Did the LORD Violate Human Free Will???

[SoulWeaver]

Yes, but where does the Bible say what specifically was "known" in the foreknowledge? And it is the men who are "known," in the sentence, not something they do or some state of their mind -- not that such is ruled out by the word.

I was just trying to add helpful verses. No, it doesnt specify what is known (and now I think, that might be to give God glory?). But I'm sure it is infinitely much. The Scriptures also say He knows our thoughts before they come up (Psalms 139:2).

 

[ForthAngel]

Free will is having the freedom to desire what you like and which we all choose to desire darkness rather than the light. But if you desire to have a heart like God, then you must submit to Him in order for Him to work in you; but that is your decision.

I think apart from God intervening, we will never desire him or choose him. I think we have to be moved by him against our own will. We already know that we cannot have faith apart from God giving it to us. What can we do apart from God to please him?

Ephesians 2:8-9English Standard Version (ESV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Then there are these:

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

 

[Elin]

Biblical free will is the ability to choose what one prefers without external constraint/force.

Looks like they did what they preferred above.

So you postulate that Saul's posse that went to arrest David wanted to throw off their clothes & start prophesying?
Do you see an hint of that in the text?

Do you see any external force in the text that forced them to do it?

As to Rebekah, I would agree that she probably acted in character. Do you think that perhaps the Lord knew before she was born that Eliezer would make that prayer & prepared Rebekah to be like that on that day?[/QUOTE]
Do you see any external force in the text that forced her to do it?
She did what she preferred to do.

 

[Elin]

In the Biblical sense of free will, the sovereignty of God over the wills of men is not an impediment to Biblical free will.

Unregenerate man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34; Ro 3:19; Gal 3:22). Slaves aren't free.
But slaves can still make some voluntary choices without external constraints,
slaves can still choose voluntarily to do some of the things they desire.
However, their choices are limited by their condition of slavery.
They can make only those choices their condition of slavery allows.

And that is the condition of unregenerate mankind.
They are slaves to sin (Jn 8:34) because of their fallen corrupt disposition which favors/prefers sin.
However, they can still make voluntary choices without external constraint,
they can still choose voluntarily to do some of the things they desire.
But the Bible states unregenerate man cannot choose to love and obey God,
because the mind of unregenerate man has been set in hostility to God by his fallen nature,
and cannot submit to God's law (Ro 8:7).

When we speak of free will in its secular sense, it is the power to make all moral choices, including the choice to love and obey God, and if they choose, even to live a sinless life.
The Bible denies that unregenerate mankind has such power (Jn 8:34; Ro 8:7).

The Bible affirms that unregenerate mankind has the power to make voluntary choices, without external constraint, according to his disposition.
The Bible affirms that unregenerate mankind has the power to voluntarily choose to do what he wishes or desires.
But in its secular sense, that is not free will, that is simply free agency.
The free will of the Bible is limited and, therefore, in its secular sense, it is only free agency.

So we have the Biblical meaning of free will, which is the power to voluntary make choices, without external constraint, according to our disposition/condition, like the slave, and
we have the secular meaning of free will, which is the power to make all moral choices, even to live a sinless life.

Why is the distinction important?
Because free will in the Bible

• is limited, by unregenerate man's slavery to sin, and his will is not totally "free" in the secular sense,
• is only a matter of acting voluntarily, without external constraint, and
• is not a matter of being allowed the choice of all options, which is the secular meaning of free will.

And because God operates within the hearts of men causing them voluntarily, without external constraint to do as he wills, he is not violating their free will in the Biblical sense.

So man's free will in the Biblical sense is not violated by God's sovereignty in the actions of men.

 

[Jon4TheCross]

This chapter has many examples of motivated free will. God tells us to do something (good motivation if recieved or not), and promises that He will do it for us when we follow Him. Jesus said that without Him (good motivation to say the least) we are nothing....to God be the glory through Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Proverbs 3 King James Version (KJV)

3*My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:

2*For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.

3*Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:

4*So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.

5*Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6*In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

7*Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

8*It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

9*Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

10*So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

11*My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord; neither be weary of his correction:

12*For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

13*Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

14*For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.

15*She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.

16*Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.

17*Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.

18*She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

19*The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

20*By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew.

21*My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion:

22*So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck.

23*Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble.

24*When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet.

25*Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh.

26*For the Lord shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.

27*Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it.

28*Say not unto thy neighbour, Go, and come again, and to morrow I will give; when thou hast it by thee.

29*Devise not evil against thy neighbour, seeing he dwelleth securely by thee.

30*Strive not with a man without cause, if he have done thee no harm.

31*Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.

32*For the froward is abomination to the Lord: but his secret is with the righteous.

33*The curse of the Lord is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just.

34*Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.

35*The wise shall inherit glory: but shame shall be the promotion of fools.

 

[Elin]

This chapter has many examples of motivated free will. God tells us to do something (good motivation if recieved or not), and promises that He will do it for us when we follow Him. Jesus said that without Him (good motivation to say the least) we are nothing....to God be the glory through Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Proverbs 3 King James Version (KJV)

3*My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:

2*For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.

3*Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:

4*So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.

5*Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6*In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

7*Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

8*It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

9*Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

10*So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

11*My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord; neither be weary of his correction:

12*For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

13*Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

14*For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.

15*She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.

16*Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.

17*Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.

18*She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

19*The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

20*By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew.

21*My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion:

22*So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck.

23*Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble.

24*When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet.

25*Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh.

26*For the Lord shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.

27*Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it.

28*Say not unto thy neighbour, Go, and come again, and to morrow I will give; when thou hast it by thee.

29*Devise not evil against thy neighbour, seeing he dwelleth securely by thee.

30*Strive not with a man without cause, if he have done thee no harm.

31*Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.

32*For the froward is abomination to the Lord: but his secret is with the righteous.

33*The curse of the Lord is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just.

34*Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.

35*The wise shall inherit glory: but shame shall be the promotion of fools.

Yes, the people of God have the grace of God with which to obey God.

 

[dcontroversal]

Well, seeing how God is Omnipotent and OVER MEN...he has never violated anything.......much less the will of a human.....!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

How much "free will" do men actually have?

Did the LORD violate Rebekah's "free will" in grantingEliezer's prayer?

10 And the servant took ten camels, of the camels of his master, and departed, 1having all goodly things of his master’s in his hand: and he arose, and went to 2Mesopotamia, unto the city of Nahor. 11 And he made the camels to kneel down without the city by the well of water at the time of evening, the time that women go out to draw water. 12 And he said, O Jehovah, the God of my master Abraham, send me, I pray thee, good speed this day, and show kindness unto my master Abraham. 13 Behold, I am standing by the fountain of water; and the daughters of the men of the city are coming out to draw water: 14 and let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say, Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and
she shall say, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: let the same be she that thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I know that thou hast showed kindness unto my master. 15 And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah came out, who was born to Bethuel the son of Milcah, the wife of Nahor, Abraham’s brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder. 16 And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the fountain, and filled her pitcher, and came up. 17 And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Give me to drink, I pray thee, a little water from thy pitcher. 18 And she said, Drink, my lord: and she hasted, and let down her pitcher upon her hand, and gave him drink. 19 And when she had done giving him drink, she said, I will draw for thy camels also, until they have done drinking.

God just answered his prayer. Scripture doesn't say how many women went by that day that were asked to give him a drink - how many went by and failed the test, IOW - didn't give him water or gave him water but not his camels, etc. But when Rebekah came she answered and did as Eliezer had prayed so he knew she was the ONE.

Did the LORD violate the prophet's will every time a prophet prophesied?

2 Pet 1

21 For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit.


18 Now David fled, and escaped, and came to Samuel to Ramah, and told him all that Saul had done to him. And he and Samuel went and dwelt in Naioth. 19 And it was told Saul, saying, Behold, David is at Naioth in Ramah. 20 And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as head over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied. 21 And when it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they also prophesied. And Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they also prophesied. 22 Then went he also to Ramah, and came to the great 5well that is in Secu: and he asked and said, Where are Samuel and David? And one said, Behold, they are at Naioth in Ramah. 23 And he went thither to Naioth in Ramah: and the Spirit of God came upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah. 24 And he also stripped off his clothes, and he also prophesied before Samuel, and 6lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?


IMHO, "lightly dressed." "naked" עָרוּם "2. lightly dressed (in under-garments only)" -- Halot Lexicon

Doesn't God just give a message of revelation to a prophet? then that prophet repeats the revelation he received from God? How does that override the "will" of the prophet. It is the prophets will to speak for God.

 

[Angela53510]

Angela, the word in the NT is hekousios. And it occurs in Philemon. Paul doesn't order Philemon because Paul wants Philemon's good action to be of Philemon's free will. Mind you, the word hekousia is not two words free + will. Actually, so far as I know a man is never said in the Bible to have some specific faculty called his "will." Thelēma with the -ma(t) suffix is better taken to mean the result or object of willing/wanting. Thus if you want an ice cream cone, that is your "will." And the document you write for your death is your will.

BDAG Lexicon
ἑκούσιος, ία, ιον (s. next; Soph., Thu. et al.; ins, pap, LXX; TestLevi 9:7; Philo)
pert to doing someth. of one’s own volition, voluntary, as a volunteer
of backsliders MPol 4 (Zahn’s cj. for ἑαυτοῖς or ἑαυτούς).
κατὰ ἑκούσιον (opp. κατὰ ἀνάγκην) of one’s own free will Phlm 14
(Num 15:3 καθ᾿ ἑκούσιον;
Thu. 8, 27, 3 καθ᾿ ἑκουσίαν [sc. γνώμην];
as opposed to legal compulsion,
cp. Plut., Mor. 446e).—DELG s.v. ἑκών. M-M. TW. Sv.


ἑκουσίως adv. of ἐκούσιος
(s. prec.; Eur., Thu. et al.; ins, pap, LXX, Philo; TestDan 4:6; SibOr 11, 78) willingly ποιμαίνειν (opp. ἀναγκαστῶς) 1 Pt 5:2;
without compulsion, i.e. deliberately, intentionally ἁμαρτάνειν
(Ps.-Demetr., Form. Ep. p. 5, 17)
Hb 10:26.—DELG s.v. ἑκών. M-M.



ἑκών, οῦσα, όν
(Hom. et al.; ins, pap, LXX, Philo; Jos., Vi. 347; 351; Just, D. 5, 5)
pert. to being favorably disposed to do someth. without pressure, willing(ly), glad(ly)
Dg 2:9; IRo 4:1.
Opp. force 5:2; MPol 4:1;
of one’s own free will
(cp. Epict. 3, 5, 9; 4, 3, 9; Lucian, Herm. 77; SIG 1176, 4)
ἑ. τοῦτο πράσσω 1 Cor 9:17
(w. ἄκων, extension of the usual pairing ἑκών . . . ἄκων,
s. Reader, Polemo p. 337; cp. GRickert, ΕΚΩΝ and ΑΚΩΝ in Early Gk. Thought [American Classical Studies 20] ’89).
ὑπετάγη οὐχ ἑκοῦσα it was subjected against its own will (v.l. οὐ θέλουσα) Ro 8:20
(cp. Philo, Ebr. 122).—DELG. M-M. TW.





So you will be singing:

Make me a captive Lord,
& then I shall be free . . .

I know the Greek, Atwood. But even you agree that the two words "free" and "will" never appear together in the Bible.

The Bible is clear we are either slaves to sin, or slaves to God. I believe that God effectually calls believers, leaving no room for this supposed "free" will in salvation. I know I would never had been saved, had I been left to my own devices, because I was a rebel and a sinner. God sovereignly saved me! No other explanation for it.

After we are saved, we have the will to serve God, or grieve him. So is that a choice? Wouldn't most of us prefer to obey God, who in his mercy and grace has saved us?

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, [SUP]6 [/SUP]being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete." 2 Cor. 10:5-6

 

[ForthAngel]

[SUP]Isaiah 10
15 [/SUP]Shall the axe boast over him who hews with it,
or the saw magnify itself against him who wields it?
As if a rod should wield him who lifts it,
or as if a staff should lift him who is not wood!

In context, God seem to use the Assyrian king for his own purposes.

Ah, Assyria, the rod of my anger;
the staff in their hands is my fury!
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Against a godless nation I send him,
and against the people of my wrath I command him,
to take spoil and seize plunder,
and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But he does not so intend,
and his heart does not so think;
but it is in his heart to destroy,
and to cut off nations not a few

Was this a violation of the Assyrian's will?

 

[Elin]

In context, God seem to use the Assyrian king for his own purposes.

Was this a violation of the Assyrian's will?

The Assyrian did what he preferred to do, his free will was not "violated."

 

[notuptome]

Mans will is free to the extent that man must choose between God and sin. Man remains a created being not a creator.

Man cannot serve two masters for he will either love the one and hate the other or he will hate the one and love the other. God is sovereign and allows man to choose.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jon4TheCross]

God has taught me in many ways, but the most common way from my experience is being taught and led through the outcomes of my decisions and not the decisions themselves.

 

[notuptome]

God has taught me in many ways, but the most common way from my experience is being taught and led through the outcomes of my decisions and not the decisions themselves.

On the matter of salvation one can ill afford an adverse outcome.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ForthAngel]

The Assyrian did what he preferred to do, his free will was not "violated."

From what I get from it, the king already had it in his heart to destroy, but God moved him to attack a nation he had not considered or intended to attack. The Assyrian king became an instrument of God's wrath, whether he wanted to be or not, but not necessarily against his "will" since destruction and conquering other nations was already his intent. God just changed his focus on what he should attack and destroy. And even more, God turns around and judges the Assyrian king for his actions.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that God is sovereign above all and there is no violation of human will when God acts upon his own supremacy, and even if there was, he has that right over his creation. As long as Romans 9 remains in the text, this can never really be contested.

 

[Elin]

From what I get from it, the king already had it in his heart to destroy, but God moved him to attack a nation he had not considered or intended to attack.
The Assyrian king became an instrument of God's wrath, whether he wanted to be or not, but not necessarily against his "will" since destruction and conquering other nations was already his intent. God just changed his focus on what he should attack and destroy. And even more,
God turns around and judges the Assyrian king for his actions.

That to me is one of the staggering truths of Scripture.

God will use someone's evil to accomplish his purposes,
but that does not remove their guilt for their evil.

Even the evil serve him.

 

[Jon4TheCross]

On the matter of salvation one can ill afford an adverse outcome.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Amen, and that is why I trust God, and He never fails to direct my path/make my path straight.

 

[SeaBass]

If man had no free will then everything man does, good or evil, God then becomes culpable for it. Therefore any theology that tries to remove all accountability, responsibility culpability, blame away from man putting it all upon God should be rejected.


God has foreknowledge and uses that foreknowledge to know how man will react, choose when put in certain situations:

----God foreknew Saul/Paul of his own free will would choose to obey Him if approached on the road to Damascus (Acts 26:19) Paul could have choose to disobey. Yet God foreknew Saul would choose to obey so God used Sauls' own free will choice to further His own will.


----Acts 2:23 "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:" God foreknew that if He sent Christ among these Jews to preach the gospel, they would of their own free will choose to reject a Christ and crucify Him. So God used these Jews own free will choice to accomplish His own will. Since it was the Jews' own free will choice to crucify Christ, Peter puts the culpability, blame at the Jews' feet, "ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" and not put this blame upon God.

----Jonah 1:2,3 God instructs Jonah to go to Nineveh, yet Jonah of his own free will chose to run away. If Jonah had no free will he could have never ran away. God then punishes Jonah for his free will choice to run away. God has the right to punish the disobedient and that punishment did not take away Jonah's free will. For the Lord said to Jonah a second time, (Jonah 3:1) to go to Nineveh and Jonah of his own free will choose to go...."So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD." Jonah 3:3.


God does not violate man's free will causing men to disboey then God punishes men for the disobedence God force them to do, this is not in the nature of God.

 

[Elin]

If man had no free will then everything man does, good or evil, God then becomes culpable for it. Therefore any theology that tries to remove all accountability, responsibility culpability, blame away from man putting it all upon God should be rejected.

The Biblical meaning of free will here does not do that.

 

[SeaBass]

The Biblical meaning of free will here does not do that.

You posted (my emp) "And because God operates within the hearts of men causing them voluntarily, without external constraint to do as he wills, he is not violating their free will in the Biblical sense."

"Causing" and "voluntarily" do not go together. Someone on another forum use to tell me one has free will to choose what God makes him choose....which is not free will at all.

How can it be said on one hand "God causes" but then on the other hand say it's "without external constraint"?

If God 'causes' that is external constraint and man is not choosing of HIS own free will but God is forcing HIS choice upon man.

Free will would be man making his own choice between at least two or more options. What you say above is God forcing His own one choice upon man with man having no two or options to choose from for himself. So if a man murdered someone, it was not his own free will choice but what God "caused" him to do.