Eternal Security You CANNOT lose your salvation! by David J. Stewart | January 2004

[FranC]

****I think it is hard to lose your salvation----staying saved should not be a struggle----having free will gives us a choice to serve God or not.. Does the Bible Teach Eternal Security? - Enrichment Journal

I agree.
Simply said and well said.
I'm not going to the link, I hope it reinforces what you've said...

 

[FranC]

Your post early on was very chaotic.I would never have answered you under those conditions.
So where were we about MacArthur, there is so much to say.
Oh yes, Lordship doctrine.
Whew!
Kind of big to tackle by such a little man as me.
And it would derail this thread.
If you wish to start a new thread on MacArthur, I bet a lot of other knowledgeable people would join in.

Will do. But it does seem to have to do with this topic.
And will provide some requested verses for you soon when at computer...

Fran

 

[FranC]

Your post early on was very chaotic.I would never have answered you under those conditions.
So where were we about MacArthur, there is so much to say.
Oh yes, Lordship doctrine.
Whew!
Kind of big to tackle by such a little man as me.
And it would derail this thread.
If you wish to start a new thread on MacArthur, I bet a lot of other knowledgeable people would join in.

No Allen
I don't think my post was chaotic!
Care to take it piece by piece?

Fran

 

[AllenW]

No Allen
I don't think my post was chaotic!
Care to take it piece by piece?

Fran

HELP!

Who is MacArthur and what does he teach?
so many teachers, so little time ---

Fran
I consider this chaotic.
I know a good doctor who will converse with you in private messages.
His name is Dr. Frasier Crane.

 

[notuptome]

You have no verses Roger.
Let me help you and others here that have no answers.
The judgment seat of Christ is mentioned only once, 2 Corinthians 5:10;
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad".

And the great white throne judgment is only mentioned once in Scripture,.
Revelation 20:11-15;

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. [SUP]13 [/SUP]The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
NIV - Bible Gateway

So the question becomes "What is the difference between the two and are they separate events?"
My contention is that NO!, they are not separate events.
We all appear before the great white throne judgment.
The difference being that we have Jesus as our advocate, and his mercy seat saves us from eternal damnation.

Clearly they are separate and they are quite different. At the great white throne all who stand before it are condemned and cast into the lake of fire.

At the judgment seat of Christ all are saints and only their works are judged not the saints themselves. No condemnation no souls cast into eternal perdition.

1 Cor 3:11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is a good synopsis of "Lordship salvation" as it is sometimes taught. The term itself is not bad. It's what is added to it that creates problems.

[video=youtube;msWsC0srUas]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msWsC0srUas[/video]

 

[notuptome]

We serve the Lord Jesus because we are saved. We do not serve the Lord Jesus to be saved or to remain saved. There can be no peace in the heart that fears eternal condemnation. Christ gives us peace and peace that passes all understanding.

We are to rejoice in the Lord and again I say rejoice.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[FranC]

Nothing you say will negate the eternal security found in the scriptures....sorry...context solves all issues and verb tense proves it....so....I could care less about Calvin, could care less what any so called (church fathers) said, taught or believed as there is no such thing......Jesus started his church, instructed his church and finalized those instructions dia the inspired word of GOD not church fathers........so.....no need to try and convince me that one can lose salvation....it is impossible....END OF STORY!

Dcontroversal,
I see you care about nothing except what YOU personally believe. This is interesting because to come to any conclusion, one must STUDY scripture AND the early church fathers. It's History. You know, like if you want to know about the United States, you don't start from 2016, you start from way back in the 1600's. SAME FOR CHRISTIANITY. it didn't just start NOW.

You said that Jesus started His chuch, instructed His church, and finalized those instructions with the Word of God.

Good. So what happened in the time between Jesus' ascension and the bible being written in the 300's??

Did you know tha Ignatius of Antioch knew John the Apostle personally and spent time with him and learned many things from him? He was an early church Father. Do you think Mr. Calvin or anyone today know MORE about what Jesus taught than John the Apostle OR Ignatius? There are many more you may want to read about. Have you ever thought of this?

I don't care to convince YOU.

I just pray those reading along will look into doctrine and not just accept what sounds GOOD to them because it suits them in some way that does not agree with the EARLY CHURCH, which, in my humble opinion, is the CORRECT church since it was not stained with all this modern stuff we hear today.

Fran

 

[RomansToPhilemon]

You guys can't agree on salvation because you aren't rightly dividing the word of truth. Salvation in the dispensation of Grace isn't contingent on our performance. Only in Israel's gospel did they have to continue in good works to be saved. In our dispensation, our justification and sanctification comes immediately after we believe and trust the truth. After that, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Sealed unto the day of redemption.

I love when people used James as their proof text to prove works salvation. The interesting thing about James is, that it's not written to us lol. Read the first verse in the book haha. James 1.1

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

So when did you become part of the 12 Tribes of Israel? Are you a Hebrew? I hope not, because when you become a member of the body of Christ, you lose your identity and become a NEW creature. Neither Jew nor Gentile.

Works salvation people want to earn their own righteousness because they don't think Christ's cross work is good enough to save them. That's why they try to perfect their flesh after salvation. The bible has a verse for them. (actually it has many)

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

They love to try to perfect their flesh...

 

[FranC]

If you aren't a Catholic, have you at least studied theology? That would be a good starting point for you.

"Salvation, in Roman Catholicism, is a process with many steps: Actual Grace, Faith, Good Works, Baptism, Participation in the Sacraments, Penance, Indulgences, and Keeping the Commandments. Basically, salvation is attained through baptism and good works. It is maintained by good works and participation in the sacraments. If lost, it is regained through the sacrament of Penance which only a Roman Catholic priest can administer. Add to this purgatorial cleansing after a person dies, and you can see that salvation is an arduous process.In Catholicism, a person can gain salvation and lose it many times depending on the number of sins committed, their severity, and how much of the sacraments they participate in--in order to regain grace which enables them to do good works by which they are justified. Furthermore, justifying grace is infused into the Catholic upon baptism and via the sacraments. This grace can be gradually lost through venial sins or forfeited all together with mortal sins."

https://carm.org/catholic-salvation-attain


As far as justification, it is the end point that counts in the RCC and Orthodox churches. in other words, Baptism is all very well and good in infants, but in fact, if you grow up and fall away from the church (maybe not God?) then you lose your justification. Justification in the Protestant church is the initial experience when God saves, forgives and redeems. Permanent justification, again, is something that happens at the end of a Catholics' life, and they do not know if they have accomplished it or not. Hence the need for the Eucharist on the death bed of Catholics. I watche with grief and sadness as a beloved uncle went through this vicious cycle of needing the Eucharist daily, to keep him "sanctified" on his death bed.

"Broadly speaking, Catholic and Orthodox Christians distinguish between initial justification, which in their view occurs at baptism, and permanent justification, accomplished after a lifetime of striving to do God's will."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justification_(theology)

"What Sungenis is saying is that Christ's death merely appeased God's anger against man. He persuades God to relent of his anger and to offer a means of forgiveness to man. And that means is through man's own works cooperating with the grace of God. Grace is not the activity of God in Christ purchasing and accomplishing full salvation and eternal life and applying this to man as a gift. And it is not a completed work. Rather, grace is a supernatural quality, infused into the soul of man through the sacraments, enabling him to do works of expiation and righteousness. These works then become the basis of justification. In the Roman theology of justification there is an ongoing need to deal with sin in order to maintain a state of grace, and a need for positive acts of righteousness, which originate from that grace and then become the basis for one’s justification. So man’s works must be added to the work of Christ, in particular, the work of the sacraments. Consequently, justification is not a once–for–all declaration of righteousness based upon the imputed righteousness of Christ, but a process that is dependent upon the righteousness of man produced through infused grace."

http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/RCJustification.html

I read a lot of Catholic on-line sources, too. They are very subtle, but here is one statement that really shows us the "sanctification by works." Please note how quickly we suddenly can have "merit" not just for ourselves but others. I had a Catholic friend once, who constantly talked about how her actions were going to result in her wayward and philandering husband being saved. I also finally cut off contact with her, since I could not justify her insane sexual exploits as being anything Christian.

"Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions."


If you read the Catholic documents, they do sound quite Protestant, until you begin to see the exceptions to the rule. Which basically means, as I said before, although Catholics are justified at water baptism, the entire thing is based on the church, and the relationship with the church. Not Jesus or the Holy Spirit, although they pay lip service to him. A terrible monument to how a hierarchy can totally twist the Bible. And whle the Arminians say we can walk away from God, Catholics maintain we can and do walk away, but it is the church that is necessary to bring us back, over and over and over again.

Hi Angela,
Not only have I sudied theology, I taught in the Catholic Chruch. Does this make me a Catholic? No. Because I don't agree with Catholic doctrine.

Now, you've given me much to read up above, and I really don't want to since this thread is not about what you're writing to. If you care to go over it piece by piece, I'm willing, but maybe in a different thread or by Pm. Your choice.
I know the difference in Justification in both Catholicism and Ptorestantsim. Let me just say quickly, Catholics are taught that they are justified at infant baptism, BUT THAT AT SOME POINT IN THEIR ADULT LIFE THEY MUST ACCEPT THAT JUSTIFICATION.

To me, AT THIS POINT, they become saved and are truly JUSTIFIED.

As to sanctification: I do not agree with your initial statement - I'd have to study it more. Both Catholics AND Protestants believe the same about sanctification excepth the Catholics like to mix up both concepts a bit more.

Justification is an act of GOD.
Sanctification is an act of cooperation between God and man.

This can be read of in detail in CCC no.1987 to 2005
and especially no. 1996 to 2002, which is here for anyone who may be interested:

II. GRACE


1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.[SUP]46

[/SUP]
1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.


1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.[SUP]47

[/SUP]
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:[SUP]48

[/SUP]
Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.[SUP]49

[/SUP] 2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.


2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"[SUP]50[/SUP]
Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.[SUP]51

[/SUP] 2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:


If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.[SUP]52[/SUP]

Fran

 

[Grace777x70]

Not all scripture is written directly "to" us but all scripture has been written "for" us as the Holy Spirit reveals Christ to us in them. Don't take someone else's medicine. There is no conflict with James with any other epistle in the NT.

Paul writes to the Ephesians - are you an Ephesian? When did you become an Ephesian?

We learn from what Paul wrote to the Ephesians just like we learn from what James wrote to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. James's calling was to the Jews so he wrote to them specifically.

2 Timothy 3:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

 

[FranC]

Here is a good synopsis of "Lordship salvation" as it is sometimes taught. The term itself is not bad. It's what is added to it that creates problems.

[video=youtube;msWsC0srUas]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msWsC0srUas[/video]

Hi Grace,
I never go to links, but I did in your case.
CHRISTIANITY IS BECOMING TOO COMPLICATED!!

I can hardly talk about it anymore. Now it's Lordship Salvation. Never heard of it.
I did hear Jesus say in Mathew 5:3-8 that we are to transform ourselves into new beings.

What the person in the video was sounding like toward the end was a JW!
Christians are NOT JW's!!

We are not to have an external change, but an internal change.
We ARE to be "good" people, to follow Jesus' example.
Up above I wrote a whole post on what it means to BELIEVE in Jesus.
It doesn't mean to believe in Him in some obscure way, but, indeed, to FOLLOW Him.
James 1:21-23

Romans 12:2 tell us that we are to transform our minds. To present our bodies a LIVING sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is our SPIRITUAL SERVICE. So that we may be acceptable to God.

Luke 6:46 "Why call me Lord, Lord, and do not the things I say?" Jesus expects us to do what He taught!

But some today make this sound scary. I think this is why it is so abhored by some that they almost come to the point of saying that we could do whatever we want to and STILL BE SAVED. This is just not true when one studies the entire N:T. as a whole book and does not pluck out verses as we've become accustomed to doing

Here, simply, is what I like to say:
We DO our best,
Jesus does the rest.

He does indeed save us. We are indeed going to sin. Sin does not make us lose our salvation. We confess the sin and it's gone. Some today will say CONFESSION is a work! Things are becoming silly, I fear. Some fear the word WORKS.

It's a GOOD WORD! We SHOULD BE DIFFERENT from the rest of the world! This does not mean we're lost if we are unable to reach some lofty goal. Jesus will always have our back, but this DOES NOT mean that we should not do our best.

I don't know how else to explain this.
WORKS DO NOT SAVE US.
But we SHOULD do works AFTER salvation, as James, most probably the Apostle and brother of Jesus commands us.
James 2:14-20 where he states that Faith without works is dead. There is a DEAD FAITH.

Who knows better?
James or modern day preachers??

Fran

 

[FranC]

You guys can't agree on salvation because you aren't rightly dividing the word of truth. Salvation in the dispensation of Grace isn't contingent on our performance. Only in Israel's gospel did they have to continue in good works to be saved. In our dispensation, our justification and sanctification comes immediately after we believe and trust the truth. After that, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Sealed unto the day of redemption.

I love when people used James as their proof text to prove works salvation. The interesting thing about James is, that it's not written to us lol. Read the first verse in the book haha. James 1.1

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

So when did you become part of the 12 Tribes of Israel? Are you a Hebrew? I hope not, because when you become a member of the body of Christ, you lose your identity and become a NEW creature. Neither Jew nor Gentile.

Works salvation people want to earn their own righteousness because they don't think Christ's cross work is good enough to save them. That's why they try to perfect their flesh after salvation. The bible has a verse for them. (actually it has many)

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

They love to try to perfect their flesh...

No PERFECTION in this world!

So the rules are only for the Jews?
What do you make of Mathew 5:17-20?

And could you please explain quickly the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant?
If you're NOT IN the New Covenant, are you still saved??

Fran

 

[AllenW]

Here is a good synopsis of "Lordship salvation" as it is sometimes taught. The term itself is not bad. It's what is added to it that creates problems.

[video=youtube;msWsC0srUas]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msWsC0srUas[/video]

Thank you Mr. Grace.
That was very good.
and it would also be good as a followup to an OP on MacArthur if one should want to pursue it.
I have to admit I would need to study to say what was said in these short 4 minutes.
Worth a listen to for everyone.

 

[RomansToPhilemon]

Not all scripture is written directly "to" us but all scripture has been written "for" us as the Holy Spirit reveals Christ to us in them. Don't take someone else's medicine. There is no conflict with James with any other epistle in the NT.

Paul writes to the Ephesians - are you an Ephesian? When did you become an Ephesian?

We learn from what Paul wrote to the Ephesians just like we learn from what James wrote to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. James's calling was to the Jews so he wrote to them specifically.

2 Timothy 3:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

d

No. Paul doesn't write just to Ephesians. You are using title's of the books to make an argument; I'm actually using the scriptures in the books. Paul tells you who he is writing to. Each and every time in his epistles. Let's take a look.

Ephesians 1.1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Eph 2.11

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Eph 3.1

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles

Paul constantly addresses who he is speaking to all throughout his epistles.

Rom 11.13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

 

[Grace777x70]

Thank you Mr. Grace.
That was very good.
and it would also be good as a followup to an OP on MacArthur if one should want to pursue it.
I have to admit I would need to study to say what was said in these short 4 minutes.
Worth a listen to for everyone.

They do have good intentions but unfortunately what these end up doing is watering down the gospel out of the fear that people will not follow Christ in them and they actually end up creating a false gospel of "doing things in order to be saved or maintain salvation as in being with the Lord for eternity - joined as one spirit with Him." They do not understand the "why" behind the gospel in the first place.

There are warnings in the scriptures that admonish us to not walk by the flesh as this will cause trouble in this life. To works-based salvationists mindsets - this they translate into meaning "You go to hell now" because you have followed the flesh.

When we really see what the works of the flesh are - no person on earth would ever be in heaven of they had to not do any of them.

Watering down the gospel creates a "works-based mindset" no matter how many different flavors we give it.

 

[Grace777x70]

d

No. Paul doesn't write just to Ephesians. You are using title's of the books to make an argument; I'm actually using the scriptures in the books. Paul tells you who he is writing to. Each and every time in his epistles. Let's take a look.

Ephesians 1.1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Eph 2.11

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Eph 3.1

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles

Paul constantly addresses who he is speaking to all throughout his epistles.

Rom 11.13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Look at the brown above in your post. Paul wrote to the Ephesians - to a select group of people. That message he gave to the Ephesians - the Holy Spirit uses to reveal the things of God to us.

Paul does the same thing in all his epistles.

1 Thessalonians 1:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.


Amen....Paul as sent to the Gentiles. James was sent to the Jews like Peter and John were. That is the reason James says he is writing to those that he was sent to the 12 tribes scattered abroad - the Jews.

 

[RomansToPhilemon]

Hi Grace,
I never go to links, but I did in your case.
CHRISTIANITY IS BECOMING TOO COMPLICATED!!

Who knows better?
James or modern day preachers??

Fran

The bible gives us an exact definition of what faith is. SO there has to be no subjective truth to the matter. It's objective because of the text tells us exactly what faith is. Lets read:

Hebrews 11.1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So you can have your own "personal" view of what faith is. Just as the bible has it's own interpretation of what faith is. I will takes Christ's interpretation of what faith is, over any mans and mainline tradition.

So lets read Rom 8.24. It has more to say on the matter of this hope, faith, evidence of things not seen.

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Gal 3.11

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

I could go on and on and on with pages of how Paul's message is not Peter's message. Peter preached a different gospel than Paul. This is the beginning of understanding the bible correctly. Rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Grace777x70]

The bible gives us an exact definition of what faith is. SO there has to be no subjective truth to the matter. It's objective because of the text tells us exactly what faith is. Lets read:

Hebrews 11.1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So you can have your own "personal" view of what faith is. Just as the bible has it's own interpretation of what faith is. I will takes Christ's interpretation of what faith is, over any mans and mainline tradition.

So lets read Rom 8.24. It has more to say on the matter of this hope, faith, evidence of things not seen.

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Gal 3.11

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

I could go on and on and on with pages of how Paul's message is not Peter's message. Peter preached a different gospel than Paul. This is the beginning of understanding the bible correctly. Rightly dividing the word of truth.

I agree with everything you said here - except of the fallacy that Peter preached a different gospel than Paul.

We have word for word accounts of both Peter and Paul preaching the gospel and it is bang on exactly the same thing.

Acts 10 for Peter and Acts 13 for Paul.

 

[John146]

The bible gives us an exact definition of what faith is. SO there has to be no subjective truth to the matter. It's objective because of the text tells us exactly what faith is. Lets read:

Hebrews 11.1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So you can have your own "personal" view of what faith is. Just as the bible has it's own interpretation of what faith is. I will takes Christ's interpretation of what faith is, over any mans and mainline tradition.

So lets read Rom 8.24. It has more to say on the matter of this hope, faith, evidence of things not seen.

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Gal 3.11

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

I could go on and on and on with pages of how Paul's message is not Peter's message. Peter preached a different gospel than Paul. This is the beginning of understanding the bible correctly. Rightly dividing the word of truth.

Like what Aquila and Priscilla did:

26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

The Apostle Paul was given the full revelation of salvation through Jesus Christ. It was a more perfect, complete message than what Peter was given.