Do Dispensationalism and Free-will Salvation question God's providence?

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Mammachickadee

Guest
#1
#1
For those who do not know or have not put a name to it, dispensationalism is the belief that God worked throughout history in a series of dispensations. Essentially, God and his methods evolved with man and the church.
Free-will salvation is the belief that we chose to be children of God and actively make the decision to accept Christ as our personal savior.
If God has to wait on man for anything is He still provident? Can we really say God is in control of everything and all-powerful if he has to change the requirements for salvation based upon man's opinion of him?
 
maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#2
Apr 18, 2013
9,367
2,444
113
#2
You sure you really want to debate Calvinism and Covenant Theology all in one thread?

: )
 
M

Mammachickadee

Guest
#3
#3
They go hand in hand. Part of dispensationalism is the belief that the method of salvation changed. It is only logical to at least touch on the corelation between free-will salvation and dispensationalism as I believe it stands... a question of God being omnipotent to the extent of election regardless of the century or the people.
 
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Hoffco

Guest
#4
#4
I think the correct word to use is Sovereignty, not providence. the free will of man, sinners, would limit God's sovereign rule of all things. providence of God has to do with His care over all creation; this is not limited by the free will of man. This is why the Bible doesn't teach the free will of man; but the free will of God. Rom.9:16 "So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." Jesus taught that sinful man can not come to Him, unless the Father "draw him",force, him.Jh. 6:44. Hoffco
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#5
#5
The way of salvation has always been,: by grace through faith unto good works, O.T. &N.T. I agree that dispensationalism is wrong,on salvation in both covenants.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#6
#6
But God is the one who made the dispensations, administrations of God grace , this is of God's making., not mans. but biblical theo. stream in the Bible is about God carrying out His eternal plan of salvation in different ages, different administrations. The theme of the Bible is: God's eternal cov. of grace. So we are into cov. theo in different dispensations.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#7
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
113
#7
Mammachickadee said:
They go hand in hand. Part of dispensationalism is the belief that the method of salvation changed. It is only logical to at least touch on the corelation between free-will salvation and dispensationalism as I believe it stands... a question of God being omnipotent to the extent of election regardless of the century or the people.
Click to expand...
If you read the older dispensationalists you will find the majority held to God's sovereignty and predestination. The mark of dispensationalism concern Israel and the Church holding that at least for a time God has separate administrations going on with them. An example of a modern day dispensational calvinist would be John MacArthur.
 
M

Mammachickadee

Guest
#8
#8
Hoffco said:
But God is the one who made the dispensations, administrations of God grace , this is of God's making., not mans. but biblical theo. stream in the Bible is about God carrying out His eternal plan of salvation in different ages, different administrations. The theme of the Bible is: God's eternal cov. of grace. So we are into cov. theo in different dispensations.
Click to expand...
It is understandable that this is the premise of dispensationalism. If one looks at the fine details, though, they will see an outright belief that salvation in the Old Testament times was acquired by obeying sacrificial laws, but after Christ it's the belief in salvation by faith (and usually free-will salvation). No mater what period in history salvation was obtained by a faith in God's holiness, grace, and provision in a perfect sacrifice... not in sacrifices or lip service.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#9
#9
Biblical Calvinism is not exactly like John Calvin pictured,or at least not like most people read Calvin. Rom.8:29-30 is Calvinism at its best. all unconditional, But then we come to Rom.10 and we have to fit in the responsibility of man ; Jesus" said, "but him that comes to Me ,I will never cast out." so , God's elect will come when God make the able and willing. Luther said,"free will is a myth" Spurgeon said,"free will is a slave" Hoffco
 
M

Mammachickadee

Guest
#10
#10
crossnote said:
If you read the older dispensationalists you will find the majority held to God's sovereignty and predestination. The mark of dispensationalism concern Israel and the Church holding that at least for a time God has separate administrations going on with them. An example of a modern day dispensational calvinist would be John MacArthur.
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It's funny that you should cite MacArthur's Calvinism as an example of dispensationalism. MacArthur is one of the best teachers I know, though he is a pre-tribber (yes, I know the placement of the rapture is subjective until it actually happens). His emphasis on free-will salvation being wrong sets him above most modern day theologians who fall to status quo.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#11
#11
I must disagree on the way we receive salvation. It is not by "faith only" James 2:4 "..by works, not by faith only" this is true for both covenants, Repent ,trust and obey is always the way to receive salvation which God has provided for the elect and the whole world.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#12
#12
MacArthurs big problem,is his saying"salvation is by faith only/by believing on Jesus alone" this I find appalling when he also will teach the sovereignty of God in election and in regeneration, see his message on 1Pet.1-3 which is great, but at times, he will summarize sal. by faith only. and Justification by faith only, this is wrong, Justification is first by grace ,then faith, thrn works.
 
M

Mammachickadee

Guest
#13
#13
Hoffco said:
I must disagree on the way we receive salvation. It is not by "faith only" James 2:4 "..by works, not by faith only" this is true for both covenants, Repent ,trust and obey is always the way to receive salvation which God has provided for the elect and the whole world.
Click to expand...
Look at the context of the verse, Hoff. It was an admonition for Christians to not just be hearers of the word but doers as well. They were already saved. Read further to verse 18 in the same chapter.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#14
#14
In all the dispensations God's grace has always produced: "work of faith, labor of love and patience in hope" 1thes 1:3 see Heb. 5:9 "Jesus is the source of eternal life to as many as obey Him" Heb.6:10 "God is not unfaithful to forget you work of of faith and labor of love"v9 "things hat accompany sal.." The Cult of fundamental christian of today is very board spread and appalling.
 
M

Mammachickadee

Guest
#15
#15
Hoffco said:
I must disagree on the way we receive salvation. It is not by "faith only" James 2:4 "..by works, not by faith only" this is true for both covenants, Repent ,trust and obey is always the way to receive salvation which God has provided for the elect and the whole world.
Click to expand...
btw... sure you got the reference right?
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#16
#16
AH,sorry, James 2:24. The context is on "faith without works is dead". Pastor are always reading verses out of context, this is why we are so deceived on sal. today. because believers will not receive God's word, God has sent a spirit of deception amon the churches to believe the lie, of "faith alone." We need a new reformation to finish some undone work of the reformation
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#17
#17
The reform view of Israel is wrong ,. the Church has not replaced the nation of Israel as God's only chosen nation. and God is now fulfilling prophecy for Israel's rebirth and their sal. as a naTION WHEN jESUS RETURNS TO EARTH TO SET hIS 1,000 YRS OF REIGN ON THIS EARTH. SORRY, MY crippled little finger hit the caps key.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#18
#18
I know little of "open theism" I think that is the word for them, their argument against free will is "if there is free will, then, not even God knows what will happen". I agree with them that there is no free will in man, mans will is bound to his sinful nature, therefore the will is evil as the heart of man is evil.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#19
#19
uh oh,do I have bad breath or am I taking your breath away? The truth is very rare today, so it can be overwhelming . The fact is ,christians do not study the Bible , grammatically, contextually, and historically. The lie of the devil is, since an epistles is written to a church, every thing in it has to relate to christians, this is a tragic error. much of the epistles are condemning the unholy professing carnal believers. I am not so sure,the church will ever recover from their apostasy.? I pray for a new wave of sal. from God , but I doubt it is going to happen. Millions of believers have no assurance of sal, because they are still in their sins. All this Justification by faith alone is just sealing them in their false decision and taking them to hell. Sanctification of the Spirit is the first work in sal. justification is 2nd, after the new birth,. New birth is a sovereign call of God giving life to a dead soul, then we are able to respond in repentance, faith and holiness. John Pipper is good on the necessity of works in true sal. listen to his message on Rom.2:4-13 very good.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#20
#20
God sovereignty and power is not in question....His will is the question
to philosophize in mans head what God has to do to be powerful to please
man in his doctrine doesnt mean zip.

To even think Him waiting is a man centered idea. Most all of manmade doctrines
based on mans idea of God and how He must do things is rather unimportant.

the Op asks a question that comes from his opinion and he asks if God has to rely on mans
opinion...ironic.
 
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