Do you believe there is going to be a pre-tribulation rapture?

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Jul 17, 2009
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#41
This is nothing more that a 'Scriptural Schematic' of the Book of Revelations that Clarence Larkin put together in the early 1900's to give clarity and objectivity to a book that has been confusing to so many. I think it is a great piece of work and any believer could profit from its study and handiwork. It is not something that was crafted to embitter the believer but rather to edify and build the believer up in Christ. It is a shame that you feel the way you do and the effect it has had upon you.

He's very popular among dispensationalists. I'm not embittered it's just that it seems that the obsession with end times prophecy and all the so-called studies about "dispensations" they have become more central to what people consider the faith than during any other time in Christian history.

I wouldn't equate dispensationalism with clarity.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#42
in the greek the word is ekpheugo, it can also mean to flee...in the context of the word he says watch and be prayerful(before). Why couldnt it mean before it comes? i see why it could be interpreted to escape from within but i also do as i said afterward, and accompany it with faith. My faith is the proof of what we cannont see, and so i know that even if we arent able to percieve with our eyes that it means we can escape the entire thing, that my faith proves it does. in the least watchmen (what is your name? My name is Tyler) it proves that in obediance to this command we dont have to go through the tribulation. we might see the beginning of it but because we have been watching and praying we will be able to escape it and see the son of man face to face. Or we might see it coming, but because weve been watchful and prayerful we will escape and see our Lord face to face (stand before him).

Might interest you that no one prior to the 1830s believed in the rapture. It wasn't until John Darby single-handed this brand new interpretation and convinced his Plymouth Brethren to begin preaching this NEW Darby teaching. From there, Scofield caught wind and a few other books were published and before you knew it there were millions of copies of this new teaching being pumped into churches as if it were the gospel truth.

Consider that Jesus himself prayed for ALL of his followers that they NOT BE REMOVED from the world but "delivered" from evil. In other words, escape God's wrath.

There's so much emphasis on enduring trials and tribulation in the bible that you have to be kidding if you think that God will remove his team from the playing field during the tribulation of tribulations.

Plus, Jesus also says that the Father will shorten the time of the tribulation because if He doesn't, then NONE would survive. He's talking about believers. If we are taken out of the game then there are no believers here.

Knowing this, people still come up with doctrinal band-aids and then say, "weeeeeell, those are just non-believers that converted afterwards." There is NO sound biblical interpretation in that leap.

To think that there's good fruit to be had in this doctrine of the rapture because it makes you "ready" is selective and reduces the power of the True call to readiness. So, until the 1830s there was no good and compelling reason to be on the watch for His return until Darby came up with the rapture? Is the fact that God tells us to be ready and that Jesus says that he will return, not good enough?

People have even replaced the spreading of the good news with this new alarmist message about the world's destruction and so if you want to get a ticket to ride aboard the Evangelical Rapture theology Airlines, you best believe in the Lord before you get stuck here. Some even say you have to believe in the Rapture in order to catch a ticket! Like, God will say, "well, you believe in me and you await my return with diligence but you don't believe in Darby's rapture and so you must stay here to endure some more until you repent of your disassociation with Darby."

New Christian message? Escape tribulation. :confused:

And what's the point of taking care of the planet and all this stuff if we're just going to catch a ticket out of here and watch the so-called "evil people" get torched?

I mean, really. Is this how we are going to paint a picture of our God to the world?

100 million Orthodox were martyred in the past hundred years. To give our very life for our friends and with our blood (martyr pretty much is synonymous with the word, testimony) we testify about the One True God, Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Imagine if the Orthodox believed in the "rapture". If millions of your brothers and sisters were being murdered, men, women and children for their religious beliefs by an atheist regime you might just wonder if it wasn't the end times. Then, as you're watching your children get shot in the head and your wife being handed over to the soldiers, maybe then you can just look up at the sky and be like, "any minute now, God's gonna come and lift me up out of here and I'll escape all this." And then they hoist you up onto a chair and are about to hang you and again, "any minute now". So seven years pass and now a new generation comes along and they're familiar with all the tragedies and the rapture and still, nothing. They're still being butchered. Is this rapture doctrine really helping them to be more ready or giving them hope in something which God is calling them to suffer through well that the world might see Him.

Darby comes along and the whole focus shifts into some escapist theology that sees itself as upper class - above having to go through that yucky and inconvenient tribulation.

 
D

DieuMerci

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#43
well i didnt know anything about the rapture when i read that scripture Ryan, and i belived i would escape the trib because i obeyed and obey christs command there before i had heard of a rapture. the only thing that got me through the other scripture that are used for this doctrine is that verse i posted. It wasn't through the teaching of these men that has been handed down that i came to faith that i would escape the tribulation it was from reading the bible. im not jumping on the boat here(or airline). i mearly saw that my Lord gave me intructions of how to get aboard before i knew anything about it. im not saying all the other scriptures are reffering to the escape christ is talking about either, but im not saying that they arent, but in reading and hearing both views on it i generally accept the pre trib doctrines. Be aware though ryan that i am also in the proccess of testing all day long everything ive been told, that hasnt already been proven. So if you have the Word of God, then tell us. I rejoice with the truth, and 'how agreeable is the truth!' I cant be partial to you Ryan i dont treat you differently then i do messianic Jews, or Baptists, etc.

OFF TOPIC: 'Kiss the Son' and not the 'calf-idols'.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#44
OFF TOPIC: 'Kiss the Son' and not the 'calf-idols'.
Here's the thread on icons. Mahogany Snail and I had a pretty lively convo about this topic a few months ago.

If you sincerely would like to know why it is we do as we do so you won't keep falsely accusing people of idolatry, check out the link and read the posts. Then maybe you can explain to me how despite the thread, I'm an idolater.

http://christianchat.com/showthread.php?t=4823&highlight=icons

Thank you for dealing with me as you would the Messianic Jews or the Baptists. :p (not sure what that means)


God bless
 
J

Jezreel

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#45
I feel that God intended for us to not know the exact time of his coming so he will come as a thief in the night. We can know the seasons but not the day nor the hour, especially since there are different time zones all over the earth.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#46
Darby comes along and the whole focus shifts into some escapist theology that sees itself as upper class - above having to go through that yucky and inconvenient tribulation.
Yes it is a fairly absurd concept when you think about it.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#47
I feel that God intended for us to not know the exact time of his coming so he will come as a thief in the night. We can know the seasons but not the day nor the hour, especially since there are different time zones all over the earth.
However scripture does tell us very plainly that the return of Christ is after the Tribulation, not before it.
 
Sep 2, 2009
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#48


The picture you provided is HIGHLY inaccurate. If you are following this belief, you have much more to learn and understand. Do not take what I am say personal because I listened and studied as much as a person could for years off and on and I am fed up with the GROSS misleading that has gone on over the book of Revelation.

MOST of the worlds religious leaders and television evangelists and teachers have taught the wrong things for so long that no one has dared to challenge them. Instead, what people do is challenge subjects, not prophecy, and do not challenge them. I have no problem challenging any of the them.

To prove my point: did you know that the war that Ezekiel talks about happens after the 1000 year reign of Christ and does not happen before Jesus returns? Did you know that there is no seven year tribulaiton because is is going on now? Did you know that Satan has already fallen from heaven and did so before Jesus came? Do you know what the Antichrist really is and the difference between it and the Man of Sin?

I expect not. There is no pre-trib rapture because the tribulation started over 2000 years ago. The people using Rev 3:10 use it incorrectly. But what else is new?

By definition
: Rapture has always referred to the time when Jesus returns, where one will be taken and the other left. Old news there. However, your picture does not mention the other two that happen when he returns, why is that if it is so accurate?

Your picture also does not show the two that happen after the millennium. Why is that if it is so accurate?

So, by definition, what does Rapture mean? It means the resurrection of the soul to the body, bringing back to life a once existing person, an event that has been falsely represented as happening only once when Jesus returns. But the bible clearly says there are seven resurrections.

If i care to use the term rapture to represent those seven, who are you to argue against me since you can't even provide a true and correct picture of the events that are going to happen in the first place? End definition.

I said not to take this personally because you are among the millions or billions who have been lead down the wrong path as to what is really going to happen. It's not your fault what you hear, it's only your fault what you believe.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#49
I posted that picture because I think most of us are familiar with a thousand of these charts that attempt to dice and slice dispensations and time frames when the person that comes up with the pictorial chart believes those things to happen. No two charts are the same and they are often based on some fancy bible footwork.

Rapture is a term coined in the 1830s. First time it ever saw print wasn't even until the 19th century. Rapture is a brand spanking new term and not at all a term that was familiar to Christianity until the last century. Just have to clear that up.
 
S

sword

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#50
Saying that the rapture will happen before tha tribulation is promoting a light, commercial and too comfortable gospel. Jesus said we would have affliction and also said "He who endures till the end will be saved". Besides the apostle Paul clearly wrote that the rapture will happen AFTER the manifestation of the antichrist:

2 Thessalonians 2

1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
 
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sword

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#51
The book of revelations is so full of symbols that even Martin Luther doubted its inspiration:
Preface to the Revelation of John by Martin Luther (1522)

About this book of the Revelation of John, I leave everyone free to hold his own opinions. I would not have anyone bound to my opinion or judgment. I say what I feel. I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic.

First and foremost, the apostles do not deal with visions, but prophesy in clear and plain words, as do Peter and Paul, and Christ in the gospel. For it befits the apostolic office to speak clearly of Christ and his deeds, without images and visions. Moreover there is no prophet in the Old Testament, to say nothing of the New, who deals so exclusively with visions and images. For myself, I think it approximates the Fourth Book of Esdras; 8 I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#52
Saying that the rapture will happen before tha tribulation is promoting a light, commercial and too comfortable gospel. Jesus said we would have affliction and also said "He who endures till the end will be saved". Besides the apostle Paul clearly wrote that the rapture will happen AFTER the manifestation of the antichrist:

2 Thessalonians 2

1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
This is 100% absolutely true, the sad thing is they will never see it, many pretribbers whole reason for being christian is because they think they will escape the tribulation ,. If you take that from them they have no reason to serve God, and reality they are not serving Him in the first place.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#53
The book of revelations is so full of symbols that even Martin Luther doubted its inspiration:
Preface to the Revelation of John by Martin Luther (1522)

About this book of the Revelation of John, I leave everyone free to hold his own opinions. I would not have anyone bound to my opinion or judgment. I say what I feel. I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic.

First and foremost, the apostles do not deal with visions, but prophesy in clear and plain words, as do Peter and Paul, and Christ in the gospel. For it befits the apostolic office to speak clearly of Christ and his deeds, without images and visions. Moreover there is no prophet in the Old Testament, to say nothing of the New, who deals so exclusively with visions and images. For myself, I think it approximates the Fourth Book of Esdras; 8 I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it.
Martin Luther (Reformation dood for those that don't know) said and believed some wild stuff. He wanted to get rid of the book of James, Hebrews and a few others. I'm blanking here. But yeah, I read this quickly and thought that you had said it. I was like, "this guy sounds just like Martin Luther.... weird. I should go find that Martin Luther quote..." And then I snap out of it and look over your post again and I'm like - doh.

sorry for the play by play of my reaction to your post. It's going to be that kind of day.

I even think that for about a hundred years, the Lutherans didn't even include those books in their readings/bibles at Church. James, Hebrews, Revelations... and I'm missing one. 1 John or something. No. Maybe. I don't know. Anyway. Yeah. Luther.

You're not advocating we should take Luther's position in regards to the book of Revelation are you? (you should clarify a thing like that before droves of people start re-forming "their bibles".
 
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sword

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#54
it took about 300 years of debate for the revelation book to be accepted as part of the biblical cannon. Was it write to accept it? Time will tell.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#55
here are the evevnts according to scripture believe the scriptures or what you have been taught
Re 19:6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.Re 19:7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.Re 19:8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


then here by the words used and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, this verse is clearly talking only about the tribulation saints or to say those that went through the tribulation only. if we can establish this then watch what the word of God says


Re 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.Re 20:5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.Re 20:6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but


now a few notes from these verses the ones to live and reign with Him for the thousand years (millennium) are the ones that lived in the great tribulation period. and we establish this from verse 4 neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


the first resurrection is only for the tribulation saints we establish by verse 6 they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. who will reign with Him for the thousand years? those that didn't take on the mark of the beast. this is the first resurrection also . but now note in in verse 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. if the post trib guys state verily boldly, that there is only one resurrection or one more coming of the Lord then I have to ask here who are the rest of the dead that are raised a thousand years after the first resurrection???? this is in a time line here event after event

Re 20:7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Re 20:11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.Re 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.Re 20:13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.Re 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.Re 20:15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
so let me step any who will haves eyes to see , The Church/ bride is already with their white robes which we don't get before we go to heaven Before the first resurrection which consist of trib. saints/ the wedding party. how did they get ready before the first resurrection? the rapture maybe? the we have the rest of the dead that is not raised until after the thousand year reign so my question if post tribbers have the facts that all will be raised at one time shortly after the day of the Lord who are the rest of the dead that are raised only after the first resurrection and after the thousand year reign of Christ , the rest of the dead is not the lost souls because the rest of the dead will be judged by the book of life.


one more thought on this, God has just showed me as I read these scriptures.


Re 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
If Jesus taught the disciples that the raising of the Church and the end time judgement was the same then can some post tribber please explain this .

Mt 19:27Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?Mt 19:28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

two points here , peter was told that the twelve disciples would sit on the twelve thrones Judging Israel, so if there is not a pre-trib rapture of the new testament Church how are the twelve disciples already on the twelve thrones before the first resurrection??? then the second is that we can establish that the first resurrection is dealing with the tribulation saints those that refuse to take on the mark of the beast, then look at where they are at , before the twelve thrones of Israel meaning that the ones who's robes are washed during the great tribulations are Jews only!!! praise the Lord for revelation of scriptures

 
Jan 31, 2009
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#56
hey, let's just discredit the whole bible then we can live the way we want to and believe what we want to, it has been said that cause God said it and I believe that makes it so , it ain't got nothing to do with if I believe it , it is so Because God said it. look at what alot of you are doing this part of the Bible is wrong because it goes against what you all believe

Ro 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.Ro 1:22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,Ro 1:23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.



God bless each and everyone
 
J

Jezreel

Guest
#57
it took about 300 years of debate for the revelation book to be accepted as part of the biblical cannon. Was it write to accept it? Time will tell.
There are a two other books that were rejected by those so called church fathers that I believe is the word of God. Religeous leaders would argue and not accept it but they have to believe what they are told to believe.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#58
it took about 300 years of debate for the revelation book to be accepted as part of the biblical cannon. Was it write to accept it? Time will tell.
The canon was decided by the same sort of council that decided that we no longer have to get circumcised but are required only to have a circumcision of the heart.

The Holy Spirit has testified. Time has already told.

Are you Lutheran or?
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#59
There are a two other books that were rejected by those so called church fathers that I believe is the word of God. Religeous leaders would argue and not accept it but they have to believe what they are told to believe.

What two books do the Jezreelians want to add to the canon?
 
J

Jezreel

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#60
I don't want to go into that right now as I am still reading through one that is quoted in Jude and Peter, having the same scriptures. I feel that when we want to be lead into all truth, the Lord will do that. Besides that, there are too many here on this site that have trouble believing in the most simple things of the word of God than causing more confusion than is necessary. Keeping things simple and I really don't like harsh debates and argument.
 
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