Conditional Salvation

[elf3]

quite right....elf.....and the next verse tells us who we are and why we are who we are...[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
so if you don't do the good works it means you are either a faulty creation (blame God)or a disobedient creation(blame yourself)....in any event it is clear the good works is a person's choice as opposed to Jackson123 view that they just roll out of you like a production line...

Our faith will be shown by our works. But we must understand that our works don't save us. If our works saved us then there would be many people who could never be saved as they may not have the capacity to do "good works". Take for example a quadriplegic person who has total faith in God but can't do anything. Or a person bedridden because of some reason.

Now for us that can...Our faith should be shown by what we do and how we treat others.

We don't say "don't do good works". We just know our "good works" won't save us but I will sure continue to be that example to others.

 

[notuptome]

Ephesians 2:10 says that we are Christ's workmanship created unto good works. We who are saved produce good works when the Holy Spirit ministers through us. We do not nor can we do good works of our own volition. We are branches that bear the fruit it is the vine that produces the fruit.

If the works are yours they are not good. Todays churches are full of people who are not Christian worshipping God but as it is written in scripture they worship with their lips and not their hearts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[elf3]

Ephesians 2:10 says that we are Christ's workmanship created unto good works. We who are saved produce good works when the Holy Spirit ministers through us. We do not nor can we do good works of our own volition. We are branches that bear the fruit it is the vine that produces the fruit.

If the works are yours they are not good. Todays churches are full of people who are not Christian worshipping God but as it is written in scripture they worship with their lips and not their hearts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For sure brother.

 

[elf3]

quite right....elf.....and the next verse tells us who we are and why we are who we are...[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
so if you don't do the good works it means you are either a faulty creation (blame God)or a disobedient creation(blame yourself)....in any event it is clear the good works is a person's choice as opposed to Jackson123 view that they just roll out of you like a production line...

Maybe I am totally misunderstanding you here but I see something odd with your responses on this forum and ones on another. Here you seem to say "not our works" but on another forum you say we must be baptized to be saved.

 

[Jackson123]

Because you don't understand salvation. It is quite apparent that you hold to OSAS, or that justification by faith means salvation. Where is that stated in scripture?
When one is justified by faith, one is put into a correct relationship with Christ. Unless one also repent, and is baptized one cannot enter into Christ. Entering Christ a person takes hold (possession) of eternal life, but does not have it finitely. Salvation is granted at the end of one's life, or not granted. What you do as a believer, living in faith determines your inheritance.

So, therefore, faith is the requirement but faith is empty, meaningless without the content which is works which will result in being given eternal life. The correct wording is that we are being saved through faith not by faith. We are justified by faith.

Let talking about the bible and forget about OSAS or other doctrine.

You said Faith put one into correct relationship with Christ. Can anybody in correct relation with Christ without repent?

It is inconsistent.

this is the order.

Faith, mean entrust to Him, than you abide in Him because you entrust to Him, It produce salvation and repent and all other fruit.

You not answered my Question brother,

Can you bear fruit before you have faith in Jesus and abide to Him?

 

[newbirth]

Our faith will be shown by our works. But we must understand that our works don't save us. If our works saved us then there would be many people who could never be saved as they may not have the capacity to do "good works". Take for example a quadriplegic person who has total faith in God but can't do anything. Or a person bedridden because of some reason.

Now for us that can...Our faith should be shown by what we do and how we treat others.

We don't say "don't do good works". We just know our "good works" won't save us but I will sure continue to be that example to others.

you assume thing you know nothing of...My grandmother was bedridden for over twenty years but she was an inspiration of faith to more people than I can imagine
we keep going in circles because you believe in a free ride...
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
we are not created unto a free ride...

 

[newbirth]

Maybe I am totally misunderstanding you here but I see something odd with your responses on this forum and ones on another. Here you seem to say "not our works" but on another forum you say we must be baptized to be saved.

who said we must be baptised...Did I say that? I did not make it up.... I just repeat what Christ said...

Mark 16:15-16King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


then it is not my work or your work....he said to do it I do it ....you think and do otherwise....

 

[newbirth]

Ephesians 2:10 says that we are Christ's workmanship created unto good works. We who are saved produce good works when the Holy Spirit ministers through us. We do not nor can we do good works of our own volition. We are branches that bear the fruit it is the vine that produces the fruit.

If the works are yours they are not good. Todays churches are full of people who are not Christian worshipping God but as it is written in scripture they worship with their lips and not their hearts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

the scripture is saying here in no uncertain terms we must not sin and we must do righteousness...I don't see a production line...
Romans 6:11-13American Standard Version (ASV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey the lusts thereof:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]neither present your members unto sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves unto God, as alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

 

[elf3]

who said we must be baptised...Did I say that? I did not make it up.... I just repeat what Christ said...

Mark 16:15-16King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


then it is not my work or your work....he said to do it I do it ....you think and do otherwise....

Baptism by water is done by man received by man thus "works" of man.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is done by God received by man thus not man's work.

So what baptism is God talking about in Mark 16:15-16.

 

[ChristIsGod]

Mat_5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Mat_19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


Mat_22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Mar_10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.


Mar_12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:


Luk_18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.


Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


Joh_14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.


Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


Act_1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:


1Co_7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


1Th_4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.


1Jn_2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.


1Jn_2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn_3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.


1Jn_3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


1Jn_5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.


1Jn_5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


2Jn_1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.


Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[newbirth]

Baptism by water is done by man received by man thus "works" of man.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is done by God received by man thus not man's work.

So what baptism is God talking about in Mark 16:15-16.

if Christ is speaking about HS baptism why is he telling his disciples they must preach the gospel and man must believe and be baptised...it clearly indicates a choice to believe and a choice to be baptised...
and here is what HS baptism too...
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

seeing it is the same message reported by two different people the message must agree even though the words differ...
the baptism of John was it from man or was it from God?

 

[elf3]

if Christ is speaking about HS baptism why is he telling his disciples they must preach the gospel and man must believe and be baptised...it clearly indicates a choice to believe and a choice to be baptised...
and here is what HS baptism too...
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

seeing it is the same message reported by two different people the message must agree even though the words differ...
the baptism of John was it from man or was it from God?

First I want to apologize I was thinking of the wrong verse when you quoted Mark. But in any case look at the end of Mark 16:16...says those who don't believe are condemned. Doesn't say those not baptized are condemned.

 

[SeaBass]

You are assuming that the latter end has to do with salvation.
The verse has to do with someone who was bound by the devil and got freed. Then they again were entangled in the same sin, and because the evil spirit came back with seven other spirits, that later end of that man's condition, was worse than what he had the first time. For example, if a person were just depressed because of sin in their life, then got delivered by the word of God, then because of the sin that they went back into again, they now want to commit suicide. The latter end is worse than the first.
Mat 12:43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Mat 12:44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findethitempty, swept, and garnished.
Mat 12:45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the laststateof that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The latter end has to do with being lost. So my question was why would being lost in the latter end be worse than being lost at the beginning?

 

[SeaBass]

Where did John say that some Christians continue to walk in the light and some don't? You need to read verses 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. 2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? Lost unbelievers walk in darkness, not in the light. Genuine saved believers walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

Read closely. If we say that we have fellowship with him and yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. Walking in darkness and not practicing the truth is not descriptive of those who are born of God.

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 2:9 - The one who says he is in the light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. Believers are not in darkness, but are in the light as I showed you in Acts 26:18; 2 Corinthians 6:14.

1 John 2:11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

1 Jn 1:7 has the conditional word "IF".... one choose to walk in the light and one can choose not to walk in the light.

The implication of John's words for the Christian is the Christian must conditionally continue to walk in the light for all his sins to be conditionally cleansed away.

 

[SeaBass]

the salvation of man is conditional upon one thing:

the grace of God through His Son Jesus Christ.

Since God's grace that brings salvation hath appeared to all men, Tts 2:11, then all men will be saved? Unversalism?

 

[SeaBass]

We are hopeless without Jesus. I am serious. If we have to work for our salvation then I am give up.

Just have a faith in Him, he will do it for us.

Jn 6:27 Jesus said Himself to work for the meat that endureth unto everlasting life. Jesus never said He would do that work for man but gave work to man to do.

 

[Cassian]

Let talking about the bible and forget about OSAS or other doctrine.

You said Faith put one into correct relationship with Christ. Can anybody in correct relation with Christ without repent?

It is inconsistent.

this is the order.

Faith, mean entrust to Him, than you abide in Him because you entrust to Him, It produce salvation and repent and all other fruit.

You not answered my Question brother,

Can you bear fruit before you have faith in Jesus and abide to Him?

It is NOT consistent with your view but is consistent with scripture.

Faith alone is null and void. It does absolutely nothing, meaningless.
When one believes, he will repent and also be baptized in order to enter into Christ. Entering into Christ is when one takes possession of eternal life but that does not mean that person is saved. Salvation here, the attaining of eternal life, only comes to those that are faithful, that endure to the end. One inherits eternal life at the end, not at any time in one's life.

I have answered your question several times, but it does not align with your incorrect understanding of what constitutes salvation, or more accurately, attaining eternal life.

 

[SeaBass]

Thy people are free-will gifts in the day of Thy strength,
in the honours of holiness, From the womb, from the morning, Thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalm 110:3)

because we are saved by grace, not works, we are free-will offerings, not under the compulsion of the law.

So men can be lawbreakers and be saved?

Man does not have to do any works, including obeying God's commands, to be saved?

Not obeying God's commands is lawbreaking.

 

[SeaBass]

"Conditional Salvation."

What seems to be meant is that
there is no such thing as Salvation, but just
"Getting a Chance at It."

What everyone misses in the story of Noah is how when the Ark was built,
Noah was not allowed in, but had to hold on to a nail and hang on the outside of the Ark.

Next someone will be trying to sell us
dehydrated water pills.

Was God obligated to save man unconditionally?

Is God obligated to save all men?

 

[Jackson123]

Jn 6:27 Jesus said Himself to work for the meat that endureth unto everlasting life. Jesus never said He would do that work for man but gave work to man to do.

You have to read the bible as a whole.

Yes Jesus said that you have to work for the meat that endureth unto everlasting life.

But Jesus also said branch can't bear the fruit by itself.

To work for meat that endureth unto everlasting life is to have a faith in Him, it cause abide to Him then the fruit will be good work.