.

I’m away from my PC, but I appreciate questions that actually pertain to my post. I can say that James didn’t allow the new converts anywhere near those who claimed to preach “circumcision and the law of Moses”. He directed them to obey 4 Old Testament laws given by God through Moses and then directed them to learn the rest from Moses, just like Jesus instructed His Apostles to do in Matt 23.

This is because they knew the Mainstream preachers of His Time were liars, but Moses and God we’re not.

I address the rest of your reply later, but as you can see, your understanding of Acts is flawed if you consider the Words of Jesus regarding the Pharisees traditions and doctrines of men

Studyman · Dec 11, 2017

posthuman said:

please let me know if i missed some beyond these basic two, or if i am unclear:

This is true, but not reflective of Col. 2.

Col. 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

So if you are attributing Paul's later statement towards people who have not "Received Christ", then you would not listening to Paul, rather, using parts of the chapter to further some predisposed doctrine.

Paul is speaking to people who have already received Christ, which means they have already received the Holy Spirit God gives to those who obey Him, as Peter taught us.

(Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.)

I agree with all the Words of God so I don't disagree with these scriptures.

But it isn't accurate to say these Gentiles were part of this group of people who were dead in their sins. Paul had already established their Faith in Jesus, and His acceptance of them. He continues;

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

So these scriptures you use to describe the Gentiles Paul is writing to are not accurate descriptions of these "Believers".

There is no more need of another witness to try and paint these Gentiles as reprobates and sinners without God and without hope in the world.

Ephesians 2 is speaking about the same thing.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcisiond by that which is called the Circumcision.

Again, who is calling the Gentiles the "uncircumcised? God, Paul? No Post, it was the Jews, the Pharisees, which are also known as "The Circumcision".
in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

But the Law and the Prophets, Moses, nor anyone else EVER taught that the Gentiles were "without God" with no hope in the world. The Pharisees taught this, and had for years, centuries, but God never did and you can't find anywhere in the Bible that proves Paul wrong here.

Stephen is a witness to this Biblical Fact.

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

This is truth, yet even after Paul told us how these gentiles had already been circumcised in the heart, he still, as in Eph.2, mentions the following.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

It doesn't say "Were" dead in their sins, but are dead in their sins and the un-circumcision of the flesh.

Who was saying they were dead in their sins? Who is Paul warning about?

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Did Christ ever teach men were dead in the un-circumcision of their flesh? But there was a law pushed by the Mainstream God of Abraham preaching church for centuries, that said differently.

Acts 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

The Mainstream Preachers had created their own Laws, created their own Sabbaths and their own images of God created after the likeness of man. And had been teaching their Law as God's for centuries. And as Stephen said, when God sent the Prophets to expose their traditions, they killed them, and when God sent His Son, they killed Him as well.

What Paul is saying is that the rudiments of the World, and traditions of men taught as LAW by the Jews, was the "handwriting of ordinances" that was against us. Eph. 2 calls it the "Wall of Separation" between the Jews and the Gentiles.

There was no law of God that said the circumcised of heart could not join in the promise as you pointed out in Duet. 30. I will continue on another post.

Yes, it was the intent of circumcision to deny yourself, and turn to God. Not create an entire religion around the physical aspects which did noting for the person.

But you are getting away from the point Paul is making in Col. 2. These gentiles had already accepted these Spiritual facts.

You need to read the rest Post!!!!

7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

That is what happens when God circumcises your heart, or in another place it is written "I will write my laws on your heart", same thing.

And the rest of God's Instruction Jesus taught from is essential as well.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

That is not what Paul is saying.

Absolutely,

You can not find another place in the entire Bible that teaches that God's Word is a "Rudiment of the World" or "Vain deceit" or "Tradition of men". But you do so anyway, not to fit with the rest of Scripture, but to fit with the Mainstream preaching of your time.

You also can find ZERO evidence from the entire Bible that Jesus "nails His Laws to the Cross" that He created for man before coming to earth as a man.

I welcome you to show me the prophesy where God destroys His own Laws. He says He will write HIS Laws on our hearts. He says He will change the Priesthood, but never once does he say His Son will remove His Laws.

Yet you are still willing to take Col. as a singular chapter, all by itself, and create a doctrine where God's Laws have been removed.

This is the reason for this post because I know Jesus didn't nail His Fathers Laws to His Cross.

For this highlighted statement to be true, I am forced to remove volumes of Scriptures from the OT that prophesies about preachers who are not teaching God's Laws and instructions, but have created their own.

Jer. 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

There are many of these, I only quoted one. Can you show me one scripture where Jesus said the mainstream preachers of His time were trying to obey God? Just one.

You can't because it isn't there. So Post, listen to this. You said I must consider other scriptures and you are right. Yet twice now you are making statements that can not be confirmed with the rest of the Bible.

see also the whole book of Galatians.

Are you really saying that servants of God, endowed by the Holy Spirit of Christ, are disputing with the Elder of God's Church that Jesus specifically appointed? Are you really preaching that the Holy Spirit led these men to "place a yoke on the necks of them and their fathers that they couldn't bear"? And what was that Yoke? God's Laws you preach. But nowhere is it written that the Fathers were burdened because they tried to follow God's Instruction. NOWHERE!!!!

Aren't you supposed to consider the rest of the Bible when preaching doctrine? What did Stephen just say?

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Yet you are preaching that the Pharisees, "which believed" (Demons believe too) were trying to place god's Instructions on the necks of the Disciples that their Fathers couldn't bear.

How about man made traditions and teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men? Are we not to consider the Word's of Jesus? Or do we just bow to the Pope and whatever he says.

I mean no offence, you seem like a sharp guy and you know some scriptures, but think about what I am saying here.

James rebuke the Pharisees which believed, and kept the new converts away from them, and commanded them to keep 2 food laws of God, and 2 moral laws of God, all given by Moses, and sent them to Moses to learn the rest. just like Jesus told them to do.

Am I missing something here Post?

But what about "Love your neighbor" and Love the Lord? Why was not eating animals the were strangled more important than the 2 greatest Commandments that todays mainstream preachers claim to cling to while rejecting the rest..

Studyman · Dec 11, 2017

posthuman said:

please let me know if i missed some beyond these basic two, or if i am unclear:

You did miss another very relevant question I asked about the Mainstream teaching of this chapter.

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

You and "many" claim it is GOD's Laws Jesus nailed to the cross, and not the ancient false preaching of the Jews. How are these Laws against us is one question I asked? Jesus created the Sabbath before becoming a man, YES? He said He created it "FOR MAN". Yet you preach His Sabbath is against us. I could do this for the first and greatest commandments, and the rest really. If I am to believe todays mainstream preachers, I would have to believe that God's Commandments and instructions are against us.

You said we should consider the rest of the Bible when we work to determine what parts of it mean. Where is it written that God's Instruction is against us?

Paul said: 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

This is just one, there are volumes more that directly contradict your statement regarding you preaching of Col. 2.

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Are you really preaching that Jesus "Spoiled" God? If it was His Laws Jesus nailed to the Cross, then the "principalities and powers" has to be Him. If not Him, then who?

Who did He show up? Who is the "Them" that He made a show of openly? God?, He was the God of the Old Testament, YES? So did He make a show of Himself openly?

Who did He triumph over? Are you really preaching he triumphed over His Father? Did He beat God? How, who raised him from the dead?

You see PH, these are relevant questions. I know the answer. And the truth aligns with the rest of the Bible.

The "principalities and powers" were the mainstream preachers and their traditions that had led people astray since Caleb, well, since EVE since Jesus exposed who they served.

Their Law, they called the Law of Moses, but Jesus said it was not, were the ordinances that were against Paul and the Gentiles. You couldn't eat without ceremonial washing, you couldn't take a walk on the Sabbath and eat a blackberry or ear of corn. "We have a Law, and by our Law He should die".

But He made a show of them openly because they called Him a sinner according to their Law and God raised him from the dead. He proved once and for all that it is God and His instructions that reign supreme, not church tradition.

Ask yourself, why are you so surprised that the Gentiles were following the same Path the Apostles followed, and that Jesus followed? What else will they learn from Moses that James led them to? What do you think walking "IN HIM" means? Following the doctrines and traditions that transgress the Commandments of God?

I hope you think about this and consider the warning Paul gives us all in Col. 2.

Studyman · Dec 11, 2017

posthuman said:

"rudiments" are "elementary principles" & Paul consistently uses this word with reference to the physical keeping of Torah. as Locutus showed us.

as EG showed us, the curse of the Law - which is part of the Law; it is one Law, one covenant and contract - was against us, because as many witnesses in the scripture say again and again, all sin, all fall, all are astray, and no one seeks Him or does good.

"the tradition of men" is singular in the text, not plural. it actually does make a difference, because mankind overall, in general, has a 'tradition' in the way they approach sanctification & justification, and the Lord God, in Christ, put it to shame. their ((our)) vain deceit - that by works of the Law ((or any law)) man may be justified.
what, at the cross He merely triumphed over singular instances of vain traditions, like tossing salt over your shoulder if you spill some? why did God Himself shed His blood to make atonement for that? He gave His life to save my mother's back because i stepped on a crack?

And yet Paul was still warning Gentiles until the end of his life to 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Matt. 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

One thing that was finished was the torture and murder by folks who claimed to Love God, but transgressed His Commandments by their own doctrines and traditions.

but He still has to come back. So "ALL" is not finished as He taught.

Matt. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity (That means those who "Transgress God's Commandments by their own traditions.)

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Kind of hard knowing what iniquity is when men are preaching to the world that Jesus nailed it's definition on the cross.

You can go ahead and preach that

if you like.

But it was these "Vain" humans with no "authority" that murdered Jesus, and many prophets, that murdered Stephen for exposing them, that threw Peter in prison and stoned Paul and persecuted, bewitched and beguiled the Gentiles through out the NT.

You make light of the circumstance they lived in, as do many of your friends, because you all have never experienced the hatred and vitriol the mainstream church places on those who place their trust in the God of the Bible.

It is my sincere hope that you might consider the possibility that it is the traditions and doctrines of man that is the true enemy, not God's good, righteous, just and Holy, Instructions.

Although we will probably never agree, I am grateful for your questions, and thankful for your replies.

It is good for men to have such discussions.

Studyman · Dec 11, 2017

Grandpa said:

You can't separate them as doing so would cause your man made religious traditions to fall like dominoes.

But Paul does separate them.

Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Gal. 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, (Sin, transgression of God's Laws)till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Did Abraham have the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins? No GP, Levi wasn't even born yet.

But how can this be. You preach the Law can't be separated. But Paul says there is a "Law of Works" and a "Law of Faith". Abraham wasn't justified by the Law of Works, it wasn't even created yet, he had the Law of Faith.

Paul says of the Law of Works:

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

But what Law is he talking about here?

Rom. 213 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Is this the Law Abraham was blessed for keeping?

And here:

1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

According to you maybe, and the mainstream church of today, but not according to Paul or the Bible.

posthuman · Dec 11, 2017

Paul isn't calling the believers in Colossae dead in their sins any more than he is calling the believers in Ephesus dead. He does warn the people in Galatia that they're apparently seeking to return to death and slavery.

He's saying the same thing he says to the Ephesians - that we were dead but God through Christ has made us alive, even while we were dead. That, by faith, not works - so as he says in all three letters, if you're trying to go back to rudimentary works for justification now that you have believed the singular work of Christ, there's something critically wrong with your faith.

I don't know where you're getting these weird ideas from m8.

posthuman · Dec 11, 2017

You didn't answer the simple question - what is finished?

You seem to be saying that in your opinion Christ was mistaken. Clarify?

posthuman · Dec 12, 2017

Studyman said:

Well that's patently false of you to say!
See: Saul of Tarsus, and didn't you yourself in the same post bring up the martyrdom of Stephen? Christ said the world will hate me for His sake because it hated Him. How can that be what He was talking about at the cross when He said it is finished?

What did He fully accomplish on the cross, Studyman?

beta · Dec 12, 2017

posthuman said:

If I may give my understanding....I think what was 'finished' was JESUS/YASHUA's Human mission on earth, the specific purpose He came for as a man.

posthuman · Dec 12, 2017

beta said:

And what was that? To give everyone "chance #2 at righteousness by keeping law" ?

beta · Dec 12, 2017

posthuman said:

Where did you get that from ? did I say it ?
it was of course to 'pay the ultmate penalty for our sins - death.
However law/obeying God does figure in our conversion since we can not enter eternal life in our natural disobedient state.
Why can people not let ALL things work together...for our perfecting ?

posthuman · Dec 12, 2017

So that's a no, not that?

Or if we lack obedience to the Law, do we also lack eternal life?

What is the promise based on?

Studyman · Dec 12, 2017

posthuman said:

That is right, Paul isn't calling Gentiles who have not been physically circumcised, "dead in their sins" but the Jews were. That is the reason behind the entire Chapter.

"8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

He is saying, Don't be fooled by these mainstream preachers who use parts of the Bible to deceive people. Jesus warned over and over of the same thing.

It doesn't matter what the mainstream preachers of his time preach, because they are from man, but the Commandments Jesus and we walk in are from God.

You can't prove your doctrines that God's Words and instructions are:

#1. Rudiments of the world.

#2. Vain deceit

#3. Tradition of men

#4. Against Paul and the Gentiles

But scriptures does prove that the mainstream preaching of Paul's time was:

#1. From the world and not from God.

#2.. from servants of satan, the great deceiver

#3. Were traditions of men and not from God.

#4. Taught that Gentiles couldn't come to God.(among many other things)

Just because you believe in man's religious traditions over God's Instruction Jesus taught and walked in, doesn't make these Biblical facts void.

We all believe in the mind of man over God until we "SEE" that this leads to death.

Studyman · Dec 12, 2017

posthuman said:

No, it isn't Christ that is mistaken, it is you.

Matt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Once again PH, it isn't God's Word that was against Paul and the Gentiles, or that Jesus "Triumphed over" as you preach. The enemy of the servants of God has always been men with their rudiments of the world, their vain deceit, and their traditions.

I hope this clarifies for you.

Colossians 2.

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