Conditional Salvation
- Thread starter SeaBass
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
you asked..
I rasponded...
but it stasted here...
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
No doubt and it states clearly...THERE is NOT A JUST MAN upon the earth that does good and sins not......Ecclesiastes 7....this was written during the reign of Solomon.....there were priests, prophets and men of God on the planet when this was written and NO just man to be found who practiced GOOD....
Not one sin recorded about Daniel and yet he confessed his SINS....why...because all are sinners and sin and fail on a regular basis......!
It is Christ through us that does the work....any good from us comes from Christ dia us dia the Holy Spirit and the word of God!
the scripture says we are created unto good works...
No doubt and it states clearly...THERE is NOT A JUST MAN upon the earth that does good and sins not......Ecclesiastes 7....this was written during the reign of Solomon.....there were priests, prophets and men of God on the planet when this was written and NO just man to be found who practiced GOOD....
Not one sin recorded about Daniel and yet he confessed his SINS....why...because all are sinners and sin and fail on a regular basis......!
It is Christ through us that does the work....any good from us comes from Christ dia us dia the Holy Spirit and the word of God!
amen! but let's not leave out "in Christ Jesus"
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(Ephesians 2:10)
i believe that what dcon is trying to get across is just as Paul said:
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
(Galatians 2:20)
it's no longer i that sin, but sin that is part of the old nature i throw off.
& it's not i that is righteous, but Christ that dwells in me; the new life.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(Ephesians 2:10)
i believe that what dcon is trying to get across is just as Paul said:
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
(Galatians 2:20)
it's no longer i that sin, but sin that is part of the old nature i throw off.
& it's not i that is righteous, but Christ that dwells in me; the new life.
"see i and i - can you see Jah love?"
- Bob Marley
follow the thread we are past that ....we are at the point where ...do we continue in sin or do we abstain from sin....I already discussed that point elsewhere...
you assume one in Christ will produce .....the scripture teaches.....[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
You have to do it my friend....it is not autopilot....
and we don't have to fail...
2 Peter 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
you assume one in Christ will produce .....the scripture teaches.....[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
You have to do it my friend....it is not autopilot....
and we don't have to fail...
2 Peter 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Ya He give us the knowledge to do good. what is the knowledge to good? Abide to Him and you will bear fruit/doing good.
Good deed is a fruit of abide in Him, not that our ability. Branch can't bear fruit of itself. Jesus is not a liar my friend, by saying branch can't bear fruit of itself, mean we not able to do good, only Him make it possible.
Verse 4.
Yes the promise is we going to be partaker of Divine nature. mean bear fruit. not being partaker of corruption that is in the world.
Back to square one. If you abide to Him, you bear good fruit, it is fruit produce by Him, we only a channel, a distributor. The manufacture is Him. Don't take his credit my friend.
All we need is faith not ability to do good. It will automatically bear fruit but it produce by Him, He give us a privilege to be His distributor.
Are you interpret verse 10 as we can bear the fruit of our self?
Ya He give us the knowledge to do good. what is the knowledge to good? Abide to Him and you will bear fruit/doing good.
Good deed is a fruit of abide in Him, not that our ability. Branch can't bear fruit of itself. Jesus is not a liar my friend, by saying branch can't bear fruit of itself, mean we not able to do good, only Him make it possible.
Verse 4.
Yes the promise is we going to be partaker of Divine nature. mean bear fruit. not being partaker of corruption that is in the world.
Back to square one. If you abide to Him, you bear good fruit, it is fruit produce by Him, we only a channel, a distributor. The manufacture is Him. Don't take his credit my friend.
All we need is faith not ability to do good. It will automatically bear fruit but it produce by Him, He give us a privilege to be His distributor.
Are you interpret verse 10 as we can bear the fruit of our self?
read it again...[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
maybe you don't see so good...so I made it big and red....that will be those who are waiting for the production line to start....if it were up to him alone all branches would bear fruit...but we have a part to play....we must abide in him and we must bear fruit...if we don't bear ...we get taken away........
maybe you don't see so good...so I made it big and red....that will be those who are waiting for the production line to start....if it were up to him alone all branches would bear fruit...but we have a part to play....we must abide in him and we must bear fruit...if we don't bear ...we get taken away........
You have to read the whole story brother.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
He that abide in Me and I in him will bear the fruit.
It is clear only he who abide in Him bear fruit.
If a man not abide in me will cast in to fire.
Branch can't bear fruit of it self. how you participate to bear the fruit if you don't have ability to bear the fruit.?
we only distributor not producer.
this is your quote...
you need Christ for you to bear fruit..that is what he does ...he gives us the ability to bear fruit...look how you change the word.. the scripture does not say that...bearing is not distribution....now you are making up things....together with Christ you have to bear...and this is rubbish.....
you need Christ for you to bear fruit..that is what he does ...he gives us the ability to bear fruit...look how you change the word.. the scripture does not say that...bearing is not distribution....now you are making up things....together with Christ you have to bear...and this is rubbish.....
I give all the credit to Christ. I am not able to produce the fruit. Christ bear the fruit, He don't need my help.
If there is fruit in the branch, that is the work from the vine.
I don't know about you brother. I want your favor to answered my question:
Do you think Christ need you help to produce the fruit?
I thought that in our discussion you had understood this concept of faith and evidence of faith.
But these statements above you are still mired in confusion or maybe use of terms.
What you are not following in the analogy of vine/tree and branches is that the vine cannot produce fruit alone either. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit alone. Both are needed. However, branches are also able to not bear fruit. Those branches are cut off and burned.
Also you try to introduce new words, distributor/ producer. But if you want to use these words, then believes would be producers. But to do so takes both the vine and the branch to do this.
In the context of the topic, conditional salvation, this text/context clearly portrays that possessing salvation is conditional.
A believer, a branch that does not bear fruit(has no faith) will be cut off, loss of the possession of salvation. This former believer,(if he does not repent) will NOT inherit the promise of eternal life.
But these statements above you are still mired in confusion or maybe use of terms.
What you are not following in the analogy of vine/tree and branches is that the vine cannot produce fruit alone either. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit alone. Both are needed. However, branches are also able to not bear fruit. Those branches are cut off and burned.
Also you try to introduce new words, distributor/ producer. But if you want to use these words, then believes would be producers. But to do so takes both the vine and the branch to do this.
In the context of the topic, conditional salvation, this text/context clearly portrays that possessing salvation is conditional.
A believer, a branch that does not bear fruit(has no faith) will be cut off, loss of the possession of salvation. This former believer,(if he does not repent) will NOT inherit the promise of eternal life.
except that Cain & Abel both worked to prepare and bring offerings to the Lord, but one was accepted and the other rejected.
so how do we do the good work in such a way that it will be found pleasing to Him?
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart,
not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
(2 Corinthians 9:7)
i think this is a clue ↑
& that the command is to love the Lord, and the understanding of the command is that if we love Him, we obey Him.
so how do we do the good work in such a way that it will be found pleasing to Him?
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart,
not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
(2 Corinthians 9:7)
i think this is a clue ↑
& that the command is to love the Lord, and the understanding of the command is that if we love Him, we obey Him.
unless we abide in Him, we cannot bear fruit.
see, here again it is Christ that we must be immersed in, not mere H[SUB]2[/SUB]O.
because newbirth is right; a branch that does not bear fruit is plucked off - but the only branch that bears fruit is the one that remains and dwells in Him.
water baptism is a like figure unto the reality.
He must increase, and i must decrease
see, here again it is Christ that we must be immersed in, not mere H[SUB]2[/SUB]O.
because newbirth is right; a branch that does not bear fruit is plucked off - but the only branch that bears fruit is the one that remains and dwells in Him.
water baptism is a like figure unto the reality.
He must increase, and i must decrease
I am going to correct my response.
You said the vine not able to bear the fruit of itself Am I correct. so the vine need a branch.
This is a problem for me. The Fine is Jesus, He is omnipotent. mean he can do anything if He want. He doesn't need help from the branch.
My previous response said : you said vine can't produce fruit. That is not complete statement. The correct statement is above.
this is where you miss the whole aspect of why man was created.
It is not about if God could. However, in His Sovereign will He created the world and man to do what you think only He should do. God will not produce the fruit for us. He needs the branches because the vine cannot produce fruit.
It takes two, vine and branches. One without the other is useless.
It is not about if God could. However, in His Sovereign will He created the world and man to do what you think only He should do. God will not produce the fruit for us. He needs the branches because the vine cannot produce fruit.
It takes two, vine and branches. One without the other is useless.
The gospel itself is not believe and be baptized. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God to salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection; but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and baptism is the shadow. Without the substance there would be no shadow. The death, burial and resurrection of Christ is figured or cast (as a shadow) in the ordinance of water baptism. The omission of baptism with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on believing, as Jesus said numerous times (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26).
There is a reason why all you hear is babble when the truth from God's word is explained to you. I have already explained to you what James means by "faith without works is dead" numerous times but you insist on ignoring "says/claims" he has faith in verse 14 which continues to be your stumbling block and explains why you continue to misinterpret James 2:14-20. I don't have faith without works and this is a judgment call that YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO MAKE. It's bad enough that you continue to make false accusations but to make matters worse, you sit in God's seat of judgment!
I don't teach don't be baptized, don't do works and continue in sin. All you have shown me is how you continue to misinterpret scripture on baptism, works, and practicing sin. Show me where the Bible teaches whoever is not "baptized will not be saved" or "saved by works" or "saved by sinless perfection."
I've already thoroughly explained John 15 to you. If you still cannot grasp the truth then I can't help you any further and will just end up wasting my time beating a dead horse.
Jesus is my Lord and Savior. I have already repented and believed the gospel. I have placed my faith exclusively in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of my salvation (and not in water, works, or sinless perfection). I have received water baptism after my conversion, good works have been the fruit of my salvation and abstaining from sin is what I strive to do, but I don't claim to self righteously be sinless and perfect, like Jesus, 100% of the time.
You should take your own advice. You know nothing about what I practice or my walk. You are not God. If perverting the gospel, false accusations/strawman arguments, making judgment calls that you are not qualified to make and playing silly games is the best you can do then don't waste anymore of my time.
There is a reason why all you hear is babble when the truth from God's word is explained to you. I have already explained to you what James means by "faith without works is dead" numerous times but you insist on ignoring "says/claims" he has faith in verse 14 which continues to be your stumbling block and explains why you continue to misinterpret James 2:14-20. I don't have faith without works and this is a judgment call that YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO MAKE. It's bad enough that you continue to make false accusations but to make matters worse, you sit in God's seat of judgment!
I don't teach don't be baptized, don't do works and continue in sin. All you have shown me is how you continue to misinterpret scripture on baptism, works, and practicing sin. Show me where the Bible teaches whoever is not "baptized will not be saved" or "saved by works" or "saved by sinless perfection."
I've already thoroughly explained John 15 to you. If you still cannot grasp the truth then I can't help you any further and will just end up wasting my time beating a dead horse.
Jesus is my Lord and Savior. I have already repented and believed the gospel. I have placed my faith exclusively in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of my salvation (and not in water, works, or sinless perfection). I have received water baptism after my conversion, good works have been the fruit of my salvation and abstaining from sin is what I strive to do, but I don't claim to self righteously be sinless and perfect, like Jesus, 100% of the time.
You should take your own advice. You know nothing about what I practice or my walk. You are not God. If perverting the gospel, false accusations/strawman arguments, making judgment calls that you are not qualified to make and playing silly games is the best you can do then don't waste anymore of my time.