Does God kill christians in judgement?

[PeterJens]

LaurenTM - ignore this man's insults against you. We are well-versed in how his mind works and how his behavior towards others has been well-documented. He is just trying to "bait" you with his remarks. Remember Rom. 16:17...

We are to just state our beliefs with scriptures and ignore the insults and bad behavior. All is well. The Lord will be faithful to all of us!

God bless you Grace777.

I know you think you are doing the right things pushing your theology.
I wish I could understand it better, but it completely passes me by.

Whenever there is a problem from scripture you wiggle around it, rather
than growing deeper in Christ and His understanding.

Why do you think a prophet was lied to by another prophet and the first
prophet was killed because he broke his instructions? God is not fair in
your concepts. Or is this too big a leap for you to make?
Can love and punishment walk hand in hand in your head?

 

[PeterJens]

We are to just state our beliefs with scriptures

Amen, if you can do this, that is great.
But unfortunately, when I come with the two passages, one from Paul and the
other from Peter it is just distortions.

Where on earth are your foundations?

 

[LaurenTM]

LaurenTM - ignore this man's insults against you. We are well-versed in how his mind works and how his behavior towards others has been well-documented. He is just trying to "bait" you with his remarks. Remember Rom. 16:17...

We are to just state our beliefs with scriptures and ignore the insults and bad behavior. All is well. The Lord will be faithful to all of us!

well no worries!!

when he starts insulting, you know you must have told the truth

 

[LaurenTM]

Thankyou Lauren. Your antipathy shows through very clearly.

I understand you think some principles that are clearly not scriptural, and any scriptures that
show this up must be wrong, is the definition of brain washing. If you want to show me why
I am wrong, then I am listening, but attacking me does not help this cause.

The church is mainly full of like minded people like me, and though some fall into the delusions
of the mystical which you hold to so dearly, life and spirituality soon break through.

One day you will learn about the discipline of the Lord, but then it will probably be too late.

The problem with theology and connections between ideas, you can imagine or absorb ones
from your own faith group, and simply only spot when someone holds a different set, but not
realise why.

Some of your past contributions have demonstrated how this is true for you.
God bless you, and I pray you will see truth through the words of Christ and His followers.
It is not complex but works with child like simplicity.

 

[LaurenTM]

I share what is my understanding and position. I am not right, I just want to point to what I see as the truth, but am happy if you can share something to make my life richer, and hopefully I can do likewise for you.

just a friendly reminder

 

[gb9]

not trying to be snarky, but why is anyone still responding to this guy?? we should pray for him, but sadly not engage him in conversation, he only wants to argue.

 

[LaurenTM]

PeterJens;2760480]Communion

I am surprised at Willie's words regarding have to think about Jesus dying, as if this is wrong.
The reason why this upsets me, is if I died, and my family commerated my death at the hands
of my enemies, they understood the price I paid and suffering.


translation: oh no. that was not supposed to happen. the truth is so confusing I was hoping to avoid it


To show the blood shed for the forgiveness of our sins, the body broken and pieced for our
offence and debt, if this does not make you sad, and thankful, I doubt you know the Lord
at all.

translation: I cannot understand myself, therefore, I doubt you do

Emotionally you guys are so far from the heart of God, is staggers me. In all of creation,
from the beginning of time to now, the greatest act is the King of Kings going to the cross,
suffering horrendous suffering and dying.

translation: I am now making one of my emotional appeals and hoping it camouflages my actual vitriol and creates sympathy for my deep and undying love for my opinions at the cost of slandering others who have tried to help me

The Turin Shroud shows a man whose back was ripped to shreds, to a degree with loss of
blood they would not survive 6 hours on the cross.

translation: here is another diversion to create yet more confusion. I was actually thinking of talking about 90's music, but thought that would be too obvious...besides, this is a religious thread

Now I have much to say the RCC fails, but contemplation on the cross and sin is not one
of them.

translation: I know the RCC is way off the charts wrong, but I would defend child slavery if I thought it helped my cause

 

[LaurenTM]

not trying to be snarky, but why is anyone still responding to this guy?? we should pray for him, but sadly not engage him in conversation, he only wants to argue.

it is genuine confusion

I know it is hard to think it so, but it is real

 

[JGIG]

I believe in the lake of fire, and those not found in the book of the lamb will be thrown into it.

The point I am making is simple. Some hold God does not discipline His people, at all. It is all
kid gloves, yet those found outside the cover of the lamb are given the worst punishment possible.

Let take a simple example, Moses. He did not honour the Lord in front of Israel so was not allowed
to enter the promised land.

Now this discipline is not loosing salvation, but it is very real, and relating to illness and death.
But this tastes so bad in the grace camp, they want to spit it out. But what is their justification
other than their heretical extreme view of grace and salvation? Nothing.

Just wow, Peter. Your view of God is sooooo distorted.

Originally Posted by PeterJens

The point I am making is simple. Some hold God does not discipline His people, at all. ​

WHO holds that God does not discipline His people at all?

YOU are advocating that God puts illness on and even KILLS His own children?!

A loving, functional earthly father would not even conceive of such a thing!

Yes - the Holy Spirit in me REJECTS such a notion - it is NOT TRUE.

Do God's children suffer natural consequences for sinning?

Yes. Get drunk and drive and you're likely to hurt/kill yourself or someone else. Be promiscuous and you will hurt yourself and others and likely contract some disease. You may even die at the hands of one driven by passion and jealousy. Eat too much, become obese, and suffer the health consequences which could include death. Do drugs, suffer the health and relational consequences or even die. Be a jerk and live selfishly and suffer the relational consequences - tick someone off enough and they might kill you!

ALL NATURAL CONSEQUENCES TO ACTIONS. And unfortunately, there are Christians who do the things listed above. But if they DIE, it's not God's judgement on them, it's simple cause and effect.

As for illness, we ALL, believers and unbelievers alike, live in a fallen world. Sometimes we get sick. Like my 11 year-old son who was diagnosed with metastatic brain and spine cancer last year. Are you really going to assert that GOD made him sick because of some sin in his life? REALLY? (For the random reader - our son is doing well, now, having been treated at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital - we are praying that his healing is complete and enduring!)

Originally Posted by PeterJens

It is all kid gloves, yet those found outside the cover of the lamb are given the worst punishment possible.​

Those who are in Christ are NOT OUTSIDE THE 'COVER OF THE LAMB'!

Peter! What are you thinking?!

Originally Posted by PeterJens

Let take a simple example, Moses. He did not honour the Lord in front of Israel so was not allowed
to enter the promised land.​

Moses was under the Law and not in Christ.

Originally Posted by PeterJens

Now this discipline is not loosing salvation, but it is very real, and relating to illness and death.
But this tastes so bad in the grace camp, they want to spit it out. But what is their justification
other than their heretical extreme view of grace and salvation? Nothing. ​

You are not talking about discipline - you are talking about God KILLING His children.

There is absolutely NO Scriptural evidence for this AT ALL. The examples you give do not say that GOD KILLS HIS CHILDREN. They relay deaths brought about by behavior. Whether Ananais and Sapphira were even believers is in question - they are not identified as believers, but as 'a certain man and his wife'. Whether or not they were believers, when confronted with the lie they were telling, they fell down dead. It does not say that God killed them. You're reading into the text.

KILLING is not discipline, it is PUNISHMENT.

What does SCRIPTURE have to say about punishment and the believer?

1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother. (1 Jn. 4)​

And this, from God Himself, speaking of the New Covenant in Christ:

“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.” (from Jer. 31, repeated in Heb. 8)​

And this, which says that God, in Christ, is not holding our sins against us:

18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. (from 2 Cor. 5)
​

Explain to us, PeterJens, how a God Who has promised to forgive our wickedness and remember our sins no more and is not counting our sins against us will kill believers in Christ for sins that He's forgiven and chosen to not remember and not counting against us?

The really sad thing is that God has given you a 'ministry of reconciliation' to share the Good News of the Gospel and build others up in Christ, but instead you relentlessly go about changing the Good News into Bad News and tear the believer down, preaching fear and judgement to those who are in Christ, loved by God, and should not be in fear of judgement (see 1 Jn. 4 above).

18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (from Jn. 3)​

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Here is a great post from JGIG about the discipline of the Lord and I think it applies here.

Quote:


God does not beat his children.

Godly discipline is training for the future, not punishment for our past.

An excellent teaching regarding this issue can be heard here (it addresses the Hebrews 12 'scourging' language):

Church Without Religion | By His Stripes Or Ours​

Please, please, please listen to it!

-JGIG

Unquote:

Here is the link for this post:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...e-deeper-look-hyper-stuff-31.html#post2729050

I hope the readers here will take the few minutes to listen to that message on Godly discipline - it is so good! Thanks for reposting the link!

-JGIG

 

[Grace777x70]

I hope the readers here will take the few minutes to listen to that message on Godly discipline - it is so good! Thanks for reposting the link!

-JGIG

I agree. It answers the "scouging" question perfectly. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. It fits in with the Father of the New Covenant that Jesus displayed to us all while on this earth perfectly.

 

[JGIG]

not trying to be snarky, but why is anyone still responding to this guy?? we should pray for him, but sadly not engage him in conversation, he only wants to argue.

Understood.

BUT . . .

When PeterJens comes out with an OP that so clearly distorts the character of God and the Truths of the Gospel, one needs to step up and correct the error for the young or fragile in Christ who come to CC's BDF to read.

I soooo don't have time for this - but could not remain silent on this thread.

-JGIG

 

[EarsToHear]

If you love and obey God, you have nothing to fear from Him. His enemies, however, have much to fear from Him

 

[UnderGrace]

I think Peter Jens you are trying to give this one account of Ananias and Sapphira a universal application and I do not think it is the purpose of the account.

God did not need to slay Ananias and Sapphira, He simply let them go to the death consequences of their sin. This account reveals the moment God granted their wish.

In His wisdom there are times when He must do so, but Jesus reveals that God is grieving when He does, like when Jesus lamented over Jerusalem.

I think the real problem is when we try to apply this individually and there is no ground to do so.

We only know that a specific individual died as a result of a specific judgment of God by divine revelation, which is what Peter seems to have received regarding Ananias and Sapphira.

Otherwise, Jesus teaches us that it is never our place to try to discern the hand of God in the way people die. We should keep our focus to our own lives, making sure that we are not heading down the road Ananias and Sapphira went down by pushing the Giver of life away.

The texts for this subject are


"Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?" ...... "When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died."
Sapphira lied - "At that moment she fell down at his feet and died."
Acts 5:3-10

Here is a statement by a believer who thinks this
"I don't believe in this age of grace in the New Covenant that God kills anyone or we would all be gone for something we have done wrong in our past."

Now after the cross, in front of Peter two die, in judgement for lying to the Lord.
Paul talks of God judging christians, not loosing their salvation, but being taken
for not honouring the Lord in a worthy manner.

Now if you are a hyper-legalist, you believe christians do this all the time, and
are in continual sin, so it seems wrong to judge out of context.

It suggests to me exactly the opposite. It suggests we walk in righteousness
and purity, but dishonouring Christ and the cross is cutting at the heart of our
relationship with Christ, and lying about something openly before God, is worthy
of extreme reaction to offence. This is testing the very authority of God and
His holiness, and treating it with disregard.

Personally I do not see how the scriptures can be contradicted and conclude
the hyper-legalists are wrong.

It is another example where talking about a Holy God being totally friendly while
believing people are sent to hell to be tortured for all eternity is ludicrous and self
deceiving. More so if these very believers do not change their lives at all other
than becoming believers in their sin being atoned for.

 

[PeterJens]

I think Peter Jens you are trying to give this one account of Ananias and Sapphira a universal application and I do not think it is the purpose of the account.

I am not interested in the details of Ananias and Sapphira. I am interested in those who
hold the Lord does not rebuke His people.

Revelation is talking about the churchs being judged and having there existance exstinguished.
Paul rebukes Corinth for its sin, he calls for a brother to be caste out so his spirit might be saved.

It is obvious hyper-grace fellowships hate the concept of rebuke. It all leads on from not
confronting anyone about sin, saying your conscience and the Holy Spirit never convict of sin.

The ethic is love and acceptance drives you onwards to love and follow. This is very true, but
we are called to walk without sin.

I am not surprised at the antagonism people have towards me just declaring what the Lord says.
I never thought these ideas were so controversial.

Lauren I know you regard me as your enemy just by your attempt at personality assassination.

God bless you sister. The pains in your life must be truly deep and so full for you to feel I am such
a challenge to deserve this approach. To know you are free you must see things from both perspectives
not just your own.

There is always another Jesus I could believe in, but I know His words and where His treasure is.
I wonder how many know their treasure is in heaven, not here on earth.

And we can become Gods enemies. How do you think the pharisees though so close to God yet got
blinded by their own failure, and the temptations of wealth, safety and power.

 

[LaurenTM]

Lauren I know you regard me as your enemy just by your attempt at personality assassination.

no sir

the Bible plainly states that we wrestle not against flesh and blood

we actually share the same enemy

that is where you fall short...you make and call others your enemy



anyway Peter, your entire post is one big pity party

that's what you do when people point out your error(s)...you make plaintive appeals for someone, anyone, to justify your shooting yourself in the foot over and over

when I think of the number of times you have written absolutely hateful things to myself and others and then when we chided you on it, you cried and bawled and said nobody loved you, I find your statement ridiculous and actually kind of pathetic

it is just your usual comeback response

first you strike out, then we defend, then you cry and whine

whatever

 

[PeterJens]

Dear all,

Eating communion unworthily, judgement.

You have failed to answer this point, because you think you have an answer to
Ananias etc. but not to Paul.

You claim so proudly "I know God, I know I am free etc." but here you are ignoring
Gods word. But I know you have left this model behind, bought into the hyper-grace
school. Now to give this up is too much. It is your God.

I know you follow a different faith, you make it clearer every day with your antagonism
towards me and not answering God.

Now if you can answer this passage, my foundation, then we part as friends. If you do not
answer this passage, we part enemies, because you are in rebellion against Gods word.

 

[UnderGrace]

Believers are called to rebuke false teachers, yes I agree.

The title of your OP is does God kill Christians in judgement, that is different than rebuking and even chastening.

So you need to decide which one you are placing forward as the topic of discussion, because from a scriptural point of view they are different and it would seem to me that now you want to put them all together.

I am not interested in the details of Ananias and Sapphira. I am interested in those who
hold the Lord does not rebuke His people.

Revelation is talking about the churchs being judged and having there existance exstinguished.
Paul rebukes Corinth for its sin, he calls for a brother to be caste out so his spirit might be saved.

It is obvious hyper-grace fellowships hate the concept of rebuke. It all leads on from not
confronting anyone about sin, saying your conscience and the Holy Spirit never convict of sin.

The ethic is love and acceptance drives you onwards to love and follow. This is very true, but
we are called to walk without sin.

I am not surprised at the antagonism people have towards me just declaring what the Lord says.
I never thought these ideas were so controversial.

Lauren I know you regard me as your enemy just by your attempt at personality assassination.

God bless you sister. The pains in your life must be truly deep and so full for you to feel I am such
a challenge to deserve this approach. To know you are free you must see things from both perspectives
not just your own.

There is always another Jesus I could believe in, but I know His words and where His treasure is.
I wonder how many know their treasure is in heaven, not here on earth.

And we can become Gods enemies. How do you think the pharisees though so close to God yet got
blinded by their own failure, and the temptations of wealth, safety and power.

 

[PeterJens]

I hope the readers here will take the few minutes to listen to that message on Godly discipline - it is so good! Thanks for reposting the link!

-JGIG

Listened to Andrew Farley. This is just a continual repetition of forgiven for sin
done once for all. So ofcourse future sin is forgiven, so there can be no judgement
for bad behaviour like Ananias or eating communion without due respect.

It does not answer the question at all, it is just a distraction.

The enemy will always say, listen to your model of God not the word of God.

But you only know if you walk correctly in the Lord is through the word of God
in your heart.

 

[PeterJens]

Believers are called to rebuke false teachers, yes I agree.

The title of your OP is does God kill Christians in judgement, that is different than rebuking and even chastening.

So you need to decide which one you are placing forward as the topic of discussion, because from a scriptural point of view they are different and it would seem to me that now you want to put them all together.

UnderGrace - Being honest I do not know how much the Lord judges His people, but I have
known He does. It is not something people should fear, but the Lord in His grace removes
people, changes circumstances because though they often seem very commited they loose
focus or get things so wrong.

Jack Frost was a man used greatly by God. He was preaching on the effect of love and hurt
in a believer left from their parents. A powerful subject, something I empathise with 100%.
Yet he got cancer and died. He believed God would heal Him.

Now for me it is not important to understand each situation, but to understand the Lord organises
things according to His will.

As soon as someone says this simplistic view is always true, is almost always wrong.
So I explore ideas, subjects, see how far they go.

How does God involve himself in this world, not to bring total judgement and total healing
but temporary judgement and temporary healing.

But obviously some think this idea is evil, though it is obviously all around us.

What is so difficult in our age is we have so much, education, books, health, clean water,
clean food, jobs, shelter but for most of christian history you were fortunate to make it to
30 years old.

But then grace and love when talking about Gods word seems hard for people to come by.