(continued from previous post)
18. You wrote: “You're trying to turn what is a covenant of Grace regarding Abraham into a covenant of Law - and it is nothing of the sort.”
My response: To the contrary…why do you resist acknowledging that God blessed Abraham BECAUSE (Heb. “akev”, Ge. 26:5) Abraham obeyed?
Therefore, Abraham was graciously granted righteousness by faith, AND God’s blessing to Abraham was given BECAUSE Abraham OBEYED (Ge. 26:5).
We should likewise imitate Abraham and be graciously granted righteousness by faith, AND share in the inheritance given to Abraham BECAUSE we likewise obey.
Why would you oppose this Scriptural fact regarding the faith and obedience of Abraham?
19. I say: “Why would you oppose Torah, when it is transferred directly into the New Covenant? (see "Torah", Jer. 31:33).”
You respond: “Since Jeremiah could not see the Work of the Cross from where he sat, God left it to the Apostles to clarify what His Law would be after the Cross: To believe on the One He sent and to love one another (1 Jn. 3:23-24).”
My response: Jeremiah ALREADY TOLD US that “TORAH” passes into the New Covenant (see “TORAH” in Jer. 31:33).
When Jeremiah uses “Torah” he is, of course, referring to the Torah of Moses.
If Jeremiah was prophesying of a new Torah that is anti-Mosaic-Torah, then Jeremiah would be a false prophet.
AND, you concede that the New Covenant is different than the Old, “because they broke my [old] covenant”.
Therefore, Mosaic Torah was broken in the Old Covenant, whereas (in the New Covenant) Mosaic Torah will NOT be broken!
Yes! Mosaic Torah will be written upon our hearts (Jer. 31:33) so that we will obey it (Dt. 30:14), as Paul FAVORABLY affirms (Rom. 10:8) that this is the Torah-obedient word of faith which he preached.
Furthermore, we should love one another AS HE COMMANDED US (1 Jn. 3:23).
Therefore, Mt. 28:20 is STILL IN FORCE!
Mt. 28:20 applies all of Jesus' Torah-obedient PRE-CROSS teachings to disciples of all nations.
So your appeal to 1 Jn. 3:23 leads us to Torah yet again!
Furthermore, the apostle Paul AGREES that Mosaic Torah is included in the New Covenant (see #11 above, for example).
20. You wrote: “Jesus was preaching the Law to those born under the Law before the Cross. After the Cross God's Law was to believe on the One He sent and for us to love one another… Torah obedience has ZERO to do with righteousness after the Cross. ZERO.”
My response: NO! After the cross, Jesus applied ALL of His pre-cross teachings to disciples of all nations! (Mt.28:20).
21. You wrote: “If you insist on obtaining/attaining righteousness through the Law, Paul is talking about you here…”
My response: I insist on Biblical Scripture! What does it say? We are righteous by faith (just like Abraham, Rom. 4), AND righteousness is something we DO (Gr. “poieo”, 1 Jn. 3:10, Mt. 5:20) or else we are NOT OF GOD!
I insist on both, per the Scriptures which require it.
Why can’t you admit that righteousness is also something we DO?
It doesn’t fit into your (incorrect) anti-Torah theology.
22. You wrote: “Paul recognized that though
blameless under the Law,
righteousness still was not obtained/attained.”
My response: No. Zacharias and Elizabeth WERE BOTH RIGHTEOUS IN THE SIGHT OF GOD! (Lk. 1:6)
I know it’s hard for you to believe…but they actually faithfully obeyed Torah, exemplifying works of righteousness blamelessly, as we should!
Sure, law-righteousness of our own (apart from faith) should be counted as loss (Php. 3:7), but FAITHFUL law-righteousness is required by both Paul AND Jesus!
STOP confusing the two!
23. You wrote: “No, the righteousness that comes from God (and is apart from the Law) is a gift, given when we put our faith in Christ!”
My response: AND Christ and His apostles teach us to faithfully obey Torah. So stop opposing it!
24. I wrote: “Again, Jesus said we live by Torah (Mt. 4:4; citing Dt. 8:3, referencing Torah). He never said it was impossible!”
You answered: “No, that's not what Christ said. The Greek there is 'rhema', not 'nomos', which is the Greek word used for 'Law' or 'Torah' in the NT. Heck, a case might even be made if the author had used the Greek 'graphe' which means written Scriptures, but he didn't, he used 'rhema', meaning spoken, leading word of God, not the written Scriptures of Torah.”
My response: I already refuted this! Sadly…you’ve not bothered to learn from my previous critique of your position.
Here we go again.
You wrongly claim that “rhema” does not refer to Torah.
Here’s proof (again!) that “rhema” refers to Torah.
READ Dt. 8:3 in the LXX! Guess what? It’s RHEMA! Yes, “rhema” is used to refer to the word of God in Dt. 8:3, which in turn is simply referencing the Torah of Moses.
Therefore, Jesus’ quotation of Dt. 8:3 (Mt. 4:4) is ANOTHER proof that Jesus expects us to LIVE by Torah (not pretend it is abolished!)
Likewise, “rhema” refers to Torah in Dt. 30:14 LXX, and Paul uses this same “rhema” at Rom. 10:8, where Paul FAVORABLY affirms that the Torah-obedient Dt. 30:14 context IS the substance of the word of faith which Paul preaches.
AND, Mt. 28:20 requires that we teach this to disciples of all nations (even though JGIG does not want you to do that).
So let’s learn how to use the Biblical languages better.
“Rhema” can refer to “Torah”.
Stop misleading people.
25. I wrote: “Again, Moses said Torah-obedience is NOT too difficult (Dt. 30:11), thereby confirming that we CAN walk in Torah-obedient righteousness per Dt. 6:25.
Did Jesus say: "Hey guys....read Dt. 6:4-5 BUT IGNORE THE CONTEXT!"
Of course not! Therefore, you can't cut Dt. 6:4-5 out of the Torah and impose a foreign meaning upon it simply to accommodate your anti-Torah theology.
Jesus APPLIED Dt. 6 to YOU (Mt. 22:37), context and all.”
You answered: “Yet you ignore the big fat IF in Deut. 6:25 (you know, part of the context of that passage).”
My response: Sure, some people obey Torah, others don’t.
Nevertheless, my position remains. Jesus applied Dt. 6 to YOU (context and all).
And Moses said you CAN obey Torah, because it is NOT too difficult (Dt. 30:11).
Paul AGREES (transferring that very passage into Rom. 10:8 where Paul tells us that this IS the word of faith he preached).
26. I wrote: “In fact, Jesus said Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life (Lk. 10:25-28), again disconfirming your position.”
You answered: “And Jesus also pointed out to each and every one who claimed they kept the Law exactly where they fell short. Again, Jesus preached the Law to those born under the Law. He was telling them, "Here is the Law, but not the watered down Law you've been taught - here's the full weight of what the Law requires", and NO ONE could measure up. That was the point!”
My response: No! Zacharias and Elizabeth were both RIGHTEOUS AND BLAMELESS IN ALL THE COMMANDS of Torah (Lk. 1:6). I think you forgot that one again…
Sure, Zacharias and Elizabeth were not SINLESS…but the Torah has provision for sin built into it. And this points us to the need for a permanent once-for-all sacrifice to permanently take away sins. But that’s no excuse to disobey Torah! Thus, Zacharias and Elizabeth CONTINUED to be Righteous and Blameless in Torah-obedience, even though they were human beings who had sinned.
Jesus never said that you can not faithfully obey Torah like Zacharias and Elizabeth.
Sure, we are not righteous in God’s sight by works of the law without faith (Rom. 3:20), but that’s no excuse to fail to exemplify FAITHFUL works of the law.
27. You wrote: “Whether you have faith or not when 'doing' the Law, they are dead works.”
My response: No! Faith without works is dead (Jas. 2:17). Works without faith is also bad (Gal. 5:4-5). Therefore we need BOTH faith AND works! Thus, faithful Torah-obedient works are not dead, because they exhibit both faith AND works, thus they are NOT subject to the “deadness” of Jas. 2:17 (which only applies if works are absent from “faith”).
And, faithful Torah-obedience is commanded throughout Scripture, so it’s silly to suppose that faithful Torah-obedient works are dead. The Scripture does not command dead works!
28. You wrote: “There is no teaching from Paul that mandates Torah obedience for believers.
My response: Wrong again. See #11 above…I could have listed dozens more considerations…but we’ll start with that.
29. I wrote: “Paul said those who obey the law will be justified (Rom. 2:13), AND Paul has Gentile believers OBEYING TORAH (Rom. 2:26) as a pointed rebuke against circumcised people who fail to obey it properly.”
You answered: “So what use for the Cross then? No need for Christ to be crucified and shed His Blood if it's all about faithfully obeying Torah, right? There would be no need for the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension and the Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood of Christ. Yet those things did happen and are in place, rendering the Old Covenant obsolete.
Romans 2 is showing not how or that Torah Law can be kept, but that the Law stands against every person, Jew or Gentile. The chapter, read in context, proves that no one will be justified by the Law. Indeed, Romans 3:20 (cited above) confirms this!”
My response: I already refuted your Rom. 3:20 argument.
And, nothing you wrote disconfirms my position.
After all, faithful Torah-obedience entails acceptance of the Messiah (Dt. 18) who died on the Cross for us.
Therefore, faithful Torah-obedience does not oppose the cross.
Rather, faithful Torah-obedience REQUIRES acceptance of the Messiah and His apostles and ALL their Torah-obedient teachings which continue to uphold Torah for our proper observance.
Again: Paul said those who obey the law will be justified (Rom. 2:13), AND Paul has Gentile believers OBEYING TORAH (Rom. 2:26) as a pointed rebuke against circumcised people who fail to obey it properly.”
Sure, the Old Covenant is obsolete…but NOT yet passed away. (remember Heb. 8:13?)
So my position stands. You have failed to explain away Rom. 2:13 or Rom. 2:26, both of which disconfirm your position.
30. I wrote: “And what is "sin"? TORAH-DISOBEDIENCE (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).
Paul taught we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15), which means we should NOT disobey Torah, which means we should OBEY TORAH!
So why oppose the Torah which Paul taught us to obey (through his command to "not sin")?”
You answered: “Whatever is not of faith is sin (from Rom. 14). And for those in Christ, when they do sin, whether from lack of faith or acting contrary to love (for love fulfills the parts of the Law that God still cares about, see Rom. 13), God is not counting our sins against us because where there is no law (because in Christ we've died to it, see Rom. 7:4-6), sin is not imputed (Rom. 4).
For you it seems to be all about sin; for God it's all about caring for and growing His children up into the maturity of who they are in Christ.”
My response: You argument hinges upon your incorrect interpretation of Romans 7 (again). I’ve already refuted that above.
Romans 13 never says that God only cares about certain parts of the law.
And, you wrote: “The more Christlike we become, the less sinning there is.”
My response: GOOD! Then the more Christ-like we become, the LESS WE DISOBEY TORAH (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).
Therefore, the more Christ-like we become, THE MORE WE OBEY TORAH!
Thank you. We agree!
So let’s sin less, obeying Torah more!
Yes!
31. I wrote: “We should love one another AS HE COMMANDED US (1 Jn. 3:23).
Therefore, Mt. 28:20 is STILL IN FORCE!
Mt. 28:20 applies all of Jesus' Torah-obedient PRE-CROSS teachings to disciples of all nations.”
You answered: “Sigh. You're beating a dead horse, BibleGuy. Mt. 28:20 does not cite the whole of Torah Law. If Jesus were stating that, He would have said to obey everything
Moses commanded them.”
My response: But Jesus DID command EVERYTHING that Moses commanded!
Remember?
Jesus said we should obey greater AND lesser Torah portions (Mt. 23:23).
Jesus sent forth Torah-teachers (Gr. “Grammateus”, Mt. 23:34) to properly represent His Torah-obedient Torah-teaching ministry.
Jesus said Torah is not abolished until ALL is fulfilled (Mt. 5:17-20), and ALL is not yet fulfilled (e.g., Dt. 30:1-8).
Jesus said the Prophets are NOT abolished (Mt. 5:17), and the prophets require Torah.
Jesus said the Psalms are Scripture which can NOT be broken or set aside (Jn. 10). And the Psalms require Torah.
Jesus sends religious anti-Torah people AWAY from him (Mt. 7:21-23).
Jesus warns of a fiery fate for those who cause opposition to Torah (Mt. 13:41-42; Mt. 23:33).
Jesus said we should exhibit Torah-obedient works of righteousness greater than that of the Pharisees, or else we will not inherit the kingdom of God (Mt. 5:20).
Jesus said we LIVE by Torah (Mt. 4:4; Lk. 4:4).
Jesus said our Torah-teaching and Torah-obedience DETERMINES our position in the coming kingdom.
Jesus prayed we be sanctified by Torah (Jn. 17:17).
Jesus was ANGRY at religious people who used man-made traditions as an excuse to disobey Torah (Mk. 7:8-9).
Jesus expects His disciples to model His Torah-obedient walk of faith (Lk. 6:40; Mt. 10:24-25). John agrees (1 Jn. 2:6).
Jesus said Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life (Lk. 10:25-28).
Jesus applied Dt. 6 to us (Mt. 22:37), which entails obedience to ALL Torah of Moses (Dt. 6:25).
I could go on and on and on…
Therefore, Jesus DID say we should obey everything commanded by Moses.
Thus, Mt. 28:20 requires that we TEACH (not oppose!) this to disciples of all nations.
32. You wrote: “I always love when I go to the Greek and find that God has so orchestrated the Gospel in such a fashion that it always, Always, ALWAYS is clear! The Greek for 'words' in Jn. 8:51 is '
logos' - not 'nomos' or 'graphe' (used for Torah or Scriptures).”
My response: I REALLY LOVE IT when people use the Biblical languages correctly.
Jesus uses LOGOS to refer to TORAH! (Mk. 7:8-13).
So let’s not pretend that “logos” somehow refers to Jesus (but not Torah).
And besides, Jesus (through His WORDS and His Spirit) points us to Torah anyway, as I’ve already shown.
Again, you’ve failed to engage this objection I’ve already previously raised against your position.
Sigh….
33. You wrote: “We don't imitate the Law-teaching Jesus…”
My response: WOW! Imagine Jesus teaching in the synagogue…and then JGIG stands up and says: “Behold, Jesus! I will NOT remain in these teachings of yours…because they will be canceled! These words of yours will NOT REMAIN IN ME!!”
Ouch…(Jn. 15:6)
Seriously…read Mt. 28:20 and obey it!
The PRE-CROSS teaching/commandment STILL APPLIES!
That’s the SAME Jesus who was crucified, risen, high priest, Christ, etc…
34. You quote Jn. 13:34.
My response: Great! Jesus loved us enough to show us HOW to obey Him in faith.
This requires faithful Torah-obedience (see #31 above).
Therefore, let us love one another with the faithful Torah-obedience Jesus requires that we exemplify as an expression of our love (Dt. 6:5,25; 1 Jn. 5:3; Jn. 14:15; Mt. 5:20).
CONCLUSION: You wrote: “Whether you will admit it or not, my position is well-defended using contextual Scripture with the Work and High Priesthood of Christ in full view.”
My response: Can you now defend your position against these 34 Scriptural objections I’ve raised?
Sure, Jesus Work and High Priesthood as Messiah is in full view. Awesome!
AND, He (and His apostles) taught us to obey Torah.
So can you defend your position against these 34 objections?
Blessings…
BibleGuy