Do we choose God or did He choose us?

[notuptome]

There is just too many scriptures that support predestination... for me to discard the teaching completely... its a bitter pill to swallow to consider I may by chance not be chosen though.... but if it is God's will for me to be Judas as opposed to Paul, I suppose it is his choice...

That would be far worse than sad. A simple understanding of election. You are a candidate for eternal life. God has cast a vote for you and the devil has cast a vote for you. You get to cast the deciding vote.

God has chosen and the devil has contested your will shall determine the final outcome.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[posthuman]

What we have here is a question asked by someone who has no biblical answers. Even the name itself is indicative of a wrong process i.e. isfreewilltrue. The question isn't "is free will true" the question should be "How does the Bible portray man?" Now of course as soon as that discussion opens the calvie creates a drive-by shooting with many verses that are topically connected but are not substantively connected. You see, the calvie thinks that because it's IN the Bible that he can then commence connecting it with any OTHER verse in the Bible and when context gets too rough he can then take the liberty of redefining words and bringing in the "weight" of philosophical questions that have no Biblical ground. This is all done to divert one's attention to the true deficit of spiritual wisdom and knowledge on the part of the one asking the questions.

The classic response is "if you don't choose between being an Jacob Armenius or John Calvin you have no place, if you are not given to foreknowledge determining man's action i.e. the "Sovereignty of God" (as they define it of course) then you are an open theist. All of these labels are thrown out to confuse and muddle the minds of the audience spoke to. All these things are false dilemmas i.e. logical fallacies the calvies and their erstwhile counterparts (the roman catholics, whose church they were/are trying to reform) have had hundreds of years to perfect.

Let me exemplify what the calvies are doing. Hypocritically they will answer this argument with the very same method that they will reject if it is applied to THEIR argument. Just watch.

Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

This is a great verse that tells us among other things that anything that moves, is alive or grows anywhere on earth is allowed to be eaten by us. No qualifiers. This is a biblical principle, no arguing that and if you don't believe it, go look it up, it's in the bible.

Now to carry on with that thought I want to post the second verse in "our biblical, chronologically correct bible study" (plants tongue firmly in cheek)
Lev_26:29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.

Here we have a command from God telling us we should eat our children. Such a pleasant thought. Do you disagree with me? How DARE YOU go against God's word. Did he not tells us that we could eat anything? Is there anything telling us we CANT eat each other in these verses? You rebel. What makes you think your conscience is more powerful than God?? Doesn't IJohn tell us that God is greater than our heart? Do you seek to defy and twist the very scriptures themselves. Doesn't Roman's command you when sitting at meat not to question where it came from? and that all things are lawful? Well DOESN'T iT?



Now... let us compare notes with the calvie...

Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Here is a verse that tells us that we cannot choose God, he chooses us, get over it... (generic calvie quote)

And because two is the number of witness I will now produce another verse that PROVES this is true...

Rom_9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

God hates some people and loves others, this proves that he chooses some and not others, I'm elect (just don't ask me how I know) and you're not, nanny nanny boo boo. (a close approximation of any Calvinist lecture on this topic).

Anyone catch what the missing element is in this and every other calvinist argument?

THE CONTEXT!!!
The Calvinist has discovered that as long as he can bend you to his will by abusing scriptural quotes to CREATE doctrine as opposed to studying the scriptures in context as they were written and spoken, he has fooled you into thinking that his pseudo-contexts are the "real way" to view scripture. Don't be fooled. After all, if you use THEIR method, we can all be cannibals! Eat, drink and be merry!

while it's good of you to point out that context is not to be discounted and in many cases if a verse is taken out of context it can superficially be read in a very wrong way,

you haven't provided any contextual criticism of John 15:16 at all.

maybe i'm missing the forest for the trees, but all i see in this long post is "calvie this calvie that" and no substantive argument against predestination. name calling and straw men.

yes, context is extremely important.
so look at the context of John 15:16 -- does Christ's statement "you have not chosen me, but i have chosen you" have a radically different interpretation when properly seen in its context?

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, yeare the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
These things I command you, that ye love one another.
(John 15:1-18)


i don't see that the meaning of Jesus' statement is changed by the context. to me it seems reinforced by the context -- for none of the disciples came to him of their own will, but He said "follow me" and they obeyed, or their brothers said "come" and they came. Jesus is the vine, and no leaf or branch decides on its own 'i will grow on that vine' -- but the husbandmen grafts a branch in, or the vine sprouts a bud, and then there the branches grow.

if you want to argue against this doctrine, you should use the scripture itself, not 'calvie blah blah no context' and then not provide any context of your own. otherwise, all you've done is slander a theological camp. your argument is little more than a bumper sticker.

now if you were to look at the entirety of Leviticus chapter 26, you will see immediately a radically different picture than you do isolating verse 29.

 

[Richie_2uk]

Haven't read a scripture saying that anyone chose to believe or accept God. Weather the other way around

Its not the fact he chose us, you got to remember he created us, we went our own way with our free will. However, its not the fact we choose God, its the fact he has already own us, as we are his creation. But with added feature called free will. So its the we choose to re-follow God. Because we have come to the point we cannot run or hide from God with our sin.

But better later than never thats what I say. better to chose God now before its too late...........

 

[crossnote]

Let's not hijack the discussion. This thread is not about the particular heresies of the Church of God of any flavor, but rather about a Calvinists abuse of scripture.

I took it COG is his church, regardless of heresy ...a highjack nonetheless.

 

[Inquisitor]

while it's good of you to point out that context is not to be discounted and in many cases if a verse is taken out of context it can superficially be read in a very wrong way,

you haven't provided any contextual criticism of John 15:16 at all.

maybe i'm missing the forest for the trees, but all i see in this long post is "calvie this calvie that" and no substantive argument against predestination. name calling and straw men.

yes, context is extremely important.
so look at the context of John 15:16 -- does Christ's statement "you have not chosen me, but i have chosen you" have a radically different interpretation when properly seen in its context?

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, yeare the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
These things I command you, that ye love one another.
(John 15:1-18)


i don't see that the meaning of Jesus' statement is changed by the context. to me it seems reinforced by the context -- for none of the disciples came to him of their own will, but He said "follow me" and they obeyed, or their brothers said "come" and they came. Jesus is the vine, and no leaf or branch decides on its own 'i will grow on that vine' -- but the husbandmen grafts a branch in, or the vine sprouts a bud, and then there the branches grow.

if you want to argue against this doctrine, you should use the scripture itself, not 'calvie blah blah no context' and then not provide any context of your own. otherwise, all you've done is slander a theological camp. your argument is little more than a bumper sticker.

now if you were to look at the entirety of Leviticus chapter 26, you will see immediately a radically different picture than you do isolating verse 26.

Is this not what I said would happen... Calvie here shouts "context" about verses that point out "my deficient" method...when the whole point of the exercise was not for me to give a defined contextual argument about John... now the calvie takes what I put as tongue in cheek and argues with his OWN foundation to try to prove that he takes things in context, all the while trying to put the focus on me as someone who provides no context..what a laugh.

@posthuman... how about looking at who he's talking to...that would be a place to start. Is this a passage you can just generalize to apply to the doctrines of salvation? How about going back to where the whole conversation thread begins... the whole context of this is not the beginning of chapter 15... this conversation is happening after Judas leaves for the purpose of betraying Christ. John 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. is the audience described...And again the audience is confirmed later in that same chapter i.e. no one opened the door and yelled "Hey world listen to what's happening in here! This is Jesus talking to you!!"
Joh 13:30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
Joh 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.




this is not talking to the masses of humanity! This is Christ talking to the 11 that are left, confirming what he has said elsewhere i.e. Have I not chosen you and one of you is a devil? This is not talking about some pre-existent choosing of God for all the elect. This is talking about that Jesus came to each of his disciples and said "Follow me". Go ahead "read the context" and check the audience, read from 13:30 to 15:16 and following you will find no break in the conversation...what does that mean? It means he is still talking to the 11 and addressing issues that they would need to know before his death. There is nothing more here than a confirmation that those who were in that room were chosen to be the foundation of what was to come. There is no mention here of some grand plan of choosing all men. It simply isn't there.

Want more confirmation..? Check the context following... read all the way to John 18:1. John 13-18 is all one conversation..
Joh 18:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples.
Joh 18:2 And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.



BTW notice how calvies divert, pretend to use context and still didn't don't it. There is no great mystery here, Christ is not teaching Calvinism. Calvinists just have such a short attention span biblically that they can't stay focused from John 13-18 without jumping down the rabbit trail when they see buzz word.All this to make it look like reformed theology is biblical and that God chooses some and not others.And to think that all they had to do was spend 15 minutes reading a few chapters and they could have had it right. Shameful.

 

[Butch5]

There is just too many scriptures that support predestination... for me to discard the teaching completely... its a bitter pill to swallow to consider I may by chance not be chosen though.... but if it is God's will for me to be Judas as opposed to Paul, I suppose it is his choice...

Hi ThePottersClay,

Not to worry, the issue of predestination does not speak of God predetermining if this person will be saved and that one wont', that idea comes from taking the passages out of context. There are things that God has predetermined but which individual person is saved isn't one of them. Basically, God has a plan that He determined to fulfill, it is a promise that He made to Abraham. Predetermination is God choosing certain people that He will use for that purpose. Even in this choosing of people it is within that persons ability to reject their calling. If you want I can elaborate further as this subject is greatly misunderstood.

 

[Inquisitor]

I took it COG is his church, regardless of heresy ...a highjack nonetheless.

Ah, point taken, you are probably right.

 

[posthuman]

i'm not a "calvie" -- i'm a human being who reads and believes the Bible.
i think it will help us all if we recognize each other as living persons, not plastic models of some theological abstraction.

speaking of 'diversion' --- if your only case against the plain reading of the text is that Jesus was talking to His disciples, not to us, how about we look at what one of the Lord's chosen apostles says to a more general body of believers?

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)

if the Lord is not also speaking to us when He says "I have chosen you" -- is He neither speaking to us when He says
"These things I command you, that ye love one another"?

 

[posthuman]

i didn't choose to exist.

 

[isfreewilltrue]

Wow your a liar!

 

[Inquisitor]

i'm not a "calvie" -- i'm a human being who reads and believes the Bible.
i think it will help us all if we recognize each other as living persons, not plastic models of some theological abstraction.

speaking of 'diversion' --- if your only case against the plain reading of the text is that Jesus was talking to His disciples, not to us, how about we look at what one of the Lord's chosen apostles says to a more general body of believers?

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)

if the Lord is not also speaking to us when He says "I have chosen you" -- is He neither speaking to us when He says
"These things I command you, that ye love one another"?

Well, you are a calvie...which also is a synonym for a human being who wants to use the Bible however he wants. Such a subtle attempt to plead humanity in the place of theological analysis. Will the next defense be.. I'm only human and we make mistakes... do you, have perfect theology??! Anyrate... heard one , heard 'em all.

Incidently...How can "context" somehow be a "case" against 'the plain reading of the text'? These things are somehow different? You attempt to make a distinction where there isn't a difference, sir. A 'plain reading of the text' cannot happen without the entire context and as this is ONE conversation... you cannot get a 'plain reading of the text' without 'reading' all of it. Your employment of creating additional "contexts" by proof-texting something out of Thessalonians as if it was even the same dispensation is hilarious. Your argument implies that all audiences "one-size-fits all" which clearly shows further agenda that can be demonstrated. You are more than willing to state that Christ in the upper room speaking to the 11 was speaking to all believers, yet when it is stated that he will draw all men, suddenly that is limited to the elect (even though there is NO context anywhere that states that) and also when it is stated that God loves the world, suddenly that audience is limited to the elect (also without context). However, when he IS only speaking to 11 people, he is most certainly speaking to all believers... could this be any more obvious what you are doing... And again, your only justification for the "fact" that he is doing this is that you found a verse somewhere else that has the buzz word "chosen". Cannibalism anyone?

If you want to discuss the parsing of 2 Thessalonians, trust me it will not go well for your argument there due to the obvious and watertight modification of the greek prepositions toward the main verbal idea. But that is a different audience and a completely different discussion that ..wait for it.. actually mentions salvation...

Does the passage in John do so?? Anywhere?? Going once... going twice...sold! to the plastic model of a theological abstraction in the black hat...

 

[posthuman]

Well, you are a calvie...which also is a synonym for a human being who wants to use the Bible however he wants.

ok i can see now it's no use talking to you about this. thanks for your time!

 

[john316forall]

Your argument implies that all audiences "one-size-fits all" which clearly shows further agenda that can be demonstrated. You are more than willing to state that Christ in the upper room speaking to the 11 was speaking to all believers, yet when it is stated that he will draw all men, suddenly that is limited to the elect (even though there is NO context anywhere that states that) and also when it is stated that God loves the world, suddenly that audience is limited to the elect (also without context). However, when he IS only speaking to 11 people, he is most certainly speaking to all believers... could this be any more obvious what you are doing... And again, your only justification for the "fact" that he is doing this is that you found a verse somewhere else that has the buzz word "chosen"....

Posting your quote because it's worth reading twice for those who can't see how Calvinism 'redefines the word of God.'

 

[crossnote]

Inquisitor,
So where do you stand on the question, "Do we Choose God or did He choose us"?

 

[Inquisitor]

ok i can see now it's no use talking to you about this. thanks for your time!

Nice cop-out, however, anytime you would like to actually challenge the absurd interpretations that calvies force upon the scripture, I would be more than glad to refer you to the actual reading scripture to guide you back into the way of truth.

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

There is only ONE faith. There is ONE Spirit and He doesn't contradict himself. That means he definitely is not a Calvinist. This doesn't mean that we all co-exist in our own flavors of heresy and tolerate one another. It means we strive to bring others to doctrinal understanding so that there may be peace. Without agreement in doctrine there is no agreement in the Spirit thus there is no peace of the Spirit among "brethren". This can only be done through reading the Bible in context. While some calvies may be our brethren, they are deceived and must be shown the truth. Do not err my beloved brethren.While there is Christian liberty, no "Christian" has the liberty to openly disagree with the clear doctrines of scripture and then pretend that they have some type of theological reason to do so. Be warned, today you seen just the tip of calvinistic argumentation... and tactics. i.e. stay while the context can be twisted, leave when you begin to be exposed for what you are. Don't be fooled.

 

[Inquisitor]

Inquisitor,
So where do you stand on the question, "Do we Choose God or did He choose us"?

Well the first thing I would say, crossnote, is that you will be hardpressed to find a question asked by a calvie that actually has the intention of discovering the truth. This question from the start is intended to create a false platform for discussion that plays into the hand of the calvinist.

Notice that the question itself provides only two options both of which are implicative of salvation, both of which disallow qualification. I.e. He is the sovereign God who does everything or we are the inglorious, ungrateful men who having been chosen, deny the one making the choice and steal his glory by pretending we have free-will.THIS, is the true trap behind the question that calvies are asking you to pick between.

So my standing, is that this is the wrong question. Let me again illustrate. We are all willing to see that there can be wrong answers to questions, but few people are willing to admit that there are "wrong questions". For instance we are all willing to see the absurdity in the question "Can God make a rock so big that he cannot lift it?" Why? Because it pits two incontrovertible attributes of God against each other in an effort to discredit his person as presented in scripture.

Think carefully... does the Calvinist do any less when basically telling someone that God has made men so depraved that even he cannot save them, that God has made man so depraved that he a worm of a man cannot hear or understand his maker... effectively posing the same question in a different forum. "Can God make a man so depraved that he cannot save him?" Yet people fawn over the Calvinist as if he were an intellectual "asking the hard questions" when really he is a charlatan with a carpet bag full of proof texts with some "great deals" just for you.

If I have not worn out my welcome on this topic to those ears who are listening, crossnote, I would sincerely love to go through a consideration of Ephesians 1 and following to discuss the choice of God, what it is, what was chosen and what it means for us, with demonstrable scriptural evidence, no proof-texts and something of substance that will embolden and empower every believer who has not yet understood what the Lord has shown us. I would love to vanquish the specter of calvinistic interpretation from those in its shackles so that they can be free to see the Lord as he portrays himself.

This question is not where the answer lies, nor does the question actually arise from Eph 1 as the calvinist claims it does. We must go to scripture to learn whether such a question has the right to be asked, and having seen the evidence, deny those who continue to ask it, the right to do so, as we would in any other absurd circumstance.

 

[Grandpa]

John 6:43-45
[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

God chooses us.

 

[Angela53510]

I am not a Calvinist but I am totally convinced by experience and the Word of God that God chose me!

"God demonstrates his love for us in this, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you." John 14:16

"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." Eph. 1:4

That is a lot of verses that tell us God is sovereign and he chooses us!

 

[crossnote]

Well the first thing I would say, crossnote, is that you will be hardpressed to find a question asked by a calvie that actually has the intention of discovering the truth. This question from the start is intended to create a false platform for discussion that plays into the hand of the calvinist.

Notice that the question itself provides only two options both of which are implicative of salvation, both of which disallow qualification. I.e. He is the sovereign God who does everything or we are the inglorious, ungrateful men who having been chosen, deny the one making the choice and steal his glory by pretending we have free-will.THIS, is the true trap behind the question that calvies are asking you to pick between.

So my standing, is that this is the wrong question. Let me again illustrate. We are all willing to see that there can be wrong answers to questions, but few people are willing to admit that there are "wrong questions". For instance we are all willing to see the absurdity in the question "Can God make a rock so big that he cannot lift it?" Why? Because it pits two incontrovertible attributes of God against each other in an effort to discredit his person as presented in scripture.

Think carefully... does the Calvinist do any less when basically telling someone that God has made men so depraved that even he cannot save them, that God has made man so depraved that he a worm of a man cannot hear or understand his maker... effectively posing the same question in a different forum. "Can God make a man so depraved that he cannot save him?" Yet people fawn over the Calvinist as if he were an intellectual "asking the hard questions" when really he is a charlatan with a carpet bag full of proof texts with some "great deals" just for you.

If I have not worn out my welcome on this topic to those ears who are listening, crossnote, I would sincerely love to go through a consideration of Ephesians 1 and following to discuss the choice of God, what it is, what was chosen and what it means for us, with demonstrable scriptural evidence, no proof-texts and something of substance that will embolden and empower every believer who has not yet understood what the Lord has shown us. I would love to vanquish the specter of calvinistic interpretation from those in its shackles so that they can be free to see the Lord as he portrays himself.

This question is not where the answer lies, nor does the question actually arise from Eph 1 as the calvinist claims it does. We must go to scripture to learn whether such a question has the right to be asked, and having seen the evidence, deny those who continue to ask it, the right to do so, as we would in any other absurd circumstance.

I only quoted the title of the thread asking you where you stood. Apparantly the title didn't stop you from participating so I didn't think it would prevent you from answering it's question.

 

[Angela53510]

I do not think of my own wicked volition I would have ever chosen God. He reached down into my dark and sinful life and called me to be his own, a command you do refuse!

God is the originator of our faith! He is the author and finisher of our faith!

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2

The author is the one who writes the book - that is the book of life and the book of our lives. It is arrogance and pride to think we write it or that we choose God. The freewill lie!