created in 6 days question

[oldhermit]

Hmm... Okay, I suppose you're right. I don't know Hebrew.

Neither do I. This was explained to me a long time ago by a professor of Hebrew.

 

[sltaylor]

No, I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is that wisdom precedes everything in the creation of the natural world. The light represented in Gen 1:3 was created on the first day of creation AFTER the earth was already form and covered with water.

Ok then, what's the misunderstanding? What else was brought forth as the first of his works? Light. There was no sun light so it had to be something else. What else is also known as light that we are told we belong to? The day correct. Is that not what it means to be children of Light? Is that sunlight or something else to?

 

[sltaylor]

So the light that is used every where else in the Bible as a metaphor has an exception for this one chapter then is what you are saying.

 

[crossnote]

No, the sun and the moos are not causal they are incidental. God is the causative agent in all of this. Material light does not originate from the sun it originates from God. So also, the operational laws of physics are dependent upon no other antecedent but God alone.

This is not how this is represented throughout Prov 8.

Sure about those Moos?

 

[oldhermit]

Ok then, what's the misunderstanding? What else was brought forth as the first of his works? Light. There was no sun light so it had to be something else. What else is also known as light that we are told we belong to?

Why are you assuming it hast to something other that just what the text says it is - Light. Like I said earlier, the existence of natural light is not contingent upon the existence of the sun, it is contingent upon God. Do you not believe that God can create natural light without the existence of some external natural source?

 

[oldhermit]

Sure about those Moos?

View attachment 111007

LOL. I didn't catch that.

 

[oldhermit]

So the light that is used every where else in the Bible as a metaphor has an exception for this one chapter then is what you are saying.

The use of the word light is not always metaphorical in scripture. In fact is used as a metaphor far fewer time than it is used in a literal sense.

 

[sltaylor]

Why are you assuming it hast to something other that just what the text says it is - Light. Like I said earlier, the existence of natural light is not contingent upon the existence of the sun, it is contingent upon God. Do you not believe that God can create natural light without the existence of some external natural source?

No I'm not saying that at all. I know God will be the light of the kingdom. Can you deny God's word is perfect and wisdom says it was brought forth as the first of his works? I know God's glory fills the heavens sir, I also know that if I try to lean on my own understanding that's where I go wrong. I can't deny God's word says wisdom was brought forth as the first of his works, it's that simple. Whether I understand it or not, that just what scripture says.

 

[sltaylor]

From the first chapter of John, to Isaiah saying those walking in darkness have seen a great light, light is understood as the wisdom of God. AND that's what chapter 8 is about. Folly is the wisdom of man, who walks in darkness. The chapter is telling man to choose the right wisdom, because God's wisdom IS THE LIGHT THAT SHINES IN THE DARKNESS, and folly is man's wisdom that is the darkness that men who have not understood it walk in.

 

[oldhermit]

No I'm not saying that at all. I know God will be the light of the kingdom. Can you deny God's word is perfect and wisdom says it was brought forth as the first of his works?

Why are you assuming that when wisdom says that it was brought forth as the first of his works that this is in connection with the creation of the universe? According to Prov 8, wisdom was brought forth in the eternal realm of God, not in the natural world and precedes the creation of the material world. Look at the illogic of the argument. Your are saying that this has to mean that wisdom was the first thing created in the formation of the natural world and that the light of Gen 1:3 is synonymous with wisdom. If this is true then it cannot possibly be regarded as the first work because it was preceded by the creation of the earth. If this represents the beginning of the work of God then the earth, not wisdom is the first work.

 

[oldhermit]

From the first chapter of John, to Isaiah saying those walking in darkness have seen a great light, light is understood as the wisdom of God. AND that's what chapter 8 is about. Folly is the wisdom of man, who walks in darkness. The chapter is telling man to choose the right wisdom, because God's wisdom IS THE LIGHT THAT SHINES IN THE DARKNESS, and folly is man's wisdom that is the darkness that men who have not understood it walk in.

Yes, John 1 is an excellent example of a metaphorical use of light but this is not used here in connection with wisdom, this is used as a synonym for truth which is represented in Jesus. If you like I will be happy to examine John 1 with you when we finish this discussion.

 

[sltaylor]

The use of the word light is not always metaphorical in scripture. In fact is used as a metaphor far fewer time than it is used in a literal sense.

Abraham, Sarah and hagar, they can be taken figuratively. The barren woman, she can be taken figuratuvely, she is our mother. The patables, they can be taken figuratively. Don't muzzle an ox while he's treading grain, Paul said the law could be taken figuratively, you are saying light in the bible can be taken fuliguratively. Yet you say, in this one instance light can't be taken figuratively. I don't get that. It can be taken figuratively to me, and through scripture make complete sense sir. That's the only way it does make sense. God's glory shone bofore day one.

 

[eyesonly]

But this contradicts the idea of a 24 hour day. In that verse the definition of 'day' in Genesis 1 is a period of light. 'Day' is the translation of the word yom which means a period of time.

Furthermore 'evening' and 'morning' is a strange way of indicating 24 hour day. It is far more likely that it means the end and the beginning of a period of light. Indeed if it does not there was no evening to the first yom.

Taking Genesis 1 literally means that creation took place within six periods of light.

Thank you valiant for this revelation. Truly a mystery has been revealed to us. Thank you Lord.

God bless

 

[sltaylor]

Yes, John 1 is an excellent example of a metaphorical use of light but this is not used here in connection with wisdom, this is used as a synonym for truth which is represented in Jesus. If you like I will be happy to examine John 1 with you when we finish this discussion.

I'm missing how the wisdom of God compared to those walking in darkness is not light sir. You just lost me. God's word is wisdom and truth and light.

 

[sltaylor]

Yes, John 1 is an excellent example of a metaphorical use of light but this is not used here in connection with wisdom, this is used as a synonym for truth which is represented in Jesus. If you like I will be happy to examine John 1 with you when we finish this discussion.

And I'm missing how we belong to the light, which is referenced as doing the right thing, and not walking in darkness, which is exactly what Prov. 8 is about, is not understood as the light of God. Is it not God's wisdom in not choosing the folly what separates those who walk in the light, compared to those who walk in darkness.....

 

[oldhermit]

Abraham, Sarah and hagar, they can be taken figuratively. The barren woman, she can be taken figuratuvely, she is our mother. The patables, they can be taken figuratively. Don't muzzle an ox while he's treading grain, Paul said the law could be taken figuratively, you are saying light in the bible can be taken fuliguratively. Yet you say, in this one instance light can't be taken figuratively. I don't get that. It can be taken figuratively to me, and through scripture make complete sense sir. That's the only way it does make sense. God's glory shone bofore day one.

A good rule of thumb is that scripture must be taken literally unless the text clearly represents it as a symbolism. You know that Sarah and Hagar themselves are not strictly figurative characters. They were real people who are pictured in the NT and representing something bigger than themselves. The fact that they are use as symbols in select places in the NT does not mean they are to be understood as symbols every time we see them is scripture. Like I said earlier, light is used literally in scripture far more times than it is metaphorically.

 

[oldhermit]

I'm missing how the wisdom of God compared to those walking in darkness is not light sir. You just lost me. God's word is wisdom and truth and light.

Because John is not talking about wisdom, he is talking about Jesus. You are misapplying the use of the symbolism in John 1. Let the text of John speak for itself.

 

[sltaylor]

Why are you assuming that when wisdom says that it was brought forth as the first of his works that this is in connection with the creation of the universe? According to Prov 8, wisdom was brought forth in the eternal realm of God, not in the natural world and precedes the creation of the material world. Look at the illogic of the argument. Your are saying that this has to mean that wisdom was the first thing created in the formation of the natural world and that the light of Gen 1:3 is synonymous with wisdom. If this is true then it cannot possibly be regarded as the first work because it was preceded by the creation of the earth. If this represents the beginning of the work of God then the earth, not wisdom is the first work.

Man you are answering the question for me! Lol I love this discussion by the way as a brother in Christ! You just asked me: "Why are you assuming that when wisdom says that it was brought forth as the first of his works that this is in connection with the creation of the universe?"
So I will ask you, why are you assuming that when wisdom says it was brought forth as the first of his works, it has nothing to do with God starting to work in the first place? We know what day he started working. Day 1. So why are you assuming that when this says it was brought forth as the first of his works it has nothing to do with him starting to work on day one?

 

[oldhermit]

Man you are answering the question for me! Lol I love this discussion by the way as a brother in Christ! You just asked me: "Why are you assuming that when wisdom says that it was brought forth as the first of his works that this is in connection with the creation of the universe?"
So I will ask you, why are you assuming that when wisdom says it was brought forth as the first of his works, it has nothing to do with God starting to work in the first place? We know what day he started working. Day 1. So why are you assuming that when this says it was brought forth as the first of his works it has nothing to do with him starting to work on day one?

Do you think the existence of angels preceded the creation of the universe? Do you think eternity or all of the things that represent the eternal realm preceded the creation of our world?

 

[sltaylor]

Because John is not talking about wisdom, he is talking about Jesus. You are misapplying the use of the symbolism in John 1. Let the text of John speak for itself.

Well I know it was talking about Jesus! But Jesus came to set us free from sin by the truth. And he said God's word is truth, which means the very wisdom or Proverbs 8. We are saying the same thing in different ways I just realized that. The word is what gives man life he doesn't live on bread alone. And the word IS THE WISDOM OF GOD. And that word, and Gods wisdom from his word did become flesh, and it still shines to this day. The light set us free from darkness and that IS what Proverbs 8 is about too.