Do Dispensationalism and Free-will Salvation question God's providence?

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M

Mammachickadee

Guest
#41
#41
notuptome said:
Simply not true. You have not grasped what God has taught. The Jews to this day have not grasped this either.

I can say without reservation that God does not save any soul against its will. It is wholly false to conclude that a man who bows his head and receives Christ is somehow contributing to Christ's work as Savior. Jesus taught that He submitted His will to His Father's will.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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One word... Jonah
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#42
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#42
Mammachickadee said:
The original meaning and the evolved meaning of doctrines are two different things... but one should base their stance on an ideology based on original intent. Examples would be Halloween, Islam, and Dispensationalism. The creation of Dispensationalism in the church was an attempt to explain why we no longer need to sacrifice and follow many Old Testament laws. Today many dispensationalists believe is what is dubbed 4 and 9/10's Calvinism. The original dispensationalists believed as stated as above... that God was not able to complete the salvation of a man without that man's permission.
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Why don't you just leave the things of the past in the past? You construct straw men to make your teachings look important. Don't fill yourself with the husks that cannot satisfy. Feast on the Lord and let thy soul delight in its fatness. Calvinism as it is taught today is not biblical. God does not and never has saved souls against their will. Nor does God condemn men without cause.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#43
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#43
Mammachickadee said:
One word... Jonah
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Jonah knew the Lord before his little excursion into the sea. God did not save Jonah against his will. You confuse service with salvation. Perhaps the root of the problem with your theology.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#44
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#44
Mammachickadee said:
I was refreshing my 5 point Calvinism when it hit me. The fact that believers across the world and throughout history disagreed with each other on salvation but some were still believers is proof that free-will salvation is false and God's sovereignty and election is the glue that holds the church together.
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Elephants are gray so all gray things are elephants. Great logic.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
M

Mammachickadee

Guest
#45
#45
notuptome said:
Why don't you just leave the things of the past in the past? You construct straw men to make your teachings look important. Don't fill yourself with the husks that cannot satisfy. Feast on the Lord and let thy soul delight in its fatness. Calvinism as it is taught today is not biblical. God does not and never has saved souls against their will. Nor does God condemn men without cause.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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God does condemn, and there is cause. If it takes a man to agree to be saved then God is not all-powerful. I will agree, however, that God's children know Him. If a person is saved by God.... even on some remote island that has never heard the gospel... they will be led by God to produce spiritual fruit. If creation proclaims to the ignorant that there is a God and they have no excuse then obviously God has to completely initiate any and all parts of sanctification into a finished faith.
They aren't my teachings... though I consider it a compliment that one would think the idea of God being all-sovereign originated with me. However, I am a mere human female with a past that proves that God HAS to be the author and finisher of my faith. Granted, throughout every type of theology there will be a person or group who missteps... but for a purpose that fits into God's plan.
 
M

Mammachickadee

Guest
#46
#46
notuptome said:
Jonah knew the Lord before his little excursion into the sea. God did not save Jonah against his will. You confuse service with salvation. Perhaps the root of the problem with your theology.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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The circumstances of Jonah's salvation are not mentioned in the Bible. What was mentioned was that Jonah resisted God multiple times and still God rode him hard. If we are known by our fruits it would seem that Jonah did not want to be God's own.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#47
#47
jimmydiggs said:
I know it's summer and all but sometimes you have to take the glasses off, then you can see the light.
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Same could be said for you.

Dispensationalism at it's root teaches two gospels. It's hard to remain a dispy and not create two gospels whether explicitly or by implication.
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That is only based on a faulty assumption. There is more than ample evidence that God dealt with mankind on earth differently in different time periods. Which has NOTHING to do with salvation.

The problem is you automatically assume darby or scofield when you hear it, thus you can not believe anyone would think anyone else. You need to take your blinders off to see what people are saying.

Free will teaches two saviors, because it takes you and Jesus to save yourself.
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No. again this is based on a faulty assumption.

No man can save himself. thus he has to freely chose to allow someone else to save him.. Thus does not remove free will. and does not mean the person saved himself. In order for this to happen, they person would have had to work. There is no work in faith. Faith is the work of God. because HE DID IT ALL
 
M

Mammachickadee

Guest
#48
#48
eternally-gratefull said:
Same could be said for you.

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That is only based on a faulty assumption. There is more than ample evidence that God dealt with mankind on earth differently in different time periods. Which has NOTHING to do with salvation.
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There's dealing with mankind and there's saving mankind... We are discussing dispensationalism in soteriology.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#49
#49
Mammachickadee said:
In a manner of speaking they actually do teach two gospels and two saviors. Dispensationalism teaches that in the Old Testament sacrifices were required for salvation and the New testament teaches grace alone without works is required for salvation. Free-will salvation requires that God's death and resurrection may be required to justify, but we actively have to ACCEPT that He was able to save and does... hence two saviors (God and self).
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Maam, I mean no disrespect.

I believe in dispensationalsim. And I teach the gospel has been grace through faith since adam. So this is not true (please do not tell me what I believe)

And free will grace teaches that we can not save ourselves. And that ONLY the work of God can save us..

I can not boast in my faith in Christ, I can only boast in his work.. For I could never save myself.
 
M

Mammachickadee

Guest
#50
#50
Let's remind ourselves in what was so aptly termed a forest fire that no disagreement with your fellow man means a lack of justification before God. Were I to say that someone who supports dispensationalism or free-will salvation is not a believer, I would contradict my firm belief that God saves whomever He wills (Romans 9:15-18)
For other foundations of election see: 1 Pet. 1, Eph 4:12-13, II Tim 6:3-16, I Cor 9:14-27, PS 97:10-12, Ps. 119:104, Prov. 6:16, Tit. 2:1-9, Lk. 13:11-30, Mk. 13:20, Jn. 6:44&65, Jn. 15:16, Rom. 8, Gal. 1:11-12, Isa. 40-41

Granted certain translations of the bible such as the NIV may not have the placement of these verses exactly as my Bible does (Thomson Chain KJV... and no I'm not a KJV only person), but I'm confident that someone who purposes to find a verse will be led to it.
 
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M

Mammachickadee

Guest
#51
#51
eternally-gratefull said:

Maam, I mean no disrespect.

I believe in dispensationalsim. And I teach the gospel has been grace through faith since adam. So this is not true (please do not tell me what I believe)

And free will grace teaches that we can not save ourselves. And that ONLY the work of God can save us..

I can not boast in my faith in Christ, I can only boast in his work.. For I could never save myself.
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Was it really free-will?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#52
#52
notuptome said:
Jonah knew the Lord before his little excursion into the sea. God did not save Jonah against his will. You confuse service with salvation. Perhaps the root of the problem with your theology.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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Amen.

Jonah also proves free will.

God wanted Jonah to do something, Jonah freely chose to say No. God then put a roadblock in his way telling him to do this or else.

Jonah could have said no and died, But he finally repented.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#53
#53
Mammachickadee said:
Was it really free-will?
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For God to be a God of love like he claims. yes.

Otherwise. God is not a god of love, but a God that choses whatever he wants for whatever reason, and condemns people to hell with no reason other than he said so.

A fair and loving God (WHich he claims he is, and satan lie is he is not) would say I offer you ALL salvation. It is not his fault some deny his way. Yet he is glorified even in their unbelief.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#54
#54
Mammachickadee said:
[/B][/COLOR]There's dealing with mankind and there's saving mankind... We are discussing dispensationalism in soteriology.
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So am I.

I am a dispensationalsit. Yes Some believe in multiple gospels.

I do not

So if your going to discuss this, and discuss my belief. Then give me the common courtesy to not tell me what I, and many others like me, believe.

Get off the scofield darby bandwagon, and listen to what others say!!
 
M

Mammachickadee

Guest
#55
#55
Meh... didn't have a chance to edit a couple of the references in time. I have a cheat page collected in my Bible and got some of election mixed up with perseverance of the saints. lol Gimme a minute.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#56
#56
Good morning , I know God is faithful and the sun will rise( only our perception,Yes) but it is valid, to say the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, OK ?! two verses, please listen intently, carefully, quite you hearts and hear God's voice. "He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it." 1Thes.5:24 Now in 1Tim. 4:16 "Take head to yourself and to the doctrine, Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who here you." 2 different perspective, can God do that and not lie? of course ,YES! hoffco
 
M

Mammachickadee

Guest
#57
#57
eternally-gratefull said:
For God to be a God of love like he claims. yes.

Otherwise. God is not a god of love, but a God that choses whatever he wants for whatever reason, and condemns people to hell with no reason other than he said so.

A fair and loving God (WHich he claims he is, and satan lie is he is not) would say I offer you ALL salvation. It is not his fault some deny his way. Yet he is glorified even in their unbelief.
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It is true that it's the rejection of God's law that damns us as men. However, to say that a loving God would not be sovereign in all things is dangerous territory. God is a loving God, and loves His creation in spite of its dispensability. Whom He loveth He chasteneth. It is not a lack of love on God's part that damns mankind from birth until justification, but man's inability to do any good from the flesh. Even what the world considers a good thing can be a sin if it is done in the flesh, and all things are done in the flesh before a man is justified.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#58
#58
Mammachickadee said:
Meh... didn't have a chance to edit a couple of the references in time. I have a cheat page collected in my Bible and got some of election mixed up with perseverance of the saints. lol Gimme a minute.
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Please not I AM NOTE ARMINIAN.

I believe eternal life IS eternal. and can not be loat. Also called perseverance of the saints.

so don't look at me from arminian eyes either :p
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#59
#59
Mammachickadee said:
It is true that it's the rejection of God's law that damns us as men. However, to say that a loving God would not be sovereign in all things is dangerous territory. God is a loving God, and loves His creation in spite of its dispensability. Whom He loveth He chasteneth. It is not a lack of love on God's part that damns mankind from birth until justification, but man's inability to do any good from the flesh. Even what the world considers a good thing can be a sin if it is done in the flesh, and all things are done in the flesh before a man is justified.
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Free will does not in any means destroy Gods sovereignty. Jonah proves this. God will get his will done in spite of our free will.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#60
#60
And, I have good news, I teach both sides of God's truth, and I don't lie. I tell my people "only God can save you , and ,on the other hand , only you can repent, trust Christ alone and obey Jesus and gain the salvation of your soul." both are true, a smarter person then I, said," salvation costs you nothing, but every thing" Listen to Jesus in Jh. 6:37 "All that the FATHER gives Me, will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." One must be elect by God and one must come to Jesus to be saved. two sides of God's TRUTH. Now, which side will you choose, BOTH! Please, STOP calling God a liar!
 
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