Did the LORD Violate Human Free Will???

[SeaBass]

Key phrase - "through the Spirit".

Carnal unsaved man does not have the Spirit of God striving with them for spiritual thinking. They cannot choose spiritual things.

Again, in the context of 1 Cor 2 "spiritual men" (inspired writers of the bible) were those men God chose to receive revelatory words from the HS and write those words down where others can read and understand those words, Eph 3:3,4.

Paul said in 1 Cor 2:11, you cannot know the mind of God unless God reveals what is in His mind to you.

So Calvin was right in saying man cannot know God's will apart from a revelation of the Holy Spirit. That's why God chose spiritual men (the inspired writers of the bible) to receive those revelatory words from the HS and those inspired men wrote those words down so the rest of us can read and understand them.

Calvin was wrong by saying man cannot read or understand those words that were received and written down by the inspired writers. Acts 22:22 how could those men be angry at Paul if they could not understand the sermon Paul just preached to them? They were angry for they DID UNDERSTAND Paul's words. So of course men can understand those inspired words that were received by inspired writers. The carnal man can understand those words but simply chooses not to accept them/not believe them.

 

[posthuman]

were we predestined to have free will, or is it an accidental outcome?

who gave you intellect and an ability to choose?

 

[SeaBass]

I am sorry that I listed the wrong verse in 1 Cor 2. it should have been verse 14. Can you explain to me why you limit the ability to discern spiritual things to only the inspired writers?

Paul is defending/proving his apostleship and inspiration in v14 "Which things also we (apostles) speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

God chose the apostles to miraculously receive revelatory words from the Holy Spirit and those inspired men wrote those words down so the rest of us UNinspired men can read and understand them.....

Eph 3:3,4. "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)"

By miraculous revelation God made know His will to inspired men as Paul (and other inspired writers of the bible). Those inspired men in turn wrote those "words" down do the rest of us can read and understand them.

You and I are not the spiritual men God inspired to miraculously receive revelatory words from the Holy Spirit. But you and I can read those words those spiritual men wrote down for us and understand them.

 

[ForthAngel]

in the here and now i experience what we call free will - but looking backwards and forwards, i see predestination.
all the wrong things i have done, they seem like they were done by my free choice
all the good that has come of me, it appears i was predetermined to do.

Ephesians 2 English Standard Version (ESV)
By Grace Through Faith

2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[SeaBass]

were we predestined to have free will, or is it an accidental outcome?

who gave you intellect and an ability to choose?

When God created man, God gave man freewill and allows man to use that gift.

 

[forsha]

Again, in the context of 1 Cor 2 "spiritual men" (inspired writers of the bible) were those men God chose to receive revelatory words from the HS and write those words down where others can read and understand those words, Eph 3:3,4.

Paul said in 1 Cor 2:11, you cannot know the mind of God unless God reveals what is in His mind to you.

So Calvin was right in saying man cannot know God's will apart from a revelation of the Holy Spirit. That's why God chose spiritual men (the inspired writers of the bible) to receive those revelatory words from the HS and those inspired men wrote those words down so the rest of us can read and understand them.

Calvin was wrong by saying man cannot read or understand those words that were received and written down by the inspired writers. Acts 22:22 how could those men be angry at Paul if they could not understand the sermon Paul just preached to them? They were angry for they DID UNDERSTAND Paul's words. So of course men can understand those inspired words that were received by inspired writers. The carnal man can understand those words but simply chooses not to accept them/not believe them.

Matt 11:25, Jesus said, "I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Before anyone can understand and discern spiritual things, it has to be revealed to them by the indwelling Holy Spirit of the man, therefore the carnal man cannot understand spiritual things without them being revealed to him by the Holy Spirit.

 

[posthuman]

When God created man, God gave man freewill and allows man to use that gift.

so you agree, mankind is predestined to have an ability to choose, and that agency is subject to the will of the Lord.

sovereign in all things, He is God !!

 

[Jabberjaw]

were we predestined to have free will, or is it an accidental outcome?

who gave you intellect and an ability to choose?

Was mankind's own will required of him prior to this? :

Genesis 2:16-17 (KJV)
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

mankind was by design given choice.

Did God here choose for mankind? or did mankind defy God by his own free will?

Genesis 3:6 (KJV)
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

from Alpha to Omega mankind has free will.

 

[posthuman]

from Alpha to Omega mankind has free will.

you did not "choose" to exist.

 

[forsha]

Paul is defending/proving his apostleship and inspiration in v14 "Which things also we (apostles) speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

God chose the apostles to miraculously receive revelatory words from the Holy Spirit and those inspired men wrote those words down so the rest of us UNinspired men can read and understand them.....

Eph 3:3,4. "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)"

By miraculous revelation God made know His will to inspired men as Paul (and other inspired writers of the bible). Those inspired men in turn wrote those "words" down do the rest of us can read and understand them.

You and I are not the spiritual men God inspired to miraculously receive revelatory words from the Holy Spirit. But you and I can read those words those spiritual men wrote down for us and understand them.

Let me see if I am understanding you right. You are saying the carnal man, or Uninspired man, the man that has not been born again of the Spirit, can discern or understand spiritual things that the apostles and prophets have written down. I can not accept from my understanding of the scriptures, that a man that has not been born of the Spirit can discern spiritual things, no matter who has written them. I believe the things that are written in the scriptures have been inspired by the hand of God, but your limiting the knowledge of spiritual things to only the apostles and prophets has no foundation or support from other scriptures, and is your false interpretation. All scriptures must harmonize before we accept them as truth.

 

[Jabberjaw]

you did not "choose" to exist.

existence of man was a choice of God, eating the forbidden fruit was a choice of man, from the first existence of man man's fate was a result of man's own free will, man's own choice from the beginning destined his own fate and it still does today.

 

[ForthAngel]

Was mankind's own will required of him prior to this? :

Genesis 2:16-17 (KJV)
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

mankind was by design given choice.

Did God here choose for mankind? or did mankind defy God by his own free will?

Genesis 3:6 (KJV)
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

from Alpha to Omega mankind has free will.

I think God predetermined that man would fall and ordained it. Man still chose in the beginning to eat of the fruit and are accountable for it. But it was planned since the foundation of the world. God created man knowing they would fall, therefore it was predestined or it wouldn't have ever happened. As posthuman said, God is sovereign in all. Even sin and evil are under his authority. If he created someone knowing that they would fall, it's destiny regardless of how we look at it. Man is still accountable for the choice he made. The only way it would not be destined is if God himself was unsure of the future of his own creation, which undermines his authority and damages his image as God. The logical conclusion to that is that he would not be as powerful or knowing as we all know he is and that is a dangerous conclusion.

 

[Jeff_56]

Let me see if I am understanding you right. You are saying the carnal man, or Uninspired man, the man that has not been born again of the Spirit, can discern or understand spiritual things that the apostles and prophets have written down. I can not accept from my understanding of the scriptures, that a man that has not been born of the Spirit can discern spiritual things, no matter who has written them. I believe the things that are written in the scriptures have been inspired by the hand of God, but your limiting the knowledge of spiritual things to only the apostles and prophets has no foundation or support from other scriptures, and is your false interpretation. All scriptures must harmonize before we accept them as truth.

yahweh, yahshua(yahweh's salvation),torah,scripture,john the immerser, paul, peter, james, john

are all in agreement that the physical, carnal, dead in sins, deceived, man CANNOT perceive anything true.\

indeed, the most educated men may have yahshua standing right in front of them,

they may have memorized backwards and forwards all of moses and the prophets,

yet they know not a whit, they know nothing, they recognized not the messiah of whom moses and the prophets all spoke...

a good example (or bad example) happened in the biblestudy chat room yesterday. those who are in the dark, deceived, perhaps at best just not yet attained of spiritual maturity through experience in christ,
argued fervently yet in vain
trying to support man's stupidity; and the others who were present offered the wisdom as god gives,
but
they who remain in darkness and who are not seeking the truth, remained blind - literally the blind following the blind ! (and both dying for it, unless one repents) ---

even the disciples of yahshua did not understand torah, scripture, yahweh's word and plan,

until yahshua breathed on them..... yes, even the disciples did not understand....

so too, all men remain in darkness... except a few.

 

[posthuman]

existence of man was a choice of God, eating the forbidden fruit was a choice of man, from the first existence of man man's fate was a result of man's own free will, man's own choice from the beginning destined his own fate and it still does today.

our existence began at some point after "alpha" -- and our purpose in Christ (being predestined according to His purpose) is to do 'the works prepared beforehand' i do not agree that man has free will 'from α to ω'

Ephesians 1:11 & 2:10 are part of scripture, no matter how our vain carnal intellect may struggle to comprehend the truth of them.

i'm not sure free-will / predestination is as much of a black-&-white issue as it's often made out to be.

 

[Elin]

What choice am I making if God forces "A" upon me? None. So how can it be said I have freewill choice when I chose nothing for myself?
You still have God making choice "A" for me and not me choosing "A" or "B" or "C" for myself. There is no freewill when someone else is choosing for me.

If God forced men to be born with a depraved nature, then man has no choice in how he was born and will be depraved, not because man chooses to be depraved, but God forced him to be that way. Freewill allows for man to choose between 2 or more options and you are not allowing man to even have one option to choose from but only be what God wants to force upon him. Josh 24:15 shows men have more than one option to choose for himself and not something forced upon him by someone else.

You still do not understand the meaning of free will.

It does not mean access to all possible choices.
It simply means freedom to choose among the choices available to me.

If I choose a sweater at Target, it doesn't mean my free will is violated
because there is no Macy's in my town from which to choose another sweater.**

If I choose an action that I prefer, it doesn't mean my free will is violated
because there are not more actions from which to choose.
My free will is violated only if I am required to choose against my preference.

So free will is about volition only--is it forced against its preference, or does it get to follow its preference.

It is not about disposition. . .it is not about predestination. . .it is not about the sovereignty of God. . .
or anything else.

If one can choose what one prefers to choose, then one's will is free.
If I can choose the sweater I prefer at Target, then my will is free.


**Target = free will governed by disposition
Macy's = free will not governed by disposition

There is no Macy's in my town (human nature).
Target is all I get.

 

[ForthAngel]

our existence began at some point after "alpha" -- and our purpose in Christ (being predestined according to His purpose) is to do 'the works prepared beforehand' i do not agree that man has free will 'from α to ω'

Ephesians 1:11 & 2:10 are part of scripture, no matter how our vain carnal intellect may struggle to comprehend the truth of them.

i'm not sure free-will / predestination is as much of a black-&-white issue as it's often made out to be.

I think we have a will. As Elin stated, we have a will within the confines of our nature. While still carnal and under sin, we choose only what that nature will allow or dictate. This is not free-will by secular definition, although it is the ability to choose. Our will is and always will be confined by God's will. We do not have absolute freedom of will. We choose according to who our master is, either sin or God. Our will is entirely based on who we serve and we can choose nothing outside of what our master dictates. If our nature is to sin, we will choose to sin. If our master is God, we have the ability to choose the things of God (with His Spirit striving in us). Apart from God, we are all dead and incapable of doing anything to please him or to save ourselves. Salvation is of the Lord and not dependent on our own will or assertion which means he violates our will to save us (Thank God for that).

So I believe we have a will, but it is has to be defined properly. We choose and we are held accountable for those choices because God is just. They aren't forced on us. We choose according to our nature. Only God can rescue us from our sinful nature which is a miracle because it defies what is natural by definition. We cannot choose that on our own. We have a will, but it is confined.

Some will claim that this paints God out to be evil, but here is what I propose to them: Did God know who would sin and who would choose him before he created them? Did he know who would suffer his wrath yet create them still? Does it not boil down to the same conclusion then, whether people's wills are forced or not?

If God did not know, then he is not all powerful or all knowing and therefore cannot be as great of a God as we know him to be.

If God knows all things beforehand and creates them still, it is by definition predestined. If God does not know all things before he creates them, then he is not as powerful as we know he is and this is again a dangerous conclusion because it makes God out to be fallible, which he is not.

 

[Elin]

our existence began at some point after "alpha" -- and our purpose in Christ (being predestined according to His purpose) is to do 'the works prepared beforehand' i do not agree that man has free will 'from α to ω'

Ephesians 1:11 & 2:10 are part of scripture, no matter how our vain carnal intellect may struggle to comprehend the truth of them.

i'm not sure free-will / predestination is as much of a black-&-white issue as it's often made out to be.

The problem is a faulty understanding of free will, for the issue is not nebulous.

 

[Jabberjaw]

I think God predetermined that man would fall and ordained it. Man still chose in the beginning to eat of the fruit and are accountable for it. But it was planned since the foundation of the world. God created man knowing they would fall, therefore it was predestined or it wouldn't have ever happened. As posthuman said, God is sovereign in all. Even sin and evil are under his authority. If he created someone knowing that they would fall, it's destiny regardless of how we look at it. Man is still accountable for the choice he made. The only way it would not be destined is if God himself was unsure of the future of his own creation, which undermines his authority and damages his image as God. The logical conclusion to that is that he would not be as powerful or knowing as we all know he is and that is a dangerous conclusion.

Because God can predetermine what man will do does not mean He did, when He made man, the scripture is clear he did NOT predetermine what man would choose :

Genesis 6:6 (KJV)
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

If it was predetermined or the will of the Lord from the beginning, why would He repent He made him?

The only thing predestined in Rom 8 and Eph 1 is the church, not who would be in it... who is in the church are those who chose to be...

 

[ForthAngel]

Because God can predetermine what man will do does not mean He did, when He made man, the scripture is clear he did NOT predetermine what man would choose :

Genesis 6:6 (KJV)
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

If it was predetermined or the will of the Lord from the beginning, why would He repent He made him?

The only thing predestined in Rom 8 and Eph 1 is the church, not who would be in it... who is in the church are those who chose to be...

Are you saying God made a mistake with that verse? Was the gospel planned before the fall? The answer is yes it was. We know this from scripture.

With that being said, I can honestly say I do not understand the verses about God repenting in Genesis and Exodus and have often wondered about these myself. I would guess they are an expression ascribed to God for some purpose I haven't looked into yet and does not imply that God made a mistake, because if he did, we are in BIG trouble. So I don't have a rebuttal regarding that, although I still stand firm on the belief that if God knows all things past, present, and future, before he creates them, it is automatically predestined and unchangeable.

This does not undermine "free will" as Elin and others have defined it. We are still held accountable for our choices within their confines. We are born under sin and make our choices based on this nature. These choices are freely made and God holds us accountable for them. We still have these verses to contend with:

Ephesians 1
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Ephesians 2
2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But[c] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

There is also Romans 8, Romans 9, Isaiah 10, and on and on it goes.

 

[royalscot]

with out using the bible,

how did you learn free will.
as a baby.
you crawled, before you walked, you ate before you could speak.
did you know, why at this time, you wanted to walk or speak.
did you, choose your parents.
when you went to school, did you know, what you would be taught.

etc etc etc

would it be safe to say, by a certain age , and through trial and error,you grew into the person you wanted to be.

or are we sill learning,
what god or man calls free will. with different choices, we meet every new day, of the life we have been given. etc