Do we choose God or did He choose us?

[posthuman]

Well, you are a calvie...which also is a synonym for a human being who wants to use the Bible however he wants.

"one-size-fits all"

which clearly shows further agenda

that can be demonstrated.

Through him all things were made;
without him nothing was made that has been made.
(John 1:3)

For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever!
(Romans 11:36)

For in him all things were created:
things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities;
all things have been created through him and for him.
(Colossians 1:16)

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.
To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.
(Revelation 21:6)


i know that the one who formed me and gave me life is also able to call me by name.
i know that i am made for Him, not Him for me.

The gatekeeper opens the gate for him,
and the sheep listen to his voice.
He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
(John 10:3)

But now, this is what the LORD says-- he who created you, Jacob,
he who formed you, Israel:
"Do not fear, for I have redeemed you;
I have summoned you by name; you are mine."
(Isaiah 43:1)

 

[Inquisitor]

I only quoted the title of the thread asking you where you stood. Apparantly the title didn't stop you from participating so I didn't think it would prevent you from answering it's question.

I again appreciate your prompting on this, however, if you consider the information provided in my post, you will see that this is a question without an honest answer. My intention for joining this thread was for the purpose of exposing the dishonesty of the question in lieu of opening the hearts and minds of individuals to the fact that they are not bound to the false dilemmas presented by Calvinists. Again in my post you will see that rather than play their game, I intend to take issue with the root of their intention by considering the very passages that they pretend their questions come from, thus removing from them their cloak of deception and more importantly giving the Bible its proper place in these types of discussion as the authority instead of the 'consultative resource' as seen in calvinism 101 or any other heresy for that matter.

That being said I will provide information on eph 1 and in doing so you will see my position and how inept this question truly is.

 

[Inquisitor]

Through him all things were made;
without him nothing was made that has been made.
(John 1:3)

For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever!
(Romans 11:36)

For in him all things were created:
things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities;
all things have been created through him and for him.
(Colossians 1:16)

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.
To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.
(Revelation 21:6)


i know that the one who formed me and gave me life is also able to call me by name.
i know that i am made for Him, not Him for me.

The gatekeeper opens the gate for him,
and the sheep listen to his voice.
He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
(John 10:3)

But now, this is what the LORD says-- he who created you, Jacob,
he who formed you, Israel:
"Do not fear, for I have redeemed you;
I have summoned you by name; you are mine."
(Isaiah 43:1)

Anyone see anything in ANY of these verses that even mentions salvation for the individual? Or is all this done by implication i.e. the wishful thinking of the Calvinist. *sigh* This is incredible.

 

[iamsoandso]

no offense but were any of us sitting around one day,as self existent creatures and choose to create a God to worship,,,or one day there was an self existent God sitting around and decide to create us to worship him?,,,who chose who?

 

[Inquisitor]

I do not think of my own wicked volition I would have ever chosen God. He reached down into my dark and sinful life and called me to be his own, a command you do refuse!

God is the originator of our faith! He is the author and finisher of our faith!

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2

The author is the one who writes the book - that is the book of life and the book of our lives. It is arrogance and pride to think we write it or that we choose God. The freewill lie!

Never mind that you didn't believe Calvinism the first time you heard it. And you still must maintain it through self-deprecation. Author and Finisher doesn't mean he "made you believe" in fact what you will find is that God never saved anyone who didn't ask him to. Stop making implications because you're afraid that your faith will disintegrate if your doctrinal system is exposed. You are using your free-will right now to hold to Calvinism instead of the Bible. You use your free-will to hold to Calvinism every time someone exposes it and stirs up doubt and fear in your mind. Why won't you let go of it and be set free by the truth?

 

[posthuman]

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy;
I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
(John 10:10)

if you have chosen Him, follow Him. rejoice for the treasure you have found!
if He has chosen you, follow Him. rejoice for the treasure He has given to you!

 

[Inquisitor]

no offense but were any of us sitting around one day,as self existent creatures and choose to create a God to worship,,,or one day there was an self existent God sitting around and decide to create us to worship him?,,,who chose who?

Choosing that someone should go to hell, or that someone should not, is not the choice that was made at the point of creation. Last time I checked God only created two people, not all of us. And just as those first two chose to disobey him, so can we, no change there. They just made it harder for us to do so. God's love toward man kind has always been in evidence as has man's rebellion against him. This is not about individuals being chosen for anything. How many times must I point out that there is rampant "synonym making" "proof-texting" and now we have "situational dynamics" all trying to forge some kind of evidence that there is a choice on God's part that removes mans ability to choose to be saved and accept Christ FREE gift of eternal life. Why not look at what God has actually decreed and what he has chosen and why... without ignoring the prepositional phrases as Calvinists are found to do.

 

[Inquisitor]

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy;
I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
(John 10:10)

notice the phrase "may have life" not "I am come to give them life whether they want it or not. The rest of you...tough luck."

 

[iamsoandso]

Choosing that someone should go to hell, or that someone should not, is not the choice that was made at the point of creation. Last time I checked God only created two people, not all of us. And just as those first two chose to disobey him, so can we, no change there. They just made it harder for us to do so. God's love toward man kind has always been in evidence as has man's rebellion against him. This is not about individuals being chosen for anything. How many times must I point out that there is rampant "synonym making" "proof-texting" and now we have "situational dynamics" all trying to forge some kind of evidence that there is a choice on God's part that removes mans ability to choose to be saved and accept Christ FREE gift of eternal life. Why not look at what God has actually decreed and what he has chosen and why... without ignoring the prepositional phrases as Calvinists are found to do.

fare enough,,sunday schools over at 10:45,,,church starts at 11:00,,,

 

[posthuman]

notice the phrase "may have life" not "I am come to give them life whether they want it or not. The rest of you...tough luck."

Rejoice evermore.
(1 Thessalonians 5:16)

notice the phrase "evermore"

 

[SolidGround]

Ouch! This thread has a bit of anger attached it seems.

It's not possible for Predestination to be heresy, because it is clearly all over Scripture.

It is not possible to over look words and phrases like 'chosen', 'elect', 'foreordained', 'prepared in advance', 'plan'.

The third thing one must realize is the implications of the word 'chosen'. If God chose everyone, then God didn't choose anyone. The word 'chosen' is selective, and finite. It is meaningless to define it as a general phrase for all of man, and nullifies the context and meaning of many verses into being wastes of words to say nothing.

We should not redefine terms to suit our preconceived notions. We should submit to Scripture, and pray for understanding.

Don't go looking up someone else's interpretation or teaching on such a topic: read for yourself, and let the HS teach you.


I spent nearly 30 years thinking predestination and election were dangerous heresies, because that's what I was taught. I never read anything from Calvin (and I still don't really know what TULIP stands for, nor do I care) but I have found in my Bible that what I was taught actually was denying God's Sovereignty, and placing man as governor of his own salvation instead of Christ.

I know that this won't change anyone's mind, nor do I intend for it to,
but I do hope to see a productive conversation instead of a group of people all calling each other heretics.
If you reject your brother, does it change the blood that you share by (new)birth?

 

[john316forall]

I find it odd that some would actually get 'offended' by those exposing 'why' the teachings of calvinism are heretical, instead of being offended that teaching 'God chooses/predestines certain people for salvation' implies that God CHOSE all the others to go to hell. That he actually created them for the purpose of sending them to hell with NO CHOICE whatsoever. That he actually "DIDN'T" die for everyone but only his select few. Is beyond me how the Spirit in people who are "brethren" wouldn't be screaming, throwing up red flags in their conscience at the absurdity of these teachings.

Too many people are too quick to 'assume' that when the word 'chosen' is mentioned or the word 'predestinate(d)' it just automatically has to refer to salvation. I don't see anyone 'denying' that elect, chosen, predestined, ordained, etc. are in the Bible, but WHAT the subject of those verbs are is what's in question - and if you ask me, are WELL WORTH looking into.

 

[SolidGround]

I find it odd that some would actually get 'offended' by those exposing 'why' the teachings of calvinism are heretical, instead of being offended that teaching 'God chooses/predestines certain people for salvation' implies that God CHOSE all the others to go to hell. That he actually created them for the purpose of sending them to hell with NO CHOICE whatsoever. That he actually "DIDN'T" die for everyone but only his select few. Is beyond me how the Spirit in people who are "brethren" wouldn't be screaming, throwing up red flags in their conscience at the absurdity of these teachings.

Too many people are too quick to 'assume' that when the word 'chosen' is mentioned or the word 'predestinate(d)' it just automatically has to refer to salvation. I don't see anyone 'denying' that elect, chosen, predestined, ordained, etc. are in the Bible, but WHAT the subject of those verbs are is what's in question - and if you ask me, are WELL WORTH looking into.

It is well worth looking into. That is what I was trying to get at. I hope you do study the sentence structures and subject/predicate realation,
as long as your goal is to find the truth,
not simply prove your side (a pit we all have fallen into at one point or another).

I am in no way offended by anything here. Quite the opposite, in fact, as I was trying to help those who were offended.

Concerned? a bit.
Offended? not in the least.

 

[Butch5]

John 6:43-45
[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

God chooses us.

In that passage Jesus was speaking to a specific group of people, what is your basis for applying it beyond that context?

 

[Billyd]

Question for all. If you are a Christian, how did you know that God was calling you to him?

 

[crossnote]

I find it odd that some would actually get 'offended' by those exposing 'why' the teachings of calvinism are heretical, instead of being offended that teaching 'God chooses/predestines certain people for salvation' implies that God CHOSE all the others to go to hell. That he actually created them for the purpose of sending them to hell with NO CHOICE whatsoever. That he actually "DIDN'T" die for everyone but only his select few. Is beyond me how the Spirit in people who are "brethren" wouldn't be screaming, throwing up red flags in their conscience at the absurdity of these teachings.

Too many people are too quick to 'assume' that when the word 'chosen' is mentioned or the w0ord 'predestinate(d)' it just automatically has to refer to salvation. I don't see anyone 'denying' that elect, chosen, predestined, ordained, etc. are in the Bible, but WHAT the subject of those verbs are is what's in question - and if you ask me, are WELL WORTH looking into.

What is truly offensive is when a person uses man's reason and emotions to persuade a doctrinal position and not Scripture.

 

[posthuman]

Last time I checked God only created two people, not all of us.

???

last time i checked, i was a creature -- but who made you?

Through him all things were made;
without him nothing was made that has been made.
(John 1:3)

if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.
(2 Corinthians 5:17)

ktisis: creation (the act or the product)​

Original Word: κτίσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: ktisis
Phonetic Spelling: (ktis'-is)
Short Definition: creation, creature, institution
Definition: (often of the founding of a city), (a) abstr: creation, (b) concr: creation, creature, institution; always of Divine work, (c) an institution, ordinance.

Cognate: 2937
ktísis – properly, creation (creature) which is founded from nothing (this is also the sense of this term from Homer on); creation out of nothing (Lat ex nihilo).

STRONGS NT 2937: κτίσις
κτίσις, κτίσεως, ἡ (κτίζω), in Greek writings the act of founding, establishing, building, etc

Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts?
or who hath given understanding to the heart?
(Job 38:36)

 

[crossnote]

Question for all. If you are a Christian, how did you know that God was calling you to him?

I didn't perceive it while it was happening, but when looking back...well as they say...hindsight is 20/20.

 

[Butch5]

Question for all. If you are a Christian, how did you know that God was calling you to him?

Hi Billyd,

The Scriptures tell us that Christ gives some level of understanding to everyone who is born.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
(Joh 1:6-11 KJV)

 

[Grandpa]

In that passage Jesus was speaking to a specific group of people, what is your basis for applying it beyond that context?

You mean you think the Lord Jesus is only speaking to people who are and will be saved in that passage?

I suppose you could be right but lots of people have a hard time with limited atonement.