Eternal Security You CANNOT lose your salvation! by David J. Stewart | January 2004
- Thread starter kevan1234
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
It is impossible.
Does God know you?
Does he know that you truly love him, therefore he will protect you?
Does he know that you will walk away from him, so he doesn't protect you and let's you walk away.
Is anything impossible with God?
When I gave my life to Jesus, I knew he was real, I knew I belonged to him.
I still feel that way today.
No one can take me away from him.
I know I am saved forever.
God puts that feeling inside of me.
How about you?
Do you question your salvation?
If so, why?
What are you missing in your relationship with God.
As one writer in the Bible put it, "and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever".
The way I feel is backed up in Scripture.
Does God know you?
Does he know that you truly love him, therefore he will protect you?
Does he know that you will walk away from him, so he doesn't protect you and let's you walk away.
Is anything impossible with God?
When I gave my life to Jesus, I knew he was real, I knew I belonged to him.
I still feel that way today.
No one can take me away from him.
I know I am saved forever.
God puts that feeling inside of me.
How about you?
Do you question your salvation?
If so, why?
What are you missing in your relationship with God.
As one writer in the Bible put it, "and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever".
The way I feel is backed up in Scripture.
Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
At the great white throne judgment only condemned souls appear there and all are not found in the Lambs book of life so they are cast into the lake of fire.
We as believers are part of the host that witnesses the judgment of the lost.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
There is another verse I'm trying to recall but it slips my ever shortening memory right now.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
At the great white throne judgment only condemned souls appear there and all are not found in the Lambs book of life so they are cast into the lake of fire.
We as believers are part of the host that witnesses the judgment of the lost.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
There is another verse I'm trying to recall but it slips my ever shortening memory right now.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I'm here so I'm going to persist just this one last time.
YOU'RE RIGHT!
Everything you say about us not being judged and appearing only before the judgement seat of Christ is correct and we'll be judged only for our works, etc etc.
This is not what I'm talking about.
I think you need to study JUSTIFICATION a little more.
When you are JUSTIFIED you are SAVED.
It is being made right with God.
It is being accepted by God.
It is because of Christ's perfect obedience that it can be obtained.
By Christ's death on the cross.
It cannot be earned.
it is a free gift of God's grace.
We receive it by repenting.
We receive it by faith.
We are redeemed.
We are freed from sin.
We receive eternal life.
We become free from condemnation.
We go on to live a life of holiness (sanctification)
I hope you read up on it a bit more. Any study bible, or even the internet. It's an important concept.
Fran
YOU'RE RIGHT!
Everything you say about us not being judged and appearing only before the judgement seat of Christ is correct and we'll be judged only for our works, etc etc.
This is not what I'm talking about.
I think you need to study JUSTIFICATION a little more.
When you are JUSTIFIED you are SAVED.
It is being made right with God.
It is being accepted by God.
It is because of Christ's perfect obedience that it can be obtained.
By Christ's death on the cross.
It cannot be earned.
it is a free gift of God's grace.
We receive it by repenting.
We receive it by faith.
We are redeemed.
We are freed from sin.
We receive eternal life.
We become free from condemnation.
We go on to live a life of holiness (sanctification)
I hope you read up on it a bit more. Any study bible, or even the internet. It's an important concept.
Fran
AMEN to that....JESUS<---I WILL NEVER leave you or FORSAKE YOU
Paul<---NOTHING can separate us from the LOVE of God
Hebrews<--HOPE...a CONFIDENT expectation of SOMETHING GUARANTEED
JOHN<---BORN of INCORRUPTABLE SEED
GOD<--WHATSOEVER GOD DOES IT IS EVERLASTING
JESUS<---I GIVE UNTO THEM ETERNAL LIFE and NO MAN can PLUCK them out of MY HAND
JESUS<--ALL that the FATHER gives me I WILL LOSE NOTHING, BUT WILL raise it up the last day
The bible teaches eternal security...end of story!
Paul<---NOTHING can separate us from the LOVE of God
Hebrews<--HOPE...a CONFIDENT expectation of SOMETHING GUARANTEED
JOHN<---BORN of INCORRUPTABLE SEED
GOD<--WHATSOEVER GOD DOES IT IS EVERLASTING
JESUS<---I GIVE UNTO THEM ETERNAL LIFE and NO MAN can PLUCK them out of MY HAND
JESUS<--ALL that the FATHER gives me I WILL LOSE NOTHING, BUT WILL raise it up the last day
The bible teaches eternal security...end of story!
I agree with you. I also feel saved and safe in the arms of the Lord. There's no way I'd get to be in God's presence if it depended on me. I fail so many times and I know it.
It's been many years that Jesus spoke to me and I don't see how I could ever desert Him.
But does this mean it's impossible?
Why did both Jesus and the Apostles, incl Paul, beg us to live a Godly life and to hold firm till the end, and all those other warnings if it's not possible to lose salvation? Why waste their breath? it seems to me that if they did this, then they did it for a reason - to keep us safe and make us understand that we're to hold on.
Fran
It's been many years that Jesus spoke to me and I don't see how I could ever desert Him.
But does this mean it's impossible?
Why did both Jesus and the Apostles, incl Paul, beg us to live a Godly life and to hold firm till the end, and all those other warnings if it's not possible to lose salvation? Why waste their breath? it seems to me that if they did this, then they did it for a reason - to keep us safe and make us understand that we're to hold on.
Fran
I am saved the moment I receive Gods grace imputing to me the righteousness of His Son Jesus Christ. I am redeemed and I am justified by grace.
I have salvation first followed by justification then followed by glorification.
Saved first the sin debt paid. Justified that the law no longer has dominion over me. One day when my journey is done I will receive my glorified body and dwell in the presence of the Lord forever.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I have salvation first followed by justification then followed by glorification.
Saved first the sin debt paid. Justified that the law no longer has dominion over me. One day when my journey is done I will receive my glorified body and dwell in the presence of the Lord forever.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I wasn't going to answer but the "end of story" got to me! Sorry.
It's not the end of the story!
Would you like to take one verse at a time?
I'm not going to throw verses back and forth. it's a waste of time.
Would you care to answer WHY Jesus and the Apostles placed so much attention on WORKS (sorry!) IF they aren't important? On enduring to the end? On holding fast to one's faith? On not falling away?
Do you think the early church Father's knew this doctrine of OSAS? Or do you suppose it came about after John Calvin was born?
Instead of throwing verses around, could you answer the above? OR, we could take one verse at a time.
Fran
It's not the end of the story!
Would you like to take one verse at a time?
I'm not going to throw verses back and forth. it's a waste of time.
Would you care to answer WHY Jesus and the Apostles placed so much attention on WORKS (sorry!) IF they aren't important? On enduring to the end? On holding fast to one's faith? On not falling away?
Do you think the early church Father's knew this doctrine of OSAS? Or do you suppose it came about after John Calvin was born?
Instead of throwing verses around, could you answer the above? OR, we could take one verse at a time.
Fran
You have no verses Roger.
Let me help you and others here that have no answers.
The judgment seat of Christ is mentioned only once, 2 Corinthians 5:10;
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad".
And the great white throne judgment is only mentioned once in Scripture,.
Revelation 20:11-15;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. [SUP]13 [/SUP]The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
NIV - Bible Gateway
So the question becomes "What is the difference between the two and are they separate events?"
My contention is that NO!, they are not separate events.
We all appear before the great white throne judgment.
The difference being that we have Jesus as our advocate, and his mercy seat saves us from eternal damnation.
Let me help you and others here that have no answers.
The judgment seat of Christ is mentioned only once, 2 Corinthians 5:10;
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad".
And the great white throne judgment is only mentioned once in Scripture,.
Revelation 20:11-15;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. [SUP]13 [/SUP]The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
NIV - Bible Gateway
So the question becomes "What is the difference between the two and are they separate events?"
My contention is that NO!, they are not separate events.
We all appear before the great white throne judgment.
The difference being that we have Jesus as our advocate, and his mercy seat saves us from eternal damnation.
****I think it is hard to lose your salvation----staying saved should not be a struggle----having free will gives us a choice to serve God or not.. Does the Bible Teach Eternal Security? - Enrichment Journal
Your post early on was very chaotic.I would never have answered you under those conditions.
So where were we about MacArthur, there is so much to say.
Oh yes, Lordship doctrine.
Whew!
Kind of big to tackle by such a little man as me.
And it would derail this thread.
If you wish to start a new thread on MacArthur, I bet a lot of other knowledgeable people would join in.
So where were we about MacArthur, there is so much to say.
Oh yes, Lordship doctrine.
Whew!
Kind of big to tackle by such a little man as me.
And it would derail this thread.
If you wish to start a new thread on MacArthur, I bet a lot of other knowledgeable people would join in.
Nothing you say will negate the eternal security found in the scriptures....sorry...context solves all issues and verb tense proves it....so....I could care less about Calvin, could care less what any so called (church fathers) said, taught or believed as there is no such thing......Jesus started his church, instructed his church and finalized those instructions dia the inspired word of GOD not church fathers........so.....no need to try and convince me that one can lose salvation....it is impossible....END OF STORY!
Not the people I went to seminary with. In theology, we discussed soteriology at length. When we talked about Calvinism, people ranged from 1 point Calvinism to 5 point. But all did believe in eternal security. I'm not sure which point the one pointer agreed with. There were also quite a few 2 1/2 pointers, which I was at that time. Although I have changed on that point, since then.
I suppose there were some at my seminary who did not believe in eternal security at all. We had several charismatics and Pentecostals, But somehow, the arguments were never vicious. Yep, most of those students were pretty loving. We had quite a few Reformed, Lutherans, Mennonites (another group who usually are Arminian) Anglicans, non-denoms, etc at my seminary. We had a really good reputation in the Christian Community in Canada. Very high standards theologically, but no one forced to sign a statement of faith, or kicked out if they didn't agree with certain things. And I never imagined things could be disputed they way they are in the BDF. A good learning lesson, here!
Even in my Greek class, I know more about heresies (I'm talking JW's, Mormans, etc) than anyone in my class, except the professor. And some of the men have been in ministry a long time. I guess CC has really had me sharpen that iron!
YES, as heart-breaking as it is, there are those who truly Love their Saviour, with what
I will call, 'all of their hearts', because, this is what the scriptures tell me, this is what I have read,
'over-and-over',- BUT, as 'heart-breaking' as this is, there truly are 'those' who say that they Love Him,
but seem to most always 'forsake' HIM, at their personal-cost of 'getting their own way'...!!!
for many, even after being given Spiritual knowledge they will choose to TURN-AWAY from what they have
been blessed with and even shown what 'PURE LOVE IS'...this is just one way of showing how powerful
satan's ways are...we are a very 'weak-species', and can only be 'empowered' by The Holy Spirit,
when we accept His ways, and submit to His ways, in ALL THINGS...
I will call, 'all of their hearts', because, this is what the scriptures tell me, this is what I have read,
'over-and-over',- BUT, as 'heart-breaking' as this is, there truly are 'those' who say that they Love Him,
but seem to most always 'forsake' HIM, at their personal-cost of 'getting their own way'...!!!
for many, even after being given Spiritual knowledge they will choose to TURN-AWAY from what they have
been blessed with and even shown what 'PURE LOVE IS'...this is just one way of showing how powerful
satan's ways are...we are a very 'weak-species', and can only be 'empowered' by The Holy Spirit,
when we accept His ways, and submit to His ways, in ALL THINGS...
If you aren't a Catholic, have you at least studied theology? That would be a good starting point for you.
"Salvation, in Roman Catholicism, is a process with many steps: Actual Grace, Faith, Good Works, Baptism, Participation in the Sacraments, Penance, Indulgences, and Keeping the Commandments. Basically, salvation is attained through baptism and good works. It is maintained by good works and participation in the sacraments. If lost, it is regained through the sacrament of Penance which only a Roman Catholic priest can administer. Add to this purgatorial cleansing after a person dies, and you can see that salvation is an arduous process.In Catholicism, a person can gain salvation and lose it many times depending on the number of sins committed, their severity, and how much of the sacraments they participate in--in order to regain grace which enables them to do good works by which they are justified. Furthermore, justifying grace is infused into the Catholic upon baptism and via the sacraments. This grace can be gradually lost through venial sins or forfeited all together with mortal sins."
https://carm.org/catholic-salvation-attain
As far as justification, it is the end point that counts in the RCC and Orthodox churches. in other words, Baptism is all very well and good in infants, but in fact, if you grow up and fall away from the church (maybe not God?) then you lose your justification. Justification in the Protestant church is the initial experience when God saves, forgives and redeems. Permanent justification, again, is something that happens at the end of a Catholics' life, and they do not know if they have accomplished it or not. Hence the need for the Eucharist on the death bed of Catholics. I watche with grief and sadness as a beloved uncle went through this vicious cycle of needing the Eucharist daily, to keep him "sanctified" on his death bed.
"Broadly speaking, Catholic and Orthodox Christians distinguish between initial justification, which in their view occurs at baptism, and permanent justification, accomplished after a lifetime of striving to do God's will."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justification_(theology)
"What Sungenis is saying is that Christ's death merely appeased God's anger against man. He persuades God to relent of his anger and to offer a means of forgiveness to man. And that means is through man's own works cooperating with the grace of God. Grace is not the activity of God in Christ purchasing and accomplishing full salvation and eternal life and applying this to man as a gift. And it is not a completed work. Rather, grace is a supernatural quality, infused into the soul of man through the sacraments, enabling him to do works of expiation and righteousness. These works then become the basis of justification. In the Roman theology of justification there is an ongoing need to deal with sin in order to maintain a state of grace, and a need for positive acts of righteousness, which originate from that grace and then become the basis for one’s justification. So man’s works must be added to the work of Christ, in particular, the work of the sacraments. Consequently, justification is not a once–for–all declaration of righteousness based upon the imputed righteousness of Christ, but a process that is dependent upon the righteousness of man produced through infused grace."
http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/RCJustification.html
I read a lot of Catholic on-line sources, too. They are very subtle, but here is one statement that really shows us the "sanctification by works." Please note how quickly we suddenly can have "merit" not just for ourselves but others. I had a Catholic friend once, who constantly talked about how her actions were going to result in her wayward and philandering husband being saved. I also finally cut off contact with her, since I could not justify her insane sexual exploits as being anything Christian.
"Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions."
If you read the Catholic documents, they do sound quite Protestant, until you begin to see the exceptions to the rule. Which basically means, as I said before, although Catholics are justified at water baptism, the entire thing is based on the church, and the relationship with the church. Not Jesus or the Holy Spirit, although they pay lip service to him. A terrible monument to how a hierarchy can totally twist the Bible. And whle the Arminians say we can walk away from God, Catholics maintain we can and do walk away, but it is the church that is necessary to bring us back, over and over and over again.
Last edited:
Which seminary are you attending or attended? Sounds fascinating. I love studying God's word, but I can't go to classes for health reasons so I settle on bible studies online.
I thought maybe you were separating in your list the Eternal Security group from the Calvinists.
The four pointers I know of don't agree with the limited atonement part, but other 4 pointers might take issue with a different part of the tulip.
And I've seen Dispensationalist that don't agree with all of the tulip and some who don't agree with any of the tulip. Personally, I just don't like labels and don't claim one.
It would be so nice here if we could learn to respect one another when we disagree.
Personally, I like the term 'assurance of salvation' - I think it explains our standing in the Lord a little more accurately.
I do believe believers can apostasize, that people can leave the faith. Jesus said there would be a great apostasy before the end.
But I also think that there's a difference in how God sees things and how we see them. God clearly knows those who are His. We can be deceived in thinking we're saved and walking in the truth.
Those who who truly love the Lord will walk in obedience. I don't believe we can continue to live a life of sin and think we'll be saved as some teach.
The strange sad thing is that some Calvinists I speak with don't know if they're one of the chosen or not so they don't know if they're truly saved.
I think the difference from seminary and here if that you are, as a student placing yourself under a teacher who knows and has studied the scriptures in depth. The student normally automatically respects the teacher.
Here we have disciple to disciple all learning and growing in the Lord without the respect we should have for each other. But we also have unbelievers in here and probably some tales as well. It's a prescription for explosive attitudes me thinks.
- Status