Do We Have To Keep The Law?

[Katy-follower]

Just thinking... if this all gets lost with the maintenance you'll all have to start over. Lol.

 

[Yahshua]

you have a problem with logic dear.

you keep say the word of God never pass before heaven and earth pass

the word of God say congregation, not Jesus must kill sabbath violator,

if this word not pass yet, why change, not congregation kill violator, but Jesus

you fail to understand this simple change

in Moses time, God ask congregation to kill sabbath violator

in John time, Jesus

Let me help you to understand logic. Answer my question

is that mean numbers 15 pass away?

Might be easier to address the logic with an example:

You have a son and he's in charge of your house while you're away.

You tell him he can have friends over but no one is allowed into his study, and if anyone disrespects your rule they must be kicked out. This rule stands as long as your house stands.

Let's say he has a mini gathering with friends and some classmates, but he needs to run to the store so he leaves his best friend in charge. The son tells everyone, "No one is allowed in my Father's study. if anyone goes in there they'll be kick out."

Several people are caught trying to sneak into the study to snoop around so they're kicked out by the best friend.

...Your son returns and re-assumes his authority over the house. The authority you gave him. Your authority. He sees someone rush into your study. Investigating, the son discovers that his best friend just ran in there because earlier - while guarding the room - she noticed there was an extra bathroom in the study where she could relieve herself. Turns out, the main bathroom was occupied and she has a very weak bladder.

She exits and profusely apologies for going in the study but explains the situation and asks not to be kicked out.

Your son says, "It's cool. But I don't want my dad angry so just don't go in there anymore Ok? Or I'll have to kick you out."

Your son calls his Father, you, and tells you about the situation regarding his best friend, who you've met several times and so you know she's a very respectful kid though she still broke your house rule.


---

Questions to consider:

1. Did your son change your rule...or did he extend mercy to the rule-breaker and then mediate on her behalf?

2. While the son was gone, was his best friend ever in a position of authority to extend mercy or allow any friends into your study for any reason without consequence? She isn't your daughter, so as only a steward of your rule, did she ever have the power to do anything other than carry out your son's exact instructions (your instructions), to the letter?

3. Was she ever in a position of authority to break the rule herself?

4. As the father and homeowner, would you have accepted your son's mediation and forgiven his friend...or would you have punished the son for his friend's disobedience since he was in charge, placing the burden of her actions on him...or would you have banned the best friend from your home?

5. As the owner of the home and father who sets the rules, wouldn't you have been justified no matter your decision to the question above?

----

Often times it's hard to see what's going on because we get so lost in the scriptural academics of what we're studying or arguing (i.e. doctrines, translations, text, etc) that we can miss the truth of what's being conveyed to us: It's an example of the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law...and also an example of being a guest in the Father's house vs. a child & heir of the Father.

So no, it isn't a change of the law to say that all judgment was given to the Son. And the Numbers 15 rule hasn't passed away. Sabbath is still the day of rest for man, set-apart as holy and commanded as a rule by the Father...but the Son & heir of the house came and all judgment was his.

I hope this helps.

 

[Jackson123]

Might be easier to address the logic with an example:

You have a son and he's in charge of your house while you're away.

You tell him he can have friends over but no one is allowed into his study, and if anyone disrespects your rule they must be kicked out. This rule stands as long as your house stands.

Let's say he has a mini gathering with friends and some classmates, but he needs to run to the store so he leaves his best friend in charge. The son tells everyone, "No one is allowed in my Father's study. if anyone goes in there they'll be kick out."

Several people are caught trying to sneak into the study to snoop around so they're kicked out by the best friend.

...Your son returns and re-assumes his authority over the house. The authority you gave him. Your authority. He sees someone rush into your study. Investigating, the son discovers that his best friend just ran in there because earlier - while guarding the room - she noticed there was an extra bathroom in the study where she could relieve herself. Turns out, the main bathroom was occupied and she has a very weak bladder.

She exits and profusely apologies for going in the study but explains the situation and asks not to be kicked out.

Your son says, "It's cool. But I don't want my dad angry so just don't go in there anymore Ok? Or I'll have to kick you out."

Your son calls his Father, you, and tells you about the situation regarding his best friend, who you've met several times and so you know she's a very respectful kid though she still broke your house rule.


---

Questions to consider:

1. Did your son change your rule...or did he extend mercy to the rule-breaker and then mediate on her behalf?

2. While the son was gone, was his best friend ever in a position of authority to extend mercy or allow any friends into your study for any reason without consequence? She isn't your daughter, so as only a steward of your rule, did she ever have the power to do anything other than carry out your son's exact instructions (your instructions), to the letter?

3. Was she ever in a position of authority to break the rule herself?

4. As the father and homeowner, would you have accepted your son's mediation and forgiven his friend...or would you have punished the son for his friend's disobedience since he was in charge, placing the burden of her actions on him...or would you have banned the best friend from your home?

5. As the owner of the home and father who sets the rules, wouldn't you have been justified no matter your decision to the question above?

----

Often times it's hard to see what's going on because we get so lost in the scriptural academics of what we're studying or arguing (i.e. doctrines, translations, text, etc) that we can miss the truth of what's being conveyed to us: It's an example of the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law...and also an example of being a guest in the Father's house vs. a child & heir of the Father.

So no, it isn't a change of the law to say that all judgment was given to the Son. And the Numbers 15 rule hasn't passed away. Sabbath is still the day of rest for man, set-apart as holy and commanded as a rule by the Father...but the Son & heir of the house came and all judgment was his.

I hope this helps.

So you believe numbers 15 is not pass away, still in effect. Why don't you do it?

when God ask congregation to kill violator, who set up the rule? The answer is God not Moses.

And brother shamah keep say, God word never pass away, never change, unfortunately he only believe weekly sabbath not change, but kill sabbath violator pass away.

He change the verse. To him The verse must say, only weekly sabbath law not change, the rest of the law like kill sabbath violator has been change.

 

[Ralph-]

Paul is speaking of/to both the Judaizers and fellow believers. He's condemning the Judaizers by saying if they remain in that state, they can not be saved. NOT that they were saved and then lost salvation. And he questions his fellow believers when he asks them why would they even want to go back to all the rules and regulations they struggled under and could never fulfill.

Yet again, not a single hint of one being born again and losing their salvation.

But I understand - you're desperate. You keep using that verse, because out of the whole New Testament, that's as close as you're going to get.

I showed you where it plainly says Paul is talking to saved Galatians and that they will not gain the inheritance by becoming slaves to the law again.

Now you show us where it plainly says he is talking to unsaved Galatians.

 

[Katy-follower]

No, Paul explained to the Galatians that what they were doing by turning back to the law for justification and away from Christ would exclude them from inheriting the kingdom. He explained to them how trying to be justified by the law is to be a son of a slave woman--a slave woman's son who does not inherit the kingdom with the sons of the free woman:

"But what does the Scripture say?

“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FORTHE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”-Galatians 4:30

​

See, Paul is plainly telling them this is indeed a matter of salvation for them to turn to the slavery of the law by trying to be justified by the law and turning away from the justification they have through faith in Christ. You lose your justification in Christ when you do that, and as a result you will not inherit the kingdom of God.

You need to read the whole chapter, not just random verses. V31 concludes that chapter...

V31: "So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free"

And then onto the next chapter (verses here in context)....

Galatians 5:1: "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage"

The believers who have become entangled again do not lose their salvation, but they will lose their joy!!! It's sad because they were slaves, bought out of the slave market (no longer slaves of sin), set free, and yet they've become entangled in that bondage that usually only the lost are stuck in. Nothing to do with losing salvation, but more about their joy, since they'll always be fretting about everything.



Two groups are mentioned. There are non believers trying to be justified by the flesh (Galatians 5:4) ~ and there are believers trying to be made perfect by the flesh (Galatians 3:3).

Galatians 3:3: "Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?"

Galatians 5:4-5: "You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
For we (because we, believers) through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith"

The ones who have fallen from grace are those who are attempting to be justified by the law!! So they're not saved to begin with... they are attempting to be saved the wrong way! They reject Christ. This is not believers losing salvation.

It even concludes with "Because we (believers)" making that distinction between the lost and the saved.

 

[Shamah]

You need to read the whole chapter, not just random verses. V31 concludes that chapter...

V31: "So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free"

And then onto the next chapter (verses here in context)....

Galatians 5:1: "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage"

The believers who have become entangled again do not lose their salvation, but they will lose their joy!!! It's sad because they were slaves, bought out of the slave market (no longer slaves of sin), set free, and yet they've become entangled in that bondage that usually only the lost are stuck in. Nothing to do with losing salvation, but more about their joy, since they'll always be fretting about everything.



Two groups are mentioned. There are non believers trying to be justified by the flesh (Galatians 5:4) ~ and there are believers trying to be made perfect by the flesh (Galatians 3:3).

Galatians 3:3: "Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?"

Galatians 5:4-5: "You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
For we (because we, believers) through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith"

The ones who have fallen from grace are those who are attempting to be justified by the law!! So they're not saved to begin with... they are attempting to be saved the wrong way! They reject Christ. This is not believers losing salvation.

It even concludes with "Because we (believers)" making that distinction between the lost and the saved.

is seeking to be justified by the Law and following it the same thing?

because Paul who wrote that also wrote this:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy, so I (Paul) worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you (Paul), yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Corinthians 7:19, "For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of Yah?"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), YHWH; for it is not subject to the Law of YHWH, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please YHWH."

he even said above in Romans 8 that the carnal mind man can not even make himself subject to YHWH's Law...
[/FONT]

 

[lightbearer]

You need to read the whole chapter, not just random verses.

Many do that here totally missing the context. It is a letter and for the most part needs to be understood in it's entirety.

Galatians 5:4-5: "You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
For we (because we, believers) through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith"

Verse five brings us back to chapter two.

For we through to Spirit eagerly wait for the expectation of righteousness out of faith. For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any strength, but faith working through love.

What Faith? Christ's; His Faith through HIS indwelling Spirit becomes ours.

For we have been crucified with Christ, and we live; yet no longer us, but Christ lives in us. And the life we now live in the flesh, we live by the faith of the Son of God, the One loving us and giving Himself for us. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness is through law, then Christ died without cause. O foolish Galatians, who bewitched you not to obey the truth, to whom before your eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed among you, crucified? This only I desire to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of law or by hearing of faith?

What if the hearing of Faith? Adhering to That still small voice of GOD that gets louder and Louder through Christ's indwelling!

Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now perfect yourself in the flesh? Did you suffer so much vainly, if indeed it also was vainly? Then He supplying the Spirit to you and working works of power in you, is it by works of law or by hearing of faith? Even "as Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Gen 15:6
(Gal 5:5-6; 2:20-3:6)

Abraham heard GOD's instructions and acted accordingly. As we hear GOD's instructions through Christ's indwelling and act accordingly.

 

[graceNpeace]

All completely out of context...

is seeking to be justified by the Law and following it the same thing?

because Paul who wrote that also wrote this:

Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."


Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"

Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy, so I (Paul) worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."

Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you (Paul), yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

1 Corinthians 7:19, "For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of Yah?"

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), YHWH; for it is not subject to the Law of YHWH, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please YHWH."

he even said above in Romans 8 that the carnal mind man can not even make himself subject to YHWH's Law...

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The ones who have fallen from grace are those who are attempting to be justified by the law!! So they're not saved to begin with... they are attempting to be saved the wrong way! They reject Christ. This is not believers losing salvation.

This is not true. They were gentile believers who had been told by Christian pharisees from Jerusalem that they had to keep the law of Moses to be saved.

 

[graceNpeace]

Had a problem with the five minute edit rule...so needed to repost
All completely out of context...

is seeking to be justified by the Law and following it the same thing?

because Paul who wrote that also wrote this:

[FONT=&quot]Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"[/FONT]

As per usual wild cherry picking is going on here...
What law is Paul establishing?
The Torah!
No way!
Lets put these verses in context and see what happens:
"27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith?Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." Rom 3:27-31

Paul has spent all his time in this epistle establishing this point:
"20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Rom 3:20
Now Paul is ready to move on and explain on what basis the New covenant believer is justified; the real source of righteousness, since it cannot come from the Law!

"21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe." Rom 3:21
So what is Paul about to reveal?
The following verses unveil the mystery:
"For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." Rom 3:22-26
Paul reveals that justification and righteousness before God is PURELY by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, who serves as a propitiation (expiation or atonement) for our sins.
God justifies those who have faith in the saving work of Jesus Christ (Rom 3:26).

Then Paul introduces a new concept that he calls the law of faith (Rom 3:27).
He states again that man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the Law - in other words working at the Law or obedient to it does not save.
Paul then emphasises that God is not just the God of the Jews but of the Gentiles also. And he explains the basis on which either can be justified and it is only one thing: by faith (Rom 3:30).

In Rom 3:31 he then goes on to make the statement that all the legalists misinterpret, either in ignorance or deliberately, "Do we then make void the law through faith?Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."
What is the law Paul is referring ot here?
The Law - as in the Torah?
Most emphatically not!
Paul is referring to this, "but by the law of faith." Rom 3:27
He has been talking non-stop since vs 20 about faith, and the fact that faith is the basis for justification!
And does Paul stop here in vs 31?
No!
The whole of Romans chapter 4 is spent explaining how faith justifies, with an in-depth exposition of how and why Abraham was justified by faith!

So there is no conflict at all between vs 28, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. ", this talking about the Law (Torah), and Paul then saying, vs 31, "Do we then make void the law through faith?Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.", because, what is being established is the law of faith, not the Torah!

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy, so I (Paul) worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."[/FONT]

I am in the same boat here with Paul, I too believe all the things written in the Law and Prophets...
And, like Paul I understand, because I believe the things that are written in the Law and the Prophets, that the Sinaitic covent is NOT binding on New covenant believers!

[FONT=&quot]Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."[/FONT]

I cannot quote the whole of chapter 7.
However, Paul has explains how one is free from the Law (Torah) in vs 1-7.
He then explains how the Law itself is not evil, but the only result of the Law (Torah) is to produce sin, and its consequence, death! (Rom 7:7-25).
Paul compares and contrasts two laws in this passage, the law of God, and, the law of sin.
He also talks about the law of my mind, and, the law of my members.
The law of God is linked to the law of my mind, and, the law of sin to the law of my members.
How can this be decoded as what is being referred to ?
Rom 7:6 is the key, "6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."
Paul tells us we have been delivered from the Law (Torah), and are no longer held by its demands.
Instead we are to serve God in the newness of the Spirit rather than the oldness of the letter!

So the law of God referred to later is the newness of the Spirit (not the Torah), and the law of sin referred to is no the Torah either, but the law of sin is nonetheless informed by the Law (Torah), "13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful." Rom 7:13

So, conclusion: Romans 7:25 is not reference to the Torah and serving the Torah!

[FONT=&quot]Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you (Paul), yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."[/FONT]

If this quote is to try and "prove" that Paul kept the Law (Torah) then it is doomed to failure!
Look what happens just a couple of verses later, "28 crying out, “Men of Israel, help! This is the man who teaches all men everywhere against the people, the law, and this place; and furthermore he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place.” " Acts 21:28.
It is Paul who is being, correctly accused fo forsaking the Law (Torah).

And lets back up a couple of verses and see whether the events between Acts 21:24 and Acts 21:28 were ever meant be generalisable to all New covenant believers...
vs 25 gives the answer, "25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing,[d] except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”"!
Is this a command to observe the Torah?
Absolutely not!
It is a summary of the prior decision made during the Jerusalem council and explicitly states that none of the observances (based on the Torah) that those four Jewish believers were about to make had any bearing on Gentile believers!
Considering the conclusions drawn above in exegeting Romans chapter 3, these observances were not binding on Jewish believers either!

[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 7:19, "For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of Yah?"[/FONT]

If Paul can say that circumcision counts for nothing, AND, only the circumcised (Jews) were bound to the Law, how then can the clause, "but keeping the commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19, be a reference to the Law (Torah)?

[FONT=&quot]Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), YHWH; for it is not subject to the Law of YHWH, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please YHWH."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
he even said above in Romans 8 that the carnal mind man can not even make himself subject to YHWH's Law...
[/FONT]

Look above to the discussion on Romans chapter 7 to see why the phrase "the law of God" Rom 8:7, is not a reference to the Torah.
The discussion Paul is engaging in here in chapter 8 is just a direct continuation of that in Romans chapter 7!
The context, starting in Romans chapter 7 makes it abundantly clear that the "law of God" is mediated by the Holy Spirit, and not the Torah.
It just becomes more obvious in chapter 8...

And, yes it is clear that trying to follow and observe the Law (Torah) is EXACTLY the same as trying to be justified by the Law!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is not true. They were gentile believers who had been told by Christian pharisees from Jerusalem that they had to keep the law of Moses to be saved.

While true, paul is explaining that those who place their faith in law never really had faith in christ to begin with. Just bcause peopl say they trust god does not make it true, what you really have faith in will be exposed. Thats why it is said that who a person really is will be understood. An antichrist was never saved, a person who recerts to judaism never had faith in christianity, a man who returns to the world never trusted god to begin with, they trusted the worlds view.

 

[Grandpa]

Paul explains it over and over but those who are led away with the error of the wicked can't grasp it.

Hebrews 7:12-16

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

The priesthood was changed so those who follow that High Priest have a different law.

Those who follow this High Priest no longer follow the law of a carnal commandment but rather the law that leads to an endless life.

Paul keeps explaining it in epistle after epistle.

2 Corinthians 3:6-9
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Do you see how these epistles are talking about the same thing?

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter (Not of the carnal commandment), but of the spirit (after the power of an endless life): for the letter killeth (the Carnal Commandment), but the spirit giveth life (The Power of an Endless Life).

Here is some more;

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law (the letter, a carnal commandment), but under grace (the spirit, the power of an endless life).

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden (from your work at the law, the letter, a carnal commandment), and I will give you rest (grace, the spirit, the power of an endless life).

Galatians 5:1

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free (Grace, the Spirit, the Power of an endless Life), and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage (the law, the letter, a carnal commandment).​

Galatians 3:3

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit (Grace, the power of an endless life, Rest), are ye now made perfect by the flesh (the law, the letter, a carnal commandment) ?​

​

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[Studyman]

=Grandpa;3573075]

Paul explains it over and over but those who are led away with the error of the wicked can't grasp it.

Hebrews 7:12-16

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

The priesthood was changed so those who follow that High Priest have a different law

.

That is just not true GP.. The Law said only Levites can hold the office of the Priesthood. It's in your Bible. This is specifically telling us the Priesthood couldn't be changed unless the Law requiring who could perform the Priesthood duties was changed to allow a person from the tribe of Judah to inherit it.

Those who follow this High Priest no longer follow the law of a carnal commandment but rather the law that leads to an endless life.

I see you have changed your preaching here and started acknowledging the Priesthood at least. Quite a change in religious doctrines from a couple months ago.

But you are still mistaken. You need to answer what process "made" a Levite Priest? Was it being Faithful to God the Father in all things as was Jesus unto death? Or were Levite Priests appointed (Made) by other carnal humans according to the Levitical Priesthood Laws?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
[SUP]16 [/SUP][SUP][/SUP]Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Jesus wasn't "appointed" to the Priesthood by other Levites as Moses instructed. The Priesthood changed, THEREFORE, it was necessary for a change ALSO in the Law.

A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
​

 

[La_Vie_En_Rose]

No we do not. We are saved BY GRACE, through faith. Here is the kicker “and that, not of yourselves, it is the gift of God”. We don’t even have faith by ourselves.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Jesus wasn't "appointed" to the Priesthood by other Levites as Moses instructed.

Yes he was. John, the greatest Levite who ever lived, commissioned Jesus as high priest. That is when the priesthood changed from the order of Aaron to the order of Melchizedek, and by necessity, the law also was changed.

 

[Grandpa]

=Grandpa;3573075]

Paul explains it over and over but those who are led away with the error of the wicked can't grasp it.

Hebrews 7:12-16

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

.

That is just not true GP.. The Law said only Levites can hold the office of the Priesthood. It's in your Bible. This is specifically telling us the Priesthood couldn't be changed unless the Law requiring who could perform the Priesthood duties was changed to allow a person from the tribe of Judah to inherit it.



I see you have changed your preaching here and started acknowledging the Priesthood at least. Quite a change in religious doctrines from a couple months ago.

But you are still mistaken. You need to answer what process "made" a Levite Priest? Was it being Faithful to God the Father in all things as was Jesus unto death? Or were Levite Priests appointed (Made) by other carnal humans according to the Levitical Priesthood Laws?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Jesus wasn't "appointed" to the Priesthood by other Levites as Moses instructed. The Priesthood changed, THEREFORE, it was necessary for a change ALSO in the Law.

A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
​

The priesthood is not really the most important subject of Hebrews 7.

I know that you think it is. But that's what happens with people who don't understand scripture. They place the emphasis on the wrong subject.

We have a new High Priest, Therefore, we have a new law.

Romans 8:2

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Galatians 5:1

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Romans 6:14

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

It doesn't seem to matter how many different ways Paul explains this, legalists and judaizers always manage to twist it into the opposite of what he is really saying.

I guess the only chance for people who are being led away with the error of the wicked is to Come to Christ and grow in His Grace and the Knowledge of His Salvation. But why would you if you didn't know you were being led away with the error of the wicked?

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man (working at the 10 Commandments) but the end thereof is death.

2 Corinthians 3:7

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Galatians 3:10

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.​

[SUB][/SUB]​

​

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[Studyman]

Had a problem with the five minute edit rule...so needed to repost
All completely out of context...


As per usual wild cherry picking is going on here...
What law is Paul establishing?
The Torah!
No way!

Lets put these verses in context and see what happens:
"27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

It seems prudent that you should establish what the "Law of Works" are and what the "Law of Faith" is so as to better understand him who is difficult to understand.

As the Old Testament teaches "The just shall live by Faith".

So Paul is speaking about "justification" yes?

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

In Greek this word means equitable, innocent, holy, just, right (eous) to render, show or regard as innocent, free, justify, be righteous.

In the Old Testament there was a Priesthood whose specific duty was to perform certain ceremonial, sacrificial "Works" for the atonement of sins. These "works" were created to cleanse, remove, atone for, the sins of the people so they could be considered "righteous, innocent, not guilty, free,"

This Priesthood and the Laws associated with it are the "Law of Works" Paul was speaking about. The Jews were still pushing their version of these "Works of the Law" for justification of sins. Abraham didn't have these Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" performed by Levite Priests to cleanse his sin. Levi wasn't born yet, these laws weren't added until 430 years later.

We are now justified by the "The Law of Faith", on which the entire Law and Prophets hang. Namely "Love the Lord you God with all your heart"

Duet. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORDThe Word which became Flesh in the person of the Christ)5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: (The intent in the first place)

And the 2nd greatest Commandment (LAW)

Lev. 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. (Word which became Flesh in the Person of Jesus)

The entire Law and Prophets teach us how to Love God, and how to love our neighbor. That's why we are encouraged to study to show ourselves approved. These are requirements of repentance without which there is no justification, removal of sins, etc.

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

They are the "Law of Faith". We are judged by these Commandments. These are not a "Law of works" as are the Priesthood duties, rather, these are a "Law of faith".

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by (The Law of) faith without the deeds of the law.(of works)

This "Law of Faith" hereafter referred to as "Faith" are the "good works" The Bible speaks of. As Paul said, they are "good", Just, holy.

Paul speaks to these Laws in Romans 2.

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing (Law of Faith)seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil,(Doesn't Love God or their neighbor as God instructs) of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good,(Abides by the Law of faith as instructed) to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

We are judged by this Law of Faith.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law(od Faith) are just before God, but the doers of the law(of faith) shall be justified.

Abraham didn't have the Law of Works, but He did have God's Commandments which contain the Law of Faith and how to abide by them. He trusted in God enough to follow these instructions and this was called "Faith". We are all blessed because of his Love for God.

Gen. 26:And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

I think that because you don't know the difference between the Law of works and the Law of faith, you are confused about Paul's teaching.

I'm hoping you might consider.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through (The Law of) faith;9Love God, Love your brother) and that not of yourselvesGod created what faith is) it is the gift of God:

9 Not of (Law of ) works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,(Law of faith) which God hath before ordained (Love God and Love our neighbor as instructed)that we should walk in them.

There are many who preach Jesus abolished the "law of Faith", destroyed it, changed it, re-wrote it and on and on. But He created it, walked in it, preached it as did His Apostles. AS he said;

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

And of course it would be this way, God is perfect.

The rest of your post seem centered on your misunderstanding of the Law that is gone and the Law that is still here so no need to address that part until we settle this foundational issue IMO.

 

[Grandpa]

This Priesthood and the Laws associated with it are the "Law of Works" Paul was speaking about. The Jews were still pushing their version of these "Works of the Law" for justification of sins. Abraham didn't have these Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" performed by Levite Priests to cleanse his sin. Levi wasn't born yet, these laws weren't added until 430 years later.

I've seen some twisting of scripture before but this is really bad.

Galatians 3:10

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Paul is only talking to Levitical priests here?

Matthew 11:28

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Is the Lord only offering Levitical Priests this rest from their labour at the law?


C'mon, man​

​

 

[graceNpeace]

Had a problem with the five minute edit rule...so needed to repost
All completely out of context...


As per usual wild cherry picking is going on here...
What law is Paul establishing?
The Torah!
No way!

It seems prudent that you should establish what the "Law of Works" are and what the "Law of Faith" is so as to better understand him who is difficult to understand.

LOL...

This old chestnut!
Paul is NOT difficult to understand...
Obviously, for some, he is difficult to accept...
Very different!

 

[Studyman]

I've seen some twisting of scripture before but this is really bad.

Galatians 3:10

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Paul is only talking to Levitical priests here?

Matthew 11:28

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Is the Lord only offering Levitical Priests this rest from their labour at the law?

C'mon, man​

​

I'm just applying Paul's teaching and addressing who is teaching about.

Gal. 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

There are two choices here as there were in Romans 3. Law of Works, Law of faith.

Whoever was "bewitching" the Galatians were trying to get them to follow a LAW. Does Paul teach us to "Love the Lord" and "Love our neighbor", both Laws given by God in the OT. Of course he did.

Do you believe the Jews are trying to get these Galatians to "Love the Lord your God with all their heart" and to "Love their neighbor"? Or are they trying to get the Galatians to accept them and their version of the Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins?

Can the blood of goats take away sin? C'mon man, You know it can't. So if I'm relying on the blood of goats to take away my sins, I had better not sin had I. But Grandpa, I have already sinned. So if I am relying on the "Works of the Law" given through Moses for the remission of sins, I'm still and will always by under the "curse of the Law", dead in my sins. Why? Because it is impossible for the blood of goats to take away my sin.

"for as many who are under the "Law of Works" for the remission of sins are under the curse" Because if I am relying on these "Works" and not in the (Law of ) Faith I have fallen from Grace.

Let me ask you something and please show me the common decency to answer.

Matt. 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.29 Take my ( The Word which became Flesh) yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD,(The Word which became Flesh) Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Is this the same Lord in your religion?