-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
I hate to break up the party here, but the Antichrist is not the man of sin. The man of sin is Satan. There is a difference between them. The spirit of the Antichrist will be thrown into the bottomless pit when Jesus returns never to be released again. On the other hand, Satan will be released again after the millennium so that he can work a number on the rulers of the earth again. Rev 20:7 & 8
Satan is the one who will sit on the throne proclaiming to be God. The Antichrist is just a spirit that works in peoples minds and hearts deceiving them.
Satan will proclaim himself to be God after the 3rd & 4th resurrection stage, before the 5th resurrection stage. People will think God has returned to earth and also believe that it is Jesus too because this is one of the tricks being done NOW. Then sometime after his hour Jesus will return while we are still in the clouds. There he will kill all the remaining unbelievers and send Satan to "jail" (bottomless pit) for 1000 years. Then he and those who died and were not chosen for the millennium will be resurrected (6th resurrection) to live for a time not given and they will prepare for the final battle spoken of by Ezekiel in chapter 38 & 39.
Then "GOD" will kill them this time, not Jesus, and they will remain until the Day of Judgment, (7th resurrection) which is about 4500 years into the future.
Jesus was temped three times and so was Peter because man will be offered salvation three times. NOW, after the millennium, and on the Day of Judgment.
Guess you can see why I don't think much of the picture. Read your bible, it's all in there.
Satan is the one who will sit on the throne proclaiming to be God. The Antichrist is just a spirit that works in peoples minds and hearts deceiving them.
Satan will proclaim himself to be God after the 3rd & 4th resurrection stage, before the 5th resurrection stage. People will think God has returned to earth and also believe that it is Jesus too because this is one of the tricks being done NOW. Then sometime after his hour Jesus will return while we are still in the clouds. There he will kill all the remaining unbelievers and send Satan to "jail" (bottomless pit) for 1000 years. Then he and those who died and were not chosen for the millennium will be resurrected (6th resurrection) to live for a time not given and they will prepare for the final battle spoken of by Ezekiel in chapter 38 & 39.
Then "GOD" will kill them this time, not Jesus, and they will remain until the Day of Judgment, (7th resurrection) which is about 4500 years into the future.
Jesus was temped three times and so was Peter because man will be offered salvation three times. NOW, after the millennium, and on the Day of Judgment.
Guess you can see why I don't think much of the picture. Read your bible, it's all in there.
J
I totally understand and feel what you are saying agrees with my spirit. People are looking in the flesh to see this man appearand it is a waste of time. The temple of God is the body of Christ and when the Poop (pope) set himself up over the believers as instead of Christ, that was the mystery of iniquity.
S
Some brothers think the antichrist could be alive and ready to show himself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVkusRzq4Xo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVkusRzq4Xo
Here are several items of proof that the doctrine was taught and accepted WELL BEFORE the 1800's:
1. Dr. John Gill in 1748, a Baptist minister, called the "catching away" the rapture. Here is a quote from his commentary:
"The Apostle, having something new and extraordinary to deliver concerning the coming of Christ, the first resurrection of the saints, or the change of the living saints, and the Rapture both of the raised, and the living in the clouds to meet Christ in the air expresses itself in this manner."
2. Peter Jerieu in 1687:
"The saints shall reign with Christ a thousand years...But to me it seems very evident that this reign shall begin with some miraculous appearance of our Lord in His glory. After which He shall go back to heaven...There is a first coming of Christ to establish His Kingdom upon Earth, shall not be in that manner, with the voice of an archangel, and in great magnificence in glory? Who can prove that, at the first coming of Christ, He shall not rise some of the dead? As St. John seems expressly to have foretold?"
3. Ephream the Syrian in 373AD:
"All the Saints and the elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion that overwhelms the world because of our sins..."
4. The vision of the Shepherd of Hermes in 140AD:
"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord of his mighty deed, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with you heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless..."
This was written only 50 years after John wrote the book of Revelation. Don't let people argue that its a recent phenomenon without any history in the early church.
1. Dr. John Gill in 1748, a Baptist minister, called the "catching away" the rapture. Here is a quote from his commentary:
"The Apostle, having something new and extraordinary to deliver concerning the coming of Christ, the first resurrection of the saints, or the change of the living saints, and the Rapture both of the raised, and the living in the clouds to meet Christ in the air expresses itself in this manner."
2. Peter Jerieu in 1687:
"The saints shall reign with Christ a thousand years...But to me it seems very evident that this reign shall begin with some miraculous appearance of our Lord in His glory. After which He shall go back to heaven...There is a first coming of Christ to establish His Kingdom upon Earth, shall not be in that manner, with the voice of an archangel, and in great magnificence in glory? Who can prove that, at the first coming of Christ, He shall not rise some of the dead? As St. John seems expressly to have foretold?"
3. Ephream the Syrian in 373AD:
"All the Saints and the elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion that overwhelms the world because of our sins..."
4. The vision of the Shepherd of Hermes in 140AD:
"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord of his mighty deed, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with you heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless..."
This was written only 50 years after John wrote the book of Revelation. Don't let people argue that its a recent phenomenon without any history in the early church.
If true, it's not surprising to see the hints of pre-trib rapture ideas existing as far back as the time of the early church. But the pre-tribulation believers, if there were any, were in the minority - the far majority of early church writings and authors particularly the more notable ones such as the Didache, Irenaeus etc, are all post-trib.
So a statement such as "proof that the doctrine was taught and accepted WELL BEFORE the 1800's" is quite wrong. Pre-trib belief may have existed in some form before 1750's but was not "taught and accepted" as the norm until our modern day, yes the 1800's and 1900's.
These early church writings you present do not prove the pre-trib rapture view as is taught today. I'll go through them now:\
Re: Peter Jerieu
It refers to some being raised from the dead right before the 1000 year reign of Christ. It hardly supports any claim that the living saints are raptured to the sky before the tribulation begins.
Re: shepherd of hermas
This doesn't support a pre-trib rapture. This is because it says "Go, therefore, and tell the elect ..." clearly they are still on the earth, as the letter is still addressed to them to "go and tell" as if they are still on earth. Being kept safe from tribulation does not necessarily mean rapture. God's people may be kept safe just as they were in the old testament when the plagues came and the angel of death passed over the houses of Israel. So shepherd of hermas gives no support to a pre-trib view, and rather supports the post-trib view.
re: John Gill
While John Gill was a premillennialist he did not believe in the pre-trib rapture. Suggest you do a bit more study on his theology.
re: Ephream the Syrian
First of all the author himself was not a pre-tribber.
A sample of some of this other writings is clearly post-trib:
from (Discourse On the Passion of the Saviour)
Always meditating thus,
shedding tears every day,
giving thanks to the Master
for the sufferings
that he suffered for you,
so that in the day
of his Coming
your tears may become
your boast and exaltation
before the judgement seat.
His writing you quote seems to refer to being raptured at the last trumpet before the judgement and day of the Lord. [We have to be careful not to confuse a pre-tribulation rapture before the tribulation, with a rapture occurring before the immediate return of the Lord and the judgement.] This writing supports more of a mid or post-trib view not a pre-trib view. Although the language such as "taken to the Lord" seems to support a pre-trib view, further study reveals that the phrase "taken to the Lord" is an old expression referring to doing the highest acts of virtue which can be done on earth. Doing penance to be counted worthy of escape I think. Escape not meaning to be raptured, but to be kept safe.
In short, being counted worthy to be kept safe and preserved from tribulation is found in early church writings, even Christ said that:
Luk 21:36Watchyetherefore,andprayalways,thatyemaybeaccounted worthytoescapeallthese thingsthat shallcome to pass,andtostandbeforetheSonofman.
But a modern day pre-trib belief of God rapturing people to the sky before Christ returns - is not found anywhere in early church writings or the bible.
The plain and simple reading of Jesus's words is that the elect, the saints, are gathered to the Lord after the tribulation , not before (Matthew 24:29-31).
So a statement such as "proof that the doctrine was taught and accepted WELL BEFORE the 1800's" is quite wrong. Pre-trib belief may have existed in some form before 1750's but was not "taught and accepted" as the norm until our modern day, yes the 1800's and 1900's.
These early church writings you present do not prove the pre-trib rapture view as is taught today. I'll go through them now:\
Re: Peter Jerieu
It refers to some being raised from the dead right before the 1000 year reign of Christ. It hardly supports any claim that the living saints are raptured to the sky before the tribulation begins.
Re: shepherd of hermas
This doesn't support a pre-trib rapture. This is because it says "Go, therefore, and tell the elect ..." clearly they are still on the earth, as the letter is still addressed to them to "go and tell" as if they are still on earth. Being kept safe from tribulation does not necessarily mean rapture. God's people may be kept safe just as they were in the old testament when the plagues came and the angel of death passed over the houses of Israel. So shepherd of hermas gives no support to a pre-trib view, and rather supports the post-trib view.
re: John Gill
While John Gill was a premillennialist he did not believe in the pre-trib rapture. Suggest you do a bit more study on his theology.
re: Ephream the Syrian
First of all the author himself was not a pre-tribber.
A sample of some of this other writings is clearly post-trib:
from (Discourse On the Passion of the Saviour)
Always meditating thus,
shedding tears every day,
giving thanks to the Master
for the sufferings
that he suffered for you,
so that in the day
of his Coming
your tears may become
your boast and exaltation
before the judgement seat.
His writing you quote seems to refer to being raptured at the last trumpet before the judgement and day of the Lord. [We have to be careful not to confuse a pre-tribulation rapture before the tribulation, with a rapture occurring before the immediate return of the Lord and the judgement.] This writing supports more of a mid or post-trib view not a pre-trib view. Although the language such as "taken to the Lord" seems to support a pre-trib view, further study reveals that the phrase "taken to the Lord" is an old expression referring to doing the highest acts of virtue which can be done on earth. Doing penance to be counted worthy of escape I think. Escape not meaning to be raptured, but to be kept safe.
In short, being counted worthy to be kept safe and preserved from tribulation is found in early church writings, even Christ said that:
Luk 21:36Watchyetherefore,andprayalways,thatyemaybeaccounted worthytoescapeallthese thingsthat shallcome to pass,andtostandbeforetheSonofman.
But a modern day pre-trib belief of God rapturing people to the sky before Christ returns - is not found anywhere in early church writings or the bible.
The plain and simple reading of Jesus's words is that the elect, the saints, are gathered to the Lord after the tribulation , not before (Matthew 24:29-31).
Last edited:
The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: A new idea?
If you listen to the skeptics, the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church is practically a brand new idea. According to many, the doctrine wasn't even hinted at prior to 1830. Is that accurate?
As you can imagine, I do a lot of reading, especially in regard to the alleged origins of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture doctrine, primarily because I've always found it astounding anyone could allege something as clear in Scripture as the Pre-Tribulational Rapture is wasn't spoken of prior to 1830.
I was pleasantly surprised recently to learn one of the early Church fathers, Clement, may have written quite extensively on the principles of the topic in an epistle to the Corinthians he drafted in either 68 or 97 AD - less than 70 years after Christ's death on the cross - a considerable period of time before 1830.
All of the excerpts I'm about to include of Clement's writings can be found at a website documenting the writings of the Early Church Fathers. In Clement's First Epistle to the Corinthians he wrote, as can be found on this page of the website, the following:
Chapter IX - Examples of the Saints.
Wherefore, let us yield obedience to His excellent and glorious will; and imploring His mercy and loving-kindness, while we forsake all fruitless labours, and strife, and envy, which leads to death, let us turn and have recourse to His compassions. Let us stedfastly contemplate those who have perfectly ministered to His excellent glory. Let us take (for instance) Enoch, who, being found righteous in obedience, was translated, and death was never known to happen to him. Noah, being found faithful, preached regeneration to the world through his ministry; and the Lord saved by him the animals which, with one accord, entered into the ark.
Clement refers to Enoch who was raptured without seeing death, as seen in Genesis 5:24: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Secondly, Clement mentions Noah - a man Clement calls faithful who Scripture teaches us was spared God's judgment during the Great Flood because he walked with God and was righteous in God's eyes, as seen in Genesis 6:8-9: But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Continuing with Clement's writings:
Chapter XI - Continuation. Lot.
On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodore when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him, but gives up such as depart from Him to punishment and torture. For Lot's wife, who went forth with him, being of a different mind from himself and not continuing in agreement with him [as to the command which had been given them], was made an example of, so as to be a pillar of salt unto this day. This was done that all might know that those who are of a double mind, and who distrust the power of God, bring down judgment on themselves and become a sign to all succeeding generations.
Much as Clement referred to Enoch and Noah, Clement writes next about Lot, another man who was saved from God's judgment as a direct result of his godliness, particularly mentioning the fact that God does not forsake those that hope in Him!
Interestingly enough, Clement also addresses Lot's wife, particularly noting she was of a different mindset than Lot, the end result of which left her standing in the desert as a pillar of salt. Clement tells us God made Lot's wife an example, demonstrating how those of a double mind bring God's judgment down on themselves by distrusting the power of God!
In spite of Scripture indicating the Church isn't appointed to wrath, there are many Christians today who, in a fashion similar to Lot's wife, fearfully look over their shoulders while stating we may need to begin preparing ourselves mentally and spiritually to enter the Tribulation Period - a time the Apostle John refers to as the great day of His [the Lord's] wrath in Revelation 6:17.
If the Church isn't appointed to wrath, and it isn't as seen in 1st Thessalonians 5:9, why do some Christians keep trying to place the Church inside the Tribulation Period? On one hand, these Christians profess having faith in Christ yet, on the other hand, indicate we shouldn't depend on Him delivering the Church from having to suffer in the Tribulation Period via a Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church that is clearly in Scripture - a classic example of a double mind where placing trust in the power of God is concerned!
As you can imagine, I couldn't help but smile upon reading Clement's comments because they're precisely in keeping with what I say all the time concerning the many naysayers in the world today who mock those who trust in the power of God and their belief in an overwhelming amount of Scriptural evidence that the Lord Jesus Christ is going to protect His Church by rapturing it before the onset of the Tribulation Period!
Those who mock the faithful need to consider Clement's words and the story of Lot's wife very carefully. They likewise need to read the eleventh chapter of Hebrews in its entirety, especially the portion which deals with Enoch's translation mentioned earlier. Why? Because it's demonstrative of why those who are going to be raptured at the Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church will be kept from the hour of temptation - because of their FAITH in Jesus Christ!
Hebrews 11:5: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death, Christians! By FAITH!!!
Continuing with Clement's writings:
Chapter XIX - Imitating These Examples, Let Us Seek After Peace.
Thus the humility and godly submission of so great and illustrious men have rendered not only us, but also all the generations before us, better; even as many as have received His oracles in fear and truth. Wherefore, having so many great and glorious examples set before us, let us turn again to the practice of that peace which from the beginning was the mark set before us; and let us look stedfastly to the Father and Creator of the universe, and cleave to His mighty and surpassingly great gifts and benefactions, of peace. Let us contemplate Him with our understanding, and look with the eyes of our soul to His long-suffering will. Let us reflect how free from wrath He is towards all His creation.
Are we to believe Christ, who Clement writes is free from wrath toward all His creation, is going to appoint His beloved Church to suffer at His own hand during the great day of His wrath? Scripture answers that question.
1st Thessalonians 5:9: For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Continuing with Clement's writings:
Chapter XXII - These Exhortations are Confirmed by the Christian Faith, Which Proclaims the Misery of Sinful Conduct.
Now the faith which is in Christ confirms all these admonitions. For He Himself by the Holy Ghost thus addresses us: "Come, ye children, hearken unto Me; I will teach you the fear of the Lord. What man is he that desireth life, and loveth to see good days? Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile. Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it. The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and His ears are [open] unto their prayers. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth. The righteous cried, and the Lord heard him, and delivered him out of all his troubles. Many are the stripes [appointed for] the wicked; but mercy shall compass those about who hope in the Lord."
The Lord looks upon His own, hears them when they cry out to Him, and delivers them out of their troubles! Wrath, the many stripes Clement refers to in the passage, is appointed to the wicked, not the righteous! Mercy encompasses those who hope in the Lord!
Continuing with Clement's writings:
Chapter XXIII - Be Humble, and Believe that Christ Will Come Again.
The all-merciful and beneficent Father has bowels [of compassion] towards those that fear Him, and kindly and lovingly bestows His favours upon those who come to Him with a simple mind. Wherefore let us not be double-minded; neither let our soul be lifted up on account of His exceedingly great and glorious gifts. Far from us be that which is written, "Wretched are they who are of a double mind, and of a doubting heart; who say, These things we have heard even in the times of our fathers; but, behold, we have grown old, and none of them has happened unto us. Ye foolish ones! compare yourselves to a tree: take [for instance] the vine. First of all, it sheds its leaves, then it buds, next it puts forth leaves, and then it flowers; after that comes the sour grape, and then follows the ripened fruit. Ye perceive how in a little time the fruit of a tree comes to maturity. Of a truth, soon and suddenly shall His will be accomplished, as the Scripture also bears witness, saying, "Speedily will He come, and will not tarry; " and, "The Lord shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Holy One, for whom ye look."
The Father is compassionate toward His own. Does this even have to be said? As Clement said, far be it from us that we be wretched like those who are of a double mind and a doubting heart where the mercies of the Lord are concerned! Let us come before the Lord with the simple mind of a child, filled with abundant faith and hope in His power to deliver us from darkness into light!
Continuing with Clement's writings:
Chapter XXVIII - God Sees All Things: Therefore Let Us Avoid Transgression.
Since then all things are seen and heard [by God], let us fear Him, and forsake those wicked works which proceed from evil desires; so that, through His mercy, we may be protected from the judgments to come. For whither can any of us flee from His mighty hand? Or what world will receive any of those who run away from Him? For the Scripture saith in a certain place, "Whither shall I go, and where shall I be hid from Thy presence? If I ascend into heaven, Thou art there; if I go away even to the uttermost parts of the earth, there is Thy right hand; if I make my bed in the abyss, there is Thy Spirit."Whither, then, shall any one go, or where shall he escape from Him who comprehends all things?
Clement certainly didn't seem to see the Church squaring off with the Antichrist in the Tribulation Period. Long before John Edward Darby supposedly cooked up the Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church, Clement was seeing a way for the Church to be protected from the judgments to come through a fearful respect of God and righteous living. How could Clement have thought that so long before 1830? Guess, naysayers!
The following section of Clement's writings is taken out of order as I want to close with it:
Chapter XLV - It is the Part of the Wicked to Vex the Righteous.
Ye are fond of contention, brethren, and full of zeal about things which do not pertain to salvation. Look carefully into the Scriptures, which are the true utterances of the Holy Spirit. Observe that nothing of an unjust or counterfeit character is written in them. There you will not find that the righteous were cast off by men who themselves were holy. The righteous were indeed persecuted, but only by the wicked. They were cast into prison, but only by the unholy; they were stoned, but only by transgressors; they were slain, but only by the accursed, and such as had conceived an unrighteous envy against them. Exposed to such sufferings, they endured them gloriously. For what shall we say, brethren? Was Daniel cast into the den of lions by such as feared God? Were Ananias, and Azarias, and Mishael shut up in a furnace of fire by those who observed the great and glorious worship of the Most High? Far from us be such a thought! Who, then, were they that did such things? The hateful, and those full of all wickedness, were roused to such a pitch of fury, that they inflicted torture on those who served God with a holy and blameless purpose [of heart], not knowing that the Most High is the Defender and Protector of all such as with a pure conscience venerate His all-excellent name; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. But they who with confidence endured these things are now heirs of glory and honour, and have been exalted and made illustrious by God in their memorial for ever and ever. Amen.
There are many who want to argue and fight about every manner of doctrine. As Clement put it aptly, we should look carefully into the Scriptures in order to confirm and preserve our faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord as it's through Scripture, not through the wisdom of men, that we find the true utterances of the Holy Spirit!
Those who choose to believe the Church is going to join the unrepentant world in suffering in the Tribulation Period need to reflect, as Clement did, on how the Church has suffered tribulation to this point.
There are two totally different types of tribulation we need to understand as Christians. The first type of tribulation comes to the Church by way of man's wickedness. The second kind of Tribulation is the kind those dwelling inside the Tribulation Period will have to endure. They are not one and the same!
Many today whose doctrines tell us the Church is going to be thrown into the Tribulation Period with the wicked tend to point to tribulations the Church has suffered at the hands of wicked mankind in the past as an example of Christ's willingness to let His Bride suffer at His own hand in the Tribulation Period that will come to test the whole earth. Ridiculous! It's like comparing a peach to a bowling ball!
As Clement put it, the Church has been persecuted, but only by the wicked. Members of the Church have been (and still are being) cast into prison, but only by the unholy! Members of the Church have been stoned, but only by transgressors! Members of the Church have been slain, but only by the accursed! Daniel wasn't cast into the lion's den by the Lord or anyone who feared the Lord. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego weren't placed in the fiery furnace by God, but by the wicked.
Clement credited the hateful and those full of wickedness for inflicting torture on those who served God with a holy and blameless purpose of heart in his day. He further indicated the wicked who did so failed to understand something about God Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego understood about Him - that He was the Defender and Protector of all those who trust in Him with a pure conscience.
Would the Lord have delivered Daniel from the lion's den if he'd had no faith in Him? Would the flames and smoke of the fiery furnace have stood back in the presence of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego if they'd had no faith in the Lord's ability to deliver them from it? I doubt it, which is precisely why those who are placing their trust in Jesus Christ to gather them to His side in a Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church are far more in touch with the God of the Bible than those who preach the Church is going to have to suffer alongside the wicked in the Tribulation Period.
It's interesting to me Clement spoke of Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the manner he did as a Post-Tribulational Rapture believer would point to those incidents as proof the Church is going to go through the Tribulation Period, but be protected.
If the faithful Church was going to have to endure the horrors of the Tribulation Period, there couldn't have been any finer examples than Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, whose stories of boldly overcoming tribulation are recorded in Daniel, chapters 6 and 3 respectively, right?
If the Church is going to have to suffer in the Tribulation Period as those holding a Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath, or Post-Tribulational Rapture doctrine would suggest, why did Christ Himself point to two men I spoke of earlier in the commentary, Noah and Lot, who were completely delivered from God's judgment, when speaking of the end times, as recorded in Luke 17:26-30?
I believe Clement understood there was going to be a Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church well ahead of John Darby allegedly dreaming the idea up in 1830. If so, it's not such a new idea after all, is it?
If you listen to the skeptics, the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church is practically a brand new idea. According to many, the doctrine wasn't even hinted at prior to 1830. Is that accurate?
As you can imagine, I do a lot of reading, especially in regard to the alleged origins of the Pre-Tribulational Rapture doctrine, primarily because I've always found it astounding anyone could allege something as clear in Scripture as the Pre-Tribulational Rapture is wasn't spoken of prior to 1830.
I was pleasantly surprised recently to learn one of the early Church fathers, Clement, may have written quite extensively on the principles of the topic in an epistle to the Corinthians he drafted in either 68 or 97 AD - less than 70 years after Christ's death on the cross - a considerable period of time before 1830.
All of the excerpts I'm about to include of Clement's writings can be found at a website documenting the writings of the Early Church Fathers. In Clement's First Epistle to the Corinthians he wrote, as can be found on this page of the website, the following:
Chapter IX - Examples of the Saints.
Wherefore, let us yield obedience to His excellent and glorious will; and imploring His mercy and loving-kindness, while we forsake all fruitless labours, and strife, and envy, which leads to death, let us turn and have recourse to His compassions. Let us stedfastly contemplate those who have perfectly ministered to His excellent glory. Let us take (for instance) Enoch, who, being found righteous in obedience, was translated, and death was never known to happen to him. Noah, being found faithful, preached regeneration to the world through his ministry; and the Lord saved by him the animals which, with one accord, entered into the ark.
Clement refers to Enoch who was raptured without seeing death, as seen in Genesis 5:24: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Secondly, Clement mentions Noah - a man Clement calls faithful who Scripture teaches us was spared God's judgment during the Great Flood because he walked with God and was righteous in God's eyes, as seen in Genesis 6:8-9: But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Continuing with Clement's writings:
Chapter XI - Continuation. Lot.
On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodore when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him, but gives up such as depart from Him to punishment and torture. For Lot's wife, who went forth with him, being of a different mind from himself and not continuing in agreement with him [as to the command which had been given them], was made an example of, so as to be a pillar of salt unto this day. This was done that all might know that those who are of a double mind, and who distrust the power of God, bring down judgment on themselves and become a sign to all succeeding generations.
Much as Clement referred to Enoch and Noah, Clement writes next about Lot, another man who was saved from God's judgment as a direct result of his godliness, particularly mentioning the fact that God does not forsake those that hope in Him!
Interestingly enough, Clement also addresses Lot's wife, particularly noting she was of a different mindset than Lot, the end result of which left her standing in the desert as a pillar of salt. Clement tells us God made Lot's wife an example, demonstrating how those of a double mind bring God's judgment down on themselves by distrusting the power of God!
In spite of Scripture indicating the Church isn't appointed to wrath, there are many Christians today who, in a fashion similar to Lot's wife, fearfully look over their shoulders while stating we may need to begin preparing ourselves mentally and spiritually to enter the Tribulation Period - a time the Apostle John refers to as the great day of His [the Lord's] wrath in Revelation 6:17.
If the Church isn't appointed to wrath, and it isn't as seen in 1st Thessalonians 5:9, why do some Christians keep trying to place the Church inside the Tribulation Period? On one hand, these Christians profess having faith in Christ yet, on the other hand, indicate we shouldn't depend on Him delivering the Church from having to suffer in the Tribulation Period via a Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church that is clearly in Scripture - a classic example of a double mind where placing trust in the power of God is concerned!
As you can imagine, I couldn't help but smile upon reading Clement's comments because they're precisely in keeping with what I say all the time concerning the many naysayers in the world today who mock those who trust in the power of God and their belief in an overwhelming amount of Scriptural evidence that the Lord Jesus Christ is going to protect His Church by rapturing it before the onset of the Tribulation Period!
Those who mock the faithful need to consider Clement's words and the story of Lot's wife very carefully. They likewise need to read the eleventh chapter of Hebrews in its entirety, especially the portion which deals with Enoch's translation mentioned earlier. Why? Because it's demonstrative of why those who are going to be raptured at the Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church will be kept from the hour of temptation - because of their FAITH in Jesus Christ!
Hebrews 11:5: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death, Christians! By FAITH!!!
Continuing with Clement's writings:
Chapter XIX - Imitating These Examples, Let Us Seek After Peace.
Thus the humility and godly submission of so great and illustrious men have rendered not only us, but also all the generations before us, better; even as many as have received His oracles in fear and truth. Wherefore, having so many great and glorious examples set before us, let us turn again to the practice of that peace which from the beginning was the mark set before us; and let us look stedfastly to the Father and Creator of the universe, and cleave to His mighty and surpassingly great gifts and benefactions, of peace. Let us contemplate Him with our understanding, and look with the eyes of our soul to His long-suffering will. Let us reflect how free from wrath He is towards all His creation.
Are we to believe Christ, who Clement writes is free from wrath toward all His creation, is going to appoint His beloved Church to suffer at His own hand during the great day of His wrath? Scripture answers that question.
1st Thessalonians 5:9: For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Continuing with Clement's writings:
Chapter XXII - These Exhortations are Confirmed by the Christian Faith, Which Proclaims the Misery of Sinful Conduct.
Now the faith which is in Christ confirms all these admonitions. For He Himself by the Holy Ghost thus addresses us: "Come, ye children, hearken unto Me; I will teach you the fear of the Lord. What man is he that desireth life, and loveth to see good days? Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile. Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it. The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and His ears are [open] unto their prayers. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth. The righteous cried, and the Lord heard him, and delivered him out of all his troubles. Many are the stripes [appointed for] the wicked; but mercy shall compass those about who hope in the Lord."
The Lord looks upon His own, hears them when they cry out to Him, and delivers them out of their troubles! Wrath, the many stripes Clement refers to in the passage, is appointed to the wicked, not the righteous! Mercy encompasses those who hope in the Lord!
Continuing with Clement's writings:
Chapter XXIII - Be Humble, and Believe that Christ Will Come Again.
The all-merciful and beneficent Father has bowels [of compassion] towards those that fear Him, and kindly and lovingly bestows His favours upon those who come to Him with a simple mind. Wherefore let us not be double-minded; neither let our soul be lifted up on account of His exceedingly great and glorious gifts. Far from us be that which is written, "Wretched are they who are of a double mind, and of a doubting heart; who say, These things we have heard even in the times of our fathers; but, behold, we have grown old, and none of them has happened unto us. Ye foolish ones! compare yourselves to a tree: take [for instance] the vine. First of all, it sheds its leaves, then it buds, next it puts forth leaves, and then it flowers; after that comes the sour grape, and then follows the ripened fruit. Ye perceive how in a little time the fruit of a tree comes to maturity. Of a truth, soon and suddenly shall His will be accomplished, as the Scripture also bears witness, saying, "Speedily will He come, and will not tarry; " and, "The Lord shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Holy One, for whom ye look."
The Father is compassionate toward His own. Does this even have to be said? As Clement said, far be it from us that we be wretched like those who are of a double mind and a doubting heart where the mercies of the Lord are concerned! Let us come before the Lord with the simple mind of a child, filled with abundant faith and hope in His power to deliver us from darkness into light!
Continuing with Clement's writings:
Chapter XXVIII - God Sees All Things: Therefore Let Us Avoid Transgression.
Since then all things are seen and heard [by God], let us fear Him, and forsake those wicked works which proceed from evil desires; so that, through His mercy, we may be protected from the judgments to come. For whither can any of us flee from His mighty hand? Or what world will receive any of those who run away from Him? For the Scripture saith in a certain place, "Whither shall I go, and where shall I be hid from Thy presence? If I ascend into heaven, Thou art there; if I go away even to the uttermost parts of the earth, there is Thy right hand; if I make my bed in the abyss, there is Thy Spirit."Whither, then, shall any one go, or where shall he escape from Him who comprehends all things?
Clement certainly didn't seem to see the Church squaring off with the Antichrist in the Tribulation Period. Long before John Edward Darby supposedly cooked up the Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church, Clement was seeing a way for the Church to be protected from the judgments to come through a fearful respect of God and righteous living. How could Clement have thought that so long before 1830? Guess, naysayers!
The following section of Clement's writings is taken out of order as I want to close with it:
Chapter XLV - It is the Part of the Wicked to Vex the Righteous.
Ye are fond of contention, brethren, and full of zeal about things which do not pertain to salvation. Look carefully into the Scriptures, which are the true utterances of the Holy Spirit. Observe that nothing of an unjust or counterfeit character is written in them. There you will not find that the righteous were cast off by men who themselves were holy. The righteous were indeed persecuted, but only by the wicked. They were cast into prison, but only by the unholy; they were stoned, but only by transgressors; they were slain, but only by the accursed, and such as had conceived an unrighteous envy against them. Exposed to such sufferings, they endured them gloriously. For what shall we say, brethren? Was Daniel cast into the den of lions by such as feared God? Were Ananias, and Azarias, and Mishael shut up in a furnace of fire by those who observed the great and glorious worship of the Most High? Far from us be such a thought! Who, then, were they that did such things? The hateful, and those full of all wickedness, were roused to such a pitch of fury, that they inflicted torture on those who served God with a holy and blameless purpose [of heart], not knowing that the Most High is the Defender and Protector of all such as with a pure conscience venerate His all-excellent name; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. But they who with confidence endured these things are now heirs of glory and honour, and have been exalted and made illustrious by God in their memorial for ever and ever. Amen.
There are many who want to argue and fight about every manner of doctrine. As Clement put it aptly, we should look carefully into the Scriptures in order to confirm and preserve our faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord as it's through Scripture, not through the wisdom of men, that we find the true utterances of the Holy Spirit!
Those who choose to believe the Church is going to join the unrepentant world in suffering in the Tribulation Period need to reflect, as Clement did, on how the Church has suffered tribulation to this point.
There are two totally different types of tribulation we need to understand as Christians. The first type of tribulation comes to the Church by way of man's wickedness. The second kind of Tribulation is the kind those dwelling inside the Tribulation Period will have to endure. They are not one and the same!
Many today whose doctrines tell us the Church is going to be thrown into the Tribulation Period with the wicked tend to point to tribulations the Church has suffered at the hands of wicked mankind in the past as an example of Christ's willingness to let His Bride suffer at His own hand in the Tribulation Period that will come to test the whole earth. Ridiculous! It's like comparing a peach to a bowling ball!
As Clement put it, the Church has been persecuted, but only by the wicked. Members of the Church have been (and still are being) cast into prison, but only by the unholy! Members of the Church have been stoned, but only by transgressors! Members of the Church have been slain, but only by the accursed! Daniel wasn't cast into the lion's den by the Lord or anyone who feared the Lord. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego weren't placed in the fiery furnace by God, but by the wicked.
Clement credited the hateful and those full of wickedness for inflicting torture on those who served God with a holy and blameless purpose of heart in his day. He further indicated the wicked who did so failed to understand something about God Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego understood about Him - that He was the Defender and Protector of all those who trust in Him with a pure conscience.
Would the Lord have delivered Daniel from the lion's den if he'd had no faith in Him? Would the flames and smoke of the fiery furnace have stood back in the presence of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego if they'd had no faith in the Lord's ability to deliver them from it? I doubt it, which is precisely why those who are placing their trust in Jesus Christ to gather them to His side in a Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church are far more in touch with the God of the Bible than those who preach the Church is going to have to suffer alongside the wicked in the Tribulation Period.
It's interesting to me Clement spoke of Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the manner he did as a Post-Tribulational Rapture believer would point to those incidents as proof the Church is going to go through the Tribulation Period, but be protected.
If the faithful Church was going to have to endure the horrors of the Tribulation Period, there couldn't have been any finer examples than Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, whose stories of boldly overcoming tribulation are recorded in Daniel, chapters 6 and 3 respectively, right?
If the Church is going to have to suffer in the Tribulation Period as those holding a Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath, or Post-Tribulational Rapture doctrine would suggest, why did Christ Himself point to two men I spoke of earlier in the commentary, Noah and Lot, who were completely delivered from God's judgment, when speaking of the end times, as recorded in Luke 17:26-30?
I believe Clement understood there was going to be a Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church well ahead of John Darby allegedly dreaming the idea up in 1830. If so, it's not such a new idea after all, is it?
Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man. (LUKE 21:36)
Jesus told the people to always be on the watch. We as Christians should always be on the watch for Jesus will come like a THIEF IN THE NIGHT. Jesus also warns us WATCH AND PRAY LEST YOU ENTER INTO TEMPTATION. We as Christians should not let our guard down for when Jesus comes, we will be LEFT BEHIND. I believe that any believer can lose his/her salvation if they backslide and continue in their sin. As Christians we have to repent and turn away from our sins so that we can be ready and blameless at the time and hour of his coming - the Rapture. As I said earlier, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture lets Christians live for God NOW in expectancy of his coming. It is not a false security but allows Christians to live Holy lives.
Luke 21:36 tells us the same thing. ALL THAT IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN is obviously the Seven-year Tribulation so if Christians watch and pray and continue to live holy lives then we will be able to ESCAPE ALL THAT IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN. This is a great evidence for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture because the verse doesn't say ESCAPE FROM SOME OF WHAT'S ABOUT TO HAPPEN (Mid-Trib) OR EVEN NO ESCAPE FROM WHAT ABOUT TO HAPPEN (Post-Trib) BUT ALL OF THAT IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN (Pre-Trib).
THAT YOU MAY BE ABLE TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN means that after the Rapture you will be with Christ forever. This goes according to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 where we will Christ with Christ (the Lord) in the air and be with him forever. This verse also suggests the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST. After the Rapture we will stand before the Son of Man (Jesus Christ) and will be judged according to our works. Since the 24 literal human elders are wearing crowns in Revelation 4 and singing a song of redemption in Revelation 5 and the Tribulation starts in Revelation 6 then the Rapture is Pre-Tribulation. I love Luke 21:36!
Jesus told the people to always be on the watch. We as Christians should always be on the watch for Jesus will come like a THIEF IN THE NIGHT. Jesus also warns us WATCH AND PRAY LEST YOU ENTER INTO TEMPTATION. We as Christians should not let our guard down for when Jesus comes, we will be LEFT BEHIND. I believe that any believer can lose his/her salvation if they backslide and continue in their sin. As Christians we have to repent and turn away from our sins so that we can be ready and blameless at the time and hour of his coming - the Rapture. As I said earlier, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture lets Christians live for God NOW in expectancy of his coming. It is not a false security but allows Christians to live Holy lives.
Luke 21:36 tells us the same thing. ALL THAT IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN is obviously the Seven-year Tribulation so if Christians watch and pray and continue to live holy lives then we will be able to ESCAPE ALL THAT IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN. This is a great evidence for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture because the verse doesn't say ESCAPE FROM SOME OF WHAT'S ABOUT TO HAPPEN (Mid-Trib) OR EVEN NO ESCAPE FROM WHAT ABOUT TO HAPPEN (Post-Trib) BUT ALL OF THAT IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN (Pre-Trib).
THAT YOU MAY BE ABLE TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN means that after the Rapture you will be with Christ forever. This goes according to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 where we will Christ with Christ (the Lord) in the air and be with him forever. This verse also suggests the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST. After the Rapture we will stand before the Son of Man (Jesus Christ) and will be judged according to our works. Since the 24 literal human elders are wearing crowns in Revelation 4 and singing a song of redemption in Revelation 5 and the Tribulation starts in Revelation 6 then the Rapture is Pre-Tribulation. I love Luke 21:36!
Admittedly ideas of pre-trib belief may have existed before the 1800's but it was not in the form of the pre-trib rapture taught today, and neither was it popularised. Darby wasn't the first there was a guy in the 1750 or about then I forget who, but he popularised it. Why did he have to popularise it? BECAUSE IT WAS NOT A STANDARD DOCTRINE IN CHRISTIANITY UNTIL THEN. Luther didn't believe in it, Calvin didn't believe in it, there's few notable bible scholars or pastors
Which leads to the next point:
The idea that it is a clear teaching in scripture is entirely false. Otherwise every person who believed in "sola scriptura" since the reformation would have believed in it. A plain and simple reading of each chapter from beginning to end does not indicate any rapture event, which is why pre-tribbers have to do a bit of "bible jigsaw" fitting verses from one chapter into another etc in order to make their view fit.
It is also not clear in the early church writings. The pre-trib rapture idea is a specific doctrine which says that the saints will be caught up in the air and not be present on earth during the time of the tribulation period. Such an idea cannot be found in early church writings.
The examples you give support the post-trib view. Shadrach, Meshach etc in the fire had to go in the fire and were get safe through it. Noah was kept safe through the flood. Daniel was kept safe in the lions den.
Don't confuse the difference between being kept safe through the tribulation (post-trib) and being kept safe from the tribulation (pre-trib). The far majority of biblical examples given are God's people enduring through times of trial on earth -not being raptured into heaven prior to it. On that basis alone we can conclude that a post-trib scenario is more likely according to how God has revealed his ways in the old and new testaments. If you can show that Daniel was raptured to heaven before he could be thrown in the lions den, that would be proof of pre-trib rapture.
The pre-tribulation view says that somehow people will be saved on the earth during the tribulation, but this contradicts the pre-trib view that the Holy Spirit is removed from the church and that the church itself is removed. Unlike the left behind series scenarios, no one is going to be converting to christianity of their own free will if the Holy Spirit is removed, and there is no church to preach the gospel!!!! Big contradictions right there and there are more.
It seems you are looking through early church writings to gather whatever little evidence you can of this doctrine before the 1800's, when a more proper approach would be to look at each one in context , who the authors were and their personal beliefs, try and understand what they are really saying, before jumping to conclusions as "evidence" of pre-trib view (most of the early church writings including Clements are talking about the Lord's coming not some rapture before-hand). That is, if you are truly searching for the truth.
Last edited:
All early church writers were mid or post trib believers because they expected an imminent return of Christ, and this only after the antichrist rose to power. They were not waiting and watching for some pre-trib rapture, but were waiting and watching for the anti-christ which is the event to occur before Christ comes in the second coming (not rapture). This modern idea of a pre-tribulation rapture at any moment before the tribulation period is not found in any of their writings.
While it is possible for God to take people away as with Enoch, this is the exception to the norm and if so, a more biblical view would be that some would be taken like Enoch, and some left behind like Noah, according to God's choice. But this does not agree with the pre-trib view which says that all saints are raptured like Enoch. That is a very unlikely scenario.
While it is possible for God to take people away as with Enoch, this is the exception to the norm and if so, a more biblical view would be that some would be taken like Enoch, and some left behind like Noah, according to God's choice. But this does not agree with the pre-trib view which says that all saints are raptured like Enoch. That is a very unlikely scenario.
being kept from tribulation is what enoch who was born the same day petecost was was raptured out before the flood, but noah representative of jews had to be protected thru the flood,theres no getting around that easy to understand subject it will be exactly as it was in noahs days., the restrainor is the Holy spirit that is in the church the restrainors not completly removed hes held back and will still exist after the pretrib rapture it just reverts back to how it was in the OT he existed but didnt permanently indwell a saved person like he does in the church age, so after the rapture it goes back from grace to the ot way and they could lose salvation cause there not sealed like we are they can lose salvation by taking the mark also we cant it reverts back to the last 70th week in daniel, the Holy spirit is God and hes all places at all times omnipotent omnipresent so he isnt totally gone but the church will be and since hes in the church members bodies he will be held back in a way he wont permenently indwell or be sealed in them like he is us, these people after us are tribulation saints that get saved after the rapture there not church age saints theres clearly 2 diffrent sets of saints
This is an absurd statement. What is so freeing about believing a lie? Jesus Christ was post trib.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Oh so this pre-trib is mixed up with the "can't lose your salvation" idea?
We're just using one false doctrine to prop up another I think.
How can there be two different kinds of saints that is silly there's only one type of saint and that's a saved believer who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. If they aren't indwelt by the Spirit and under God's grace then they are not saints in any sense of the word nor saved.
The thing is, if the church is gone, there's no one to preach the gospel, and there's no one getting saved during the tribulation. Tribulation sinners are not going to be picking up and reading copies of "purpose driven life" by rick warren of their own will. I also find the pre-trib idea of those remaining behind as a kind of purgatorial punishment or cleansing to be contradictory to the "can't lose your salvation" idea and also contradictory to the whole idea of the Gospel in the first place.
The pre-trib idea is often used to warn other christians about being "left behind", and this leads to elitist class views within Christianity and spiritual pride - thinking to be worthy to be raptured before any tribulation, whilst your less than perfect brethren suffer the fate of the tribulation and need a time of purgatorial punishment on earth under the rule of the anti-christ to be taught a lesson.
As it was in Noah's day, he and his family were kept safe through the flood. They were not raptured from it. God told them to be build an ark. God may protect his saints on the earth via practical means or angels or let them suffer a martys death.
Well perhaps it is a test and those who preach a pre-trib rapture will be left behind when the real rapture occurs - during or after the tribulation starts.
We're just using one false doctrine to prop up another I think.
How can there be two different kinds of saints that is silly there's only one type of saint and that's a saved believer who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. If they aren't indwelt by the Spirit and under God's grace then they are not saints in any sense of the word nor saved.
The thing is, if the church is gone, there's no one to preach the gospel, and there's no one getting saved during the tribulation. Tribulation sinners are not going to be picking up and reading copies of "purpose driven life" by rick warren of their own will. I also find the pre-trib idea of those remaining behind as a kind of purgatorial punishment or cleansing to be contradictory to the "can't lose your salvation" idea and also contradictory to the whole idea of the Gospel in the first place.
The pre-trib idea is often used to warn other christians about being "left behind", and this leads to elitist class views within Christianity and spiritual pride - thinking to be worthy to be raptured before any tribulation, whilst your less than perfect brethren suffer the fate of the tribulation and need a time of purgatorial punishment on earth under the rule of the anti-christ to be taught a lesson.
As it was in Noah's day, he and his family were kept safe through the flood. They were not raptured from it. God told them to be build an ark. God may protect his saints on the earth via practical means or angels or let them suffer a martys death.
Well perhaps it is a test and those who preach a pre-trib rapture will be left behind when the real rapture occurs - during or after the tribulation starts.
Last edited:
S
How did you receive God's salvation in the first place? Didn't we receive salvation through Jesus Christ's work on the cross by grace and through faith when we were God's enemy, alienated from God through wicked works and dead in trespasses and sins? If God did not require anything from us but to believe and receive His salvation by faith, why are we now required not to let our guard down less we lose His salvation? How can a sinner whose has a sick head and desperately wicked heart have the ability to keep God's salvation that is perfect, righteous, holy and eternal? It is not possible! That is why God keeps it for us. We will always fall short of God's perfection because we have an old sin nature that has never been taken from us and will not be perfect in our experience until we receive our new glorified bodies. This is why we need the grace of God in everything and for everything.
The Holy Spirit has always been in the world, from the time of Creation to today. In the Old Testament He came at certain times to certain people for a certain purpose. In the New Testament He came in a brand new way, to indwell believers. At the rapture He will leave with the Church, however, during the Tribulation He will once again work as He did in the Old Testament. He will empower, strengthen and guide those who become believers. But He will no longer indwell as He does today.
If the Holy Spirit doesn't indwell a person then they are not a believer and not a saint. If they don't have the Spirit inside then they are not regenerated aka "born again" and cannot enter the Kingdom. Think about it. No, the old testament doesn't come back again !!! What Christ achieved lasts for all time and eternity since!
mathew 24 isnt ment for the Church thats a huge flaw in thinking and why so many are confused you cant just confuse church age saints with tribulation saints you cant blindly mix ot with nt cant mix verses not ment for us with verses ment for us you have to rightly devide the Word and if your not rightly deviding your not deviding at all your just picking and chosing verses outa context and verses not ment for us its certainly not how the bereans would do things.
Does Matthew 24 Refer to the Rapture or to
Jesus' Second Coming?
Many, many sincere Christians, many of whom I have great respect, believe that the Rapture is being presented in Matthew 24; and they believe it’s being presented two places in Matthew 24. Let me give you some background.
The Abomination of Desolation
In Matthew 24:15, Jesus refers to the abomination of desolation which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet back in Daniel 9:27.
Now, when you read Daniel 9:27, we are told there that the abomination of desolation will take place precisely in the middle of the seven-year Tribulation period—or on the basis of Daniel 9:27 you could call it the 70th week of Daniel 9, right in the middle of that 70th week of Daniel 9. In other words, the abomination of desolation will take place before the second three and a half years of that seven-year period of time.
Then, after saying the abomination of desolation will take place, Jesus warns the Jews who will be living in Israel at that time. He says, "When you see that abomination of desolation taking place,… then those who are in Judea should flee to the mountains." They should get out of there as fast as they can. He tells them why in verse 21: "for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world till this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened [literally "should be cut off"], there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be [cut off]."
What He is saying here is this: when the abomination of desolation takes place—in the middle of that seven-year period of time—that will be the starting point of what Jesus calls "the great Tribulation."
So the Great Tribulation will begin in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel 9 or, if you prefer, in the middle of the seven-year Tribulation period. And Jesus clearly indicates here in verses 21 and 22 that that Great Tribulation will be the unparalleled time of trouble in all of world history, the likes of which He said have not been since the beginning of the world, nor will ever be again in all of history. This will be the unparalleled time of trouble for planet Earth.
Who Are "The Elect" Jesus Refers to in Matthew 24:31?
I’m convinced this is referring to the elect of Israel and not to the Church elect or Church saints. The whole context of Matthew 24 is a Jewish context, not a Church context. Jesus, as we see in verse 15, speaking ahead of time to Jews of that future Tribulation period, said, "When you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in your holy place."
Well, who had the holy place? The Gentiles? No, the people of Israel did. That’s a reference to a temple of God in Israel. He said, "When you see the abomination of desolation… standing in your holy place, then let them which be in Judea [these are Jews living in their own land of Israel] flee into the mountains. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house," etc.
And then, in verse 20, He says to them that they really ought to be concerned that their flight not be on the Sabbath day: "But pray that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day." He’s talking here about Jews and how this will affect Jews. The whole context is a Jewish context.
And so I take it that the elect here are Jewish people whom He will gather together through His holy angels from the four winds, really the idea is from all four directions, under the heavens here on planet Earth back to their homeland of Israel in conjunction with His Second Coming.
MATHEW 24 ISNT THE CHURCH AGE ITS JEWS STUFF, this is why post trib is so flawed
Does Matthew 24 Refer to the Rapture or to
Jesus' Second Coming?
Many, many sincere Christians, many of whom I have great respect, believe that the Rapture is being presented in Matthew 24; and they believe it’s being presented two places in Matthew 24. Let me give you some background.
The Abomination of Desolation
In Matthew 24:15, Jesus refers to the abomination of desolation which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet back in Daniel 9:27.
Now, when you read Daniel 9:27, we are told there that the abomination of desolation will take place precisely in the middle of the seven-year Tribulation period—or on the basis of Daniel 9:27 you could call it the 70th week of Daniel 9, right in the middle of that 70th week of Daniel 9. In other words, the abomination of desolation will take place before the second three and a half years of that seven-year period of time.
Then, after saying the abomination of desolation will take place, Jesus warns the Jews who will be living in Israel at that time. He says, "When you see that abomination of desolation taking place,… then those who are in Judea should flee to the mountains." They should get out of there as fast as they can. He tells them why in verse 21: "for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world till this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened [literally "should be cut off"], there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be [cut off]."
What He is saying here is this: when the abomination of desolation takes place—in the middle of that seven-year period of time—that will be the starting point of what Jesus calls "the great Tribulation."
So the Great Tribulation will begin in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel 9 or, if you prefer, in the middle of the seven-year Tribulation period. And Jesus clearly indicates here in verses 21 and 22 that that Great Tribulation will be the unparalleled time of trouble in all of world history, the likes of which He said have not been since the beginning of the world, nor will ever be again in all of history. This will be the unparalleled time of trouble for planet Earth.
Who Are "The Elect" Jesus Refers to in Matthew 24:31?
I’m convinced this is referring to the elect of Israel and not to the Church elect or Church saints. The whole context of Matthew 24 is a Jewish context, not a Church context. Jesus, as we see in verse 15, speaking ahead of time to Jews of that future Tribulation period, said, "When you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in your holy place."
Well, who had the holy place? The Gentiles? No, the people of Israel did. That’s a reference to a temple of God in Israel. He said, "When you see the abomination of desolation… standing in your holy place, then let them which be in Judea [these are Jews living in their own land of Israel] flee into the mountains. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house," etc.
And then, in verse 20, He says to them that they really ought to be concerned that their flight not be on the Sabbath day: "But pray that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day." He’s talking here about Jews and how this will affect Jews. The whole context is a Jewish context.
And so I take it that the elect here are Jewish people whom He will gather together through His holy angels from the four winds, really the idea is from all four directions, under the heavens here on planet Earth back to their homeland of Israel in conjunction with His Second Coming.
MATHEW 24 ISNT THE CHURCH AGE ITS JEWS STUFF, this is why post trib is so flawed
- Status