I believe in the lake of fire, and those not found in the book of the lamb will be thrown into it.
The point I am making is simple. Some hold God does not discipline His people, at all. It is all
kid gloves, yet those found outside the cover of the lamb are given the worst punishment possible.
Let take a simple example, Moses. He did not honour the Lord in front of Israel so was not allowed
to enter the promised land.
Now this discipline is not loosing salvation, but it is very real, and relating to illness and death.
But this tastes so bad in the grace camp, they want to spit it out. But what is their justification
other than their heretical extreme view of grace and salvation? Nothing.
Just wow, Peter. Your view of God is sooooo distorted.
Originally Posted by PeterJens
The point I am making is simple. Some hold God does not discipline His people, at all.
WHO holds that God does not discipline His people at all?
YOU are advocating that God puts illness on and even KILLS His own children?!
A loving, functional earthly father would not even conceive of such a thing!
Yes - the Holy Spirit in me REJECTS such a notion - it is NOT TRUE.
Do God's children suffer natural consequences for sinning?
Yes. Get drunk and drive and you're likely to hurt/kill yourself or someone else. Be promiscuous and you will hurt yourself and others and likely contract some disease. You may even die at the hands of one driven by passion and jealousy. Eat too much, become obese, and suffer the health consequences which could include death. Do drugs, suffer the health and relational consequences or even die. Be a jerk and live selfishly and suffer the relational consequences - tick someone off enough and they might kill you!
ALL NATURAL CONSEQUENCES TO ACTIONS. And unfortunately, there are Christians who do the things listed above. But if they DIE, it's not God's judgement on them, it's simple cause and effect.
As for illness, we ALL, believers and unbelievers alike, live in a fallen world. Sometimes we get sick. Like my 11 year-old son who was diagnosed with metastatic brain and spine cancer last year. Are you really going to assert that GOD made him sick because of some sin in his life? REALLY? (For the random reader - our son is doing well, now, having been treated at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital - we are praying that his healing is complete and enduring!)
Originally Posted by PeterJens
It is all kid gloves, yet those found outside the cover of the lamb are given the worst punishment possible.
Those who are in Christ are NOT OUTSIDE THE 'COVER OF THE LAMB'!
Peter! What are you thinking?!
Originally Posted by PeterJens
Let take a simple example, Moses. He did not honour the Lord in front of Israel so was not allowed
to enter the promised land.
Moses was under the Law and not in Christ.
Originally Posted by PeterJens
Now this discipline is not loosing salvation, but it is very real, and relating to illness and death.
But this tastes so bad in the grace camp, they want to spit it out. But what is their justification
other than their heretical extreme view of grace and salvation? Nothing.
You are not talking about discipline - you are talking about God KILLING His children.
There is absolutely NO Scriptural evidence for this AT ALL. The examples you give do not say that GOD KILLS HIS CHILDREN. They relay deaths brought about by behavior. Whether Ananais and Sapphira were even believers is in question - they are not identified as believers, but as 'a certain man and his wife'. Whether or not they were believers, when confronted with the lie they were telling, they fell down dead. It does not say that God killed them. You're reading into the text.
KILLING is not discipline, it is PUNISHMENT.
What does SCRIPTURE have to say about punishment and the believer?
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother. (1 Jn. 4)
And this, from God Himself, speaking of the New Covenant in Christ:
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.” (from Jer. 31, repeated in Heb. 8)
And this, which says that God, in Christ, is not holding our sins against us:
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. (from 2 Cor. 5)
Explain to us, PeterJens, how a God Who has promised to forgive our wickedness and remember our sins no more and is not counting our sins against us will kill believers in Christ for sins that He's forgiven and chosen to not remember and not counting against us?
The really sad thing is that God has given you a 'ministry of reconciliation' to share the Good News of the Gospel and build others up in Christ, but instead you relentlessly go about changing the Good News into Bad News and tear the believer down, preaching fear and judgement to those who are in Christ, loved by God, and should not be in fear of judgement (see 1 Jn. 4 above).
18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (from Jn. 3)
-JGIG